THINKING ANGLICANS

more about those ordinations

Last Saturday there was this piece on the Today radio programme, which I missed at the time (hat tip AM)

A church in London has had three of its priests ordained by a foreign bishop, in protest at the Church of England’s stance on homosexual relationships. We hear from the church’s minister, Reverend Richard Coekin, and the Rt Reverend John Gladwin, the Bishop of Chelmsford.

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Martin Reynolds
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I am away from my desk for several months but picked up this story just as I was leaving. My first thoughts are for the three new Deacons in the Church of England in South Africa. I rejoice these men feel called to serve God in the ordained ministry and pray their lives as ministers of God will be blessed and that His Kingdom will be served through them. I see that those trained at Oakhill have the confidence of the staff there and this must be a great reassurance to them in the circumstances. I will be praying for… Read more »

Tobias S Haller BSG
Guest

I was a bit taken aback when this story first surfaced, as the early press reports led with news of a “South African Bishop” — only much later in the article clarifying that this was a bishop from the separatist Church of England in South Africa. Perhaps the London group should now be called the Church of England in South Africa in England?

Alan Marsh
Guest
Alan Marsh

“Everything they do is aimed at provoking a reaction to them”

This might indeed be said of LGCM, Changing Attitude, Affirming Catholicism, etc etc. Or are there different sauces for the goose and for the gander?

LGCM is quick to promote the fact that it arranges considerable numbers of blessing services for gay unions in defiance of local bishops. One might have expected approval for those who in their own tradition are not willing to conform to diocesan rules?

Dave
Guest
Dave

It’s the ol’ “authority of Scripture vs authority of the Bishop” game again! Like Martin I hope +Southwark will look for a compromise way out..

Making a martyr of Rev Coekin can’t be very appealing !

But, maybe just maybe, this will be the catalyst for a solution, rather than the end of the CofE as a broad church ? Another nail in the coffin of geographical dioceses anyone ? (Though I think Reform has fewer fans in the heirachy than FiF had!)

J. C. Fisher
Guest

Thanks, Tobias, for that clarification (knowing the fine leadership in SA by +Njongonkulu Ndungane, those early reports didn’t make sense to me, either).

Jake
Guest

I didn’t realize that the CESA was not recognized as part of the Communion. That puts a different spin on the situation, doesn’t it? By using a CESA bishop, the recommendation of the WR to stop trespassing does not apply, at least in regards to the bishop. However, it does seem to suggest that Reform does not hold the WR in very high esteem. Or is such an act of ecclesiastical disobedience justified by claiming they were forced to take these drastic measures in response to the disobedience of those with whom they disagree? Out of curiosity, is Reform advocating… Read more »

Augustus Meriwether
Guest

He just can’t stop regurgitating that ridiculous ‘in the name of political correctness’ soundbite, can he? I didn’t realise Reform just had a conference (see their website: http://www.reform.org.uk/ )Coekin was one of the speakers there. The conference ended THE DAY BEFORE this ordination by the Bishop of the schismatic ‘The Church of England in South Africa’ (which is not in communion with the CofE – so surely they are now deacons in that church not the CofE and have just excommunicated themselves from the CofE?). At the conference, they ‘welcomed’ a briefing paper called ‘The Ways Forward in the Present… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

Parishes and Dioceses have always been Territorial.

And the principle of non-interference is in the 8th Canon of the Ecumenical Council Nicea of 325, I believe ;=)

No Lambeth resolution will ever beat that!

Peter
Guest
Peter

For once I agree with Goran. Let us, like the Eastern churches, much more strictly adhere to the Ecumenical Councils. Though I have the impression that the Swedish revisionist prefer to (in his country’s tradition) use the Councils in a “smorgasbord” fashion!

Alan Marsh
Guest
Alan Marsh

So, Goran, AM, there can be no way of justifying the Reformation?

BTW, Goran, you need to read the Canons of Nicaea again.

Alan Marsh
Guest
Alan Marsh

The noble example set by Athanasius: “After Constantine’s death, as his Arianizing son Constantius became master, first of the East and then (in 350) of the whole Roman Empire, imperial policy shifted from conciliation to coercion of the adherents of Nicea, and these shifts continued down to the final defeat of Arianism in 381. As time went on, the whole Church became divided over the question, with bishop opposing bishop. Athanasius was willing, as the conflict intensified—in his case, as early as the mid-340s—to intervene unilaterally in dioceses whose bishops were Arians or compromisers. The historians Socrates and Sozomen, writing… Read more »

Augustus Meriwether
Guest

I don’t think it makes any sense comparing the English Church at the reformation with the ‘Reform’ network of a few disgruntled fundamentalist ‘reasserters’ in today’s hugely accomodating Church of England.

Their clinging on to the CofE whilst rejecting it’s authority and kicking it in the shins is just futile and destructive and everyone is going to lose in the end. Why not do something constructive like forming their own church where they can do as they wish.

Granted the CofE pinched Rome’s buildings, but looking at what a burden they have become, it seems it was a big mistake.

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

Peter wrote: “For once I agree with Goran. Let us, like the Eastern churches, much more strictly adhere to the Ecumenical Councils. Though I have the impression that the Swedish revisionist prefer to (in his country’s tradition) use the Councils in a “smorgasbord” fashion!”

No, it’s the Greeks that do that ;=)

Canons are valid when recieved locally.

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

Alan March wrote: “So, Goran, AM, there can be no way of justifying the Reformation?”

Don’t look at me, I am Church of Sweden.

And as to Athanasius… surely, two wrongs don’t make one right?

Sean Doherty
Guest
Sean Doherty

Although I disagree with most of the territorial interference currently taking place, it’s worth pointing out that the canons of the council of Nicaea also forbid bishops from moving from one see to another. Hardly obeyed today yet I see nobody complaining.

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

Canons of Nicea 325: http://www.ourcatholicfaith.org/docs/ECUM01.htm This would be it (by inference as always): 8th Canon “… but when some come over in places where there is a Bishop of presbyter belonging to the Catholic Church, it is evident that the bishop of the Church will hold the bishop’s dignity, and that the one given the title and name of bishop among the so-called Cathars, will have the rank of Presbyter, unless the Bishop thinks fit to let him share in the honours of the title. But if this is not met with approval, the Bishop will provide for him a… Read more »

Kurt
Guest
Kurt

Gimme a break, Alan Marsh. How many times have you recited the Athanasian Creed this year? Another good reason to consign it to “Historical Documents of the Church”!

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

The Athanasian Creed?

Is not by Athanasius himself, but Carolingian, only ever used in convents.

That’s what we’ve been told by someone very much in favour with Benedict ;=)

Dave
Guest
Dave

It’s the ol’ “authority of Scripture vs authority of the Bishop” game again! But the authority of Bishops rests primarily on the authority of the Bible and Tradition. So, as they walk away from the Bible and Tradition they destroy their own authority. I presume this is why liberals in ECUSA focus so much on their Canons – as the only source of authority left to them.

They’re just *making it up as they go along* !

Peter
Guest
Peter

The responses by our revisionist “catholic” CofS friend, and selective user of the fathers (i.e. Goran), says it all. Nitty, gritty arguments that are worlds away from the sources he is using to support his innovations. This would not have gone very far at any of the Councils!

Alan Marsh
Guest
Alan Marsh

Who mentioned the Athanasian Creed? I was pointing out that the great saint took positive action to provide catholic clergy in provinces where the existing hierarchy had become corrupt. An excellent precedent for what is having to happen in modern times. Canon 8 is concerned with the reconciliation of heretics who wish to return to the Catholic church. The part of Canon 8 which Goran did not quote (!) is this: “But before all this it is fitting that they give a written undertaking that they will accept and follow the decrees of the catholic church” – which is roughly… Read more »

Augustus Meriwether
Guest

-skulks in, sheepishly-

Look, I’m really bad at checking dates, OK!!!

A nice gentleman has pointed out to me that the Reform conference on their website was LAST year.

Still, they are clearly playing out the strategy laid out there. As it is to the day last year though, I’m wondering when this years conference was/is? Have they just had it on the quiet? Anyone know?

-flounces out, pouting-

John Henry
Guest
John Henry

Alan Marsh wrote: “Meanwhile neighboring bishops will seek, like Athanasius, to provide orthodox clergy for the faithful whose shepherds have become heretical.”

Who says the Bishop of Southwark has become ‘heretical’? Last time I reviewed the C. of E. Canons there is a canonical process to make that determination. The neo-Puritans are just ‘foaming from their mouths’, making false accusations. That much for evangelical truthfulness!

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

Alan Marsh,

Pray, when did tea and bisquits at Lambeth become “the decrees of the Catholic Church”?

And “excellent precedence”. To you, but not to others…

Rebellion is rebellion.

And don’t blame us for the Reformation, we never were very Roman in the first place (witness: Melanchtthon’s Tractatus papae was never acknowledged in Sweden) ;=)

Alan Marsh
Guest
Alan Marsh

JH, I wonder when you did last “review” the CofE’s canons? You would have to look very hard – the procedure for the trial of clergy accused of heresy is not in the canons. There is no effective method of taking a bishop to court for such things, although attempts have been made to introduce one in the General Synod. In the absence of such a procedure, people will respond in other ways – as they have done. Nobody mentioned tea and biscuits at Lambeth, Goran. I assume that the fathers at Nicaea meant conformity with the creeds. A pity… Read more »

Sean Doherty
Guest
Sean Doherty

No Goran it’s nothing to do with the Cathars but Canon 15:

“On account of the great disturbance and the factions which are caused, it is decreed that … neither bishops nor presbyters nor deacons shall transfer from city to city. If after this decision of this holy and great synod anyone shall attempt such a thing, or shall lend himself to such a proceeding, the arrangement shall be totally annulled”

Ray
Guest
Ray

Augustus Meriwether wrote about Reform “I’m wondering when this years conference was”

The conference was recently held Oct 31 to Nov 2. The final day’s bible study was delivered by the now unlincenced Richard Coekin and this was followed by an address by Martin Morrison of CESA. They then dashed off to Surbiton to carry out their illegal ordinations.

The discussion paper for this year’s conference was “Reform in Every Region” has anyone seen this yet?

Kurt
Guest
Kurt

“Pray, when did tea and bisquits at Lambeth become “the decrees of the Catholic Church”?–Göran Koch-Swahne

Right on, Goran! Some of our cousins on the other side of the pond can’t take a Yankee joke, I guess.

The ordinations of the three deacons may be valid–though irregular–but can the ABC, or other Church authorities, prevent their functioning in the CofE beyond their little lily pad? Congregationalist deacons?

Merseymike
Guest
Merseymike

Sounds as if they are going to be pretty central in establishing the Protestant Reformed Evangelical Church of Lagos and Alexandria on these shores.

Kurt
Guest
Kurt

“Sounds as if they are going to be pretty central in establishing the Protestant Reformed Evangelical Church of Lagos and Alexandria on these shores.”–Merseymike You are absolutely right, Mike! The neo-Puritans have been doing the same thing in the United States for some time now–importing bishops to do their will. I’m glad that the Bishop of Southwark is standing up to them! In the American Church, a priest can be charged with “abandonment of communion” and defrocked if s/he persists in refusing to recognize the proper authority of the Bishop of the Diocese. Hopefully, you have something very similar in… Read more »

steven
Guest
steven

Merseymike and Kurt: More name-calling? I gave up on calling you guys revisionists in the interest of encouraging more peaceful relations, yet you still insist on calling traditionalists/conservatives “neo-puritans”. As previously noted, this might cover some, but by no means most traditionalists. And, as far as I’m concerned, it is a pejorative. (I’m sure any Anglo-Catholics posting would agree). How about “Reasserters”? I’ve heard some liberals use this term, and it seems pretty inoffensive to me (but maybe I’m missing something). Steven P.S.-Puritans did not historically have much use for Bishops. It seems unlikely that folks that pay so much… Read more »

steven
Guest
steven

Merseymike and Kurt:

Hmm. I’m trying to think of a way of explaining this to you a little bit better. Would you be insulted if I consistently referred to all LBGTs as “trannies” or transexuals? The term may not be offensive in itself, but the consistent and irresponsible lumping of disparate peoples together under a single rubric that is largely erroneous is innately insulting. I hope the comparison helps. Its the only analogy I can think of on short notice.

Steven

Kurt
Guest
Kurt

“Puritans did not historically have much use for Bishops. It seems unlikely that folks that pay so much attention to the need for Bishops could be categorized as “neo-puritans”.–steven That’s why we term them “neo”-Puritans. No, they are not exactly like John Winthrop of 1630s Massachusetts. A number of Calvinists were willing to put up with bishops, prayer books, etc. if they could dictate the content. That’s what contributed to the English Civil War. Besides, these Bible Colleges are not exactly Cambridge or Harvard. I have never met an American Anglican priest who was trained in a Bible College in… Read more »

Alan Marsh
Guest
Alan Marsh

Oak Hill Theological College is one of the episcopally-recognised Theological Colleges of the Church of England. Perhaps the difficulty for Kurt is that the sort of seminaries he has in mind don’t use the bible at all? And no, there is nothing whatever that can be done to prevent the new deacons from functioning as ordained ministers in England. If they had been ordained by the Bishop of Southwark they would have been subject to the canon law, but he chose not to ordain them…. And no, unlike the bishops of ECUSA who make a canon mean whatever they want… Read more »

Kurt
Guest
Kurt

Oh, pleeeeezze, Alan. Individuals who are charged with violating Canon Law in the American Church have at least as much due process as those so charged in the UK. Get real.

From your remarks, I take it that these newly minted irregular deacons can function as ministers in England but not as CofE clergy. That is, they can function as Dissenters but not as Anglicans. Is that correct?

Sean Doherty
Guest
Sean Doherty

I am disturbed by the gross slur on the Puritans made by some here.

Merseymike
Guest
Merseymike

Let’s hope Oak Hill joins Akinola too….

Alan Marsh
Guest
Alan Marsh

Kurt, There are a number of clergy in the USA who have been threatened or deposed without trial and without due process under the “abandonment” canon, including some who are still in post in ECUSA parishes. That is the reality. We do not have Dissenters in England but we have a variety of Anglicans – ordained in a variety of provinces, including the former colonies, as well as Scotland, Wales and Ireland. Strictly speaking only the English Church should use the term Anglican, but others lay claim to it… “Anglican” is not a trade mark or copyrighted in any way… Read more »

Dave
Guest
Dave

“Questionable Theological College”

It wouldn’t be a bad idea to have a review process for theological staff in all CofE colleges. Why should we tolerate folk who teach our ordinands against the faith and doctrine of the CofE, or who attack or undermine Christian faith and morality ?

steven
Guest
steven

Sean:

Some of my best friends and family are “puritans” in the sense of being staunch Calvinists, with all that implies. I’m not agin’ puritans. I just don’t like people trying to lump all traditionalists together under that label.

Steven

Merseymike
Guest
Merseymike

If ECUSA is derecognised and thus no longer in communion with Canterbury, then it wouldn’t be Anglican.

But I don’t think that is likely to happen.

The churches outside the Communion are not Anglican although they may use the name.

There are certainly plenty of ways to Jesus which aren’t through Canterbury, but thats a requirement to be Anglican.

Amanda
Guest
Amanda

Steven

I entirely agree with your general point about lumping people under rather perjorative labels.

But just for the record, the term ‘trannies’ is regarded as highly offensive by most transsexuals.

steven
Guest
steven

Amanda:

Thanks for the info. There is obviously a fair amount of rock throwing around here. The site provides a wonderful forum to debate issues, but the tendency to name-calling does nothing to improve dialog or understanding.

Steven

Kurt
Guest
Kurt

“Kurt, There are a number of clergy in the USA who have been threatened or deposed without trial and without due process under the “abandonment” canon, including some who are still in post in ECUSA parishes. That is the reality.” –Alan Marsh Rubbish! Those rebellious clergy are getting as full due process as possible considering their militant non-cooperation with the Clerical and Lay Authorities of their Diocese. Non-recognition, non-cooperation, non-compliance are certainly time- honored methods of non-violent resistance to what one opposes. However, one must also be prepared to accept the consequences of such non-cooperation—e.g. defrocking. As to what is,… Read more »

Simon Sarmiento
Guest

Yes, less rock throwing please, all around.

Dave
Guest
Dave

Dear Amanda, A transexual relative of ours started calling herself (previously himself) a “trannie grannie” when his first grandchild was born… confused ?

Alan Marsh
Guest
Alan Marsh

Kurt, there ought to be no need to rehearse here the recent events in a series of dioceses across the USA. There are a number of clergy who have not been given the opportunity to answer complaints or charges, still less make representations, who have been summarily defrocked, or threatened with deposition which still in post. This has not been carried out according to the normal disciplinary procedures, but by resorting to a canon designed to deal with the situation where a cleric has joined the communion of another church – principally the RC Church. It is itself defective in… Read more »

Sean Doherty
Guest
Sean Doherty

Steven – sorry about my poor joke which confused you. I was actually referring to people who referred to some evangelicals as “neo-Puritans”.

Amanda
Guest
Amanda

Hi Dave, No, thats not confusing at all. My comment comes from being in a relationship with a ts woman, and of discussing this topic on a web group with over 500 ts members. The term ‘tranny’ is commonly used as an insult by gangs who intend to intimidate or commit hate crimes, it also has strong associations with cross-dressers, rather than ts folk. Therefore it is a term strongly disliked by most (but not necessarily all). However, as is also the case with gays/lesbians, terms which are quite unacceptable when used by strangers/acquaintances are perfectly OK used in an… Read more »

Dave
Guest
Dave

Dear Amanda, the wierd thing was that when we wrote to him after his announcement that he wanted to be perceived as a woman – to say that we loved him, even though we didn’t agree with him (and that we hoped that he could do the same towards us) he was really pleased..

It seems that, though we are convinced evangelical Christians with strong conservative convictions on sexual morality, our response was better than most of the relatives!