Thinking Anglicans

A Church Asunder redux

The press column in the Church Times last week discussed the New Yorker article. The best reason though for linking to what Andrew Brown said about it is because that way I can show you the cartoon that illustrated the original article.

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Cheryl Clough
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At the risk of being naughty (TA might want to delete this post), but I couldn’t help but laugh over this line: “The point is that it made Christianity seem more fun and more exciting than The Da Vinci Code…” It reminds me of a sermon my departed minister gave about Thessalonians late last year, where the Thessalonians’ conversion was like a bomb going off: “1Th 1:8 The Lord’s message rang out from you not only in Macedonia and Achaia—your faith in God has become known everywhere. Therefore we do not need to say anything about it” Which the minister… Read more »

Dave
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Dave

As I didn’t contribute on this one last week, here are a couple comments from this article that I think are telling: On the different religions in the Anglican Communion: “One has sin and needs a Saviour, the other one simply tells you that you’re O.K. as you are,” don’t believe +Duncan ? Read on… “We’re not talking about taking a liberal or conservative stance on a particular issue; we’re talking about who I am.” – VGR apparently claiming that “who I am” defines how things should be. And I thought that holiness was defined by who God is… the… Read more »

drdanfee
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drdanfee

quote: DAVE SAYS:
As I didn’t contribute on this one last week, here are a couple comments from this article that I think are telling:

On the different religions in the Anglican Communion: “One has sin and needs a Saviour, the other one simply tells you that you’re O.K. as you are,” don’t believe +Duncan ? Read on… “We’re not talking about taking a liberal or conservative stance on a particular issue; we’re talking about who I am.” – VGR apparently claiming that “who I am” defines how things should be.

continued at
http://drdanfee-blogs.blogspot.com/2006/04/quote-dave-says-as-i-didnt-contribute.html

J. C. Fisher
Guest

re the cartoon: OK, that’s clearly +Akinola and +Duncan staring down judgmentally.

…but is that supposed to be +Robinson or +Griswold upon whom they are passing judgment? (not a good caricature either way)

Dave
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Dave

I guess it’s VGR, because pBp Griswold seems to have now realised that consecrating “gay bishops” is the wrong thing to do…

Although I think it’s implication is rather unfair since it suggests that ++Akinola and +Duncan think that only homosexual sin makes someone unsuitable to be a Bishop. I doubt that is what they believe. I think there are lots of criteria in Scripture and Tradition for what qualities a Bishop should/shouldn’t possess!

Leonardo Ricardo
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Leonardo Ricardo

“guess it’s VGR, because pBp Griswold seems to have now realised that consecrating “gay bishops” is the wrong thing to do…” Dave

Dave, why do you continue to make up negative and ugly/hurtful “spew” and “spin” as you go along?

Cheryl Clough
Guest

Leonardo There are some people that are concerned that if they don’t post ugly things on “liberal” websites, that people might think we are nice. So to make sure that it is not just them throwing mud at homosexuals, feisty women and other unsavouries, they throw insults at us to see whether or not we will protect ourselves. If we protect ourselves they can criticise us for not being submissive. If we don’t protect ourselves they can say that we can’t protect ourselves because we are in the wrong. An isolated individual in a parish is a sitting duck for… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Guest

Some catchisms that might be useful for our Arabic cousins as well as us:

“Victory is not becoming like your enemy. Victory is transcending your enemy.”

and

“The victor of a war based on failed economic theory guarantees their own failure.”

David Huff
Guest

Cheryl wrote: “An isolated individual in a parish is a sitting duck for this strategy.”

No kidding. Which is why I worked so hard to get my family out of the AAC church that’s 5 min from our home in Plano, TX to a decent, mainstream parish that’s farther away in Dallas 🙂 Best church-related move I’ve ever made.

Cheryl Clough
Guest

David

Praise be to God that you found a church suitable for your family. That is easier in some dioceses than others. There are some dioceses that white-ant alternative parishes (no diversity here please, we’re “pure”).

Dave
Guest
Dave

Dear Leonardo and Cheryl, I am not making it up.. pBp Griswold has warned parishioners of the diocese of California that they would widen the confrontation it they chose another “gay bishop”. Of the six candidates three are in gay partnerships. He told the Guardian (a liberal UK national newspaper): “The diocese needs to respect the sensibilities of the larger communion.” I just wonder why, given the warnings and resolutions of the primates meetings pre-Hampshire, he took so long to work this one out! As for being ugly, vitriolic attacks and bully tactics. All the stuff liberals worry conservatives are… Read more »

Leonardo Ricardo
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Leonardo Ricardo

“I wonder whether you would like to respond to the theory that liberals worry about this being done to them precisely because this is what they do to others ? ” Dave No Dave, I’ll pass the phony blamegame/shamegame offer right back to you and the gang of Diocese crossing, Windsor Report repudiating, outside/secret money taking, underhanded scheming/deceiving cluster of zealously righteous (African and other) double talking brothers and sisters who wish to destroy/steal TEC because Bishop Robinson was elected/confirmed/consecrated and YOU don’t approve of him and insist that God hates him too (besides you could use the $$$). Go… Read more »

Marc
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Marc

Dave: The priests are not being defrocked because they are dissenters; they are being defrocked because they have repeatedly and unrepentently violated their ordination vows, plain and simple. How do you take over property and funds that already belong to you? Churches and their assets are held in trust for the diocese. The vestry is charged with stewardship, not ownership. It is they, by trying to leave with property and assets they do not own, who are stealing from the diocese and larger church. The only one here thinking in terms of power and control is you (and your ilk.)… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Guest

The other slander campaign that is going on is claiming that the “lefties” precipitated this issue. For those who don’t remember, we spoke out when the global south published an internet public letter challenging Rowan Williams whilst he was making a speech (that two signatories later asked their names to be removed from). (Why now ABC talks behind the scenes to only them and not us makes me question his judgment). Similarly this round was precipitated by the LEAC petition (see http://www.thinkinganglicans.org.uk/archives/001635.html ) As I wrote to one colleague: “…the lead up to Easter is not the time to launch… Read more »

David Huff
Guest

Cheryl wrote: “Praise be to God that you found a church suitable for your family. That is easier in some dioceses than others.”

Yes, we feel very lucky indeed 🙂 Since most of the troublesome dioceses in the U.S. are affiliated with the AAC/”Network,” they tend to have Via Media USA affiliates active within them as well. A quick trip to their link page at http://viamediausa.org/links.html should, hopefully, give anyone living in one of these beleaguered locales a way to find a mainstream Episcopal parish.

Dave
Guest
Dave

Leonardo wrote: Lots of accusations and “….because Bishop Robinson was elected/confirmed/consecrated and YOU don’t approve of him and insist that God hates him too (besides you could use the $$$)” Dear Leonardo, I insist that God loves everyone!!! Maybe you can’t love anyone who you disapprove of (I certainly feel that you hate me) but I can/try.. Otherwise I would have to hate everyone – starting with myself – as we are all sinners!! And it is not a personal thing against Gene Robinson. Same-sex sex is sin whoever is involved; and someone who is living in a sinful relationship… Read more »

Dave
Guest
Dave

Marc wrote: “Dave: The priests are not being defrocked because they are dissenters; they are being defrocked because they have repeatedly and unrepentently violated their ordination vows, plain and simple….. Dear Marc, The priests are being defrocked because they will not accept a Bishop’s authority to assert unscriptural beliefs and behaviours. And GC is now considering a proposal from ECUSA’s WR group that the canons should clearly state that noone can be made to obey something not clearly taught in scripture. When/If this in place I hope that the cases of the defrocked priests will be reviewed!! However, in the… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Guest

Dave Unfortunately in the modern world there are many churches who are in fundamental dispute over who owns the assets (I know of some non-Anglican churches in Sydney where all maintenance and renovation were stopped pending the outcomes of international court disputes). I also recall seeing some correspondence early last year about priests trying to seize ownership of a particular dioceses’ buildings etc. Some of the removal of priests might be a pre-emptive move to prevent similar tactics in particularly acrimonious dioceses. (Personally, I would advocate that anyone who wishes to break with their diocese should be “above reproach” and… Read more »

Simon Sarmiento
Guest

Cheryl
The ECUSA General Convention is once every three years. And the Living Church article is a bit confusing: discussion elsewhere suggests that they may have meant to say that an Archbishop of Canterbury has attended at least once in the tenure of each recent presiding bishop of ECUSA. I don’t know if that is indeed the case or not.

Marc
Guest
Marc

Dave: Even if you believe that your bishop is teaching contrary to scripture, a priest does not have the right simply to declare of their own accord that their bishop no longer has authority over them (as the folks in Connecticut did.) (And who is to say that what you believe is necessarily true simply because you believe it.) It is an issue of adherence to the “discipline” that was promised at ordination. If you disagree so strongly with your bishop, you have several options: work to bring about the change you want, bring presentment, change canonical (and physical) residency,… Read more »

Leonardo Ricardo
Guest
Leonardo Ricardo

“Same-sex sex is sin whoever is involved” Dave “What do I do (what do you do?) when I realize (when you realize) that a relationship, touching, an intimacy – which is experienced by me (or you) as grace-giving and filled with love – is for another Christian, equally devout, an act of great sin and offence? Such is the experience of many gay and lesbian Christians. Even if the friendship is rooted and grounded in mutual respect, in faithfulness, in prayer, in worship, in trust, indeed, experienced as “in Christ,” still the judgment of the other Christian is the same:… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Guest

Marc I agree with you. There will be other dioceses (such as Sydney) where it may well go the opposite way. In both cases, the people leaving should not try and take assets with them. In Sydney in recent years, I have seen a large proportion of a parish leave a church (not Anglican) that would not recant its tolerance to homosexuality, but they are still respected because they did not take assets. I have also seen ministers resign as a matter of principle, but not try and take assets with them. This kind of honest separation is different to… Read more »

Dave
Guest
Dave

Marc wrote: “a priest does not have the right simply to declare of their own accord that their bishop no longer has authority over them”. Dear Marc, I would have some sympathy with this view if the issue was reasonably disputable. But the new beliefs and practices of this small and rather nasty minority of Bishops are generally condemned by the rest of the Bishops internationally, and by the leaders of all the other main Christian denominations. In such circumstances I wish the AC could do what the RCs do and recall the miscreants to Canterbury… as it is they… Read more »

Dave
Guest
Dave

Dear Leonardo, I don’t think it is just “how you do” your relationship(s) but also “what you do” that is important – that is the consistent moral teaching of the old and new testaments. People find happiness and fulfillment in all sorts of relationships, even ones that are clearly sinful (eg adultery) and may even learn about themselves or “discover a grace” through them. But that does not make the sin right – just shows the richness of human relationships. I don’t think that there is anything wrong with close same-sex relationships [non-sexual] love, covenanted relationship, mutuality, faithfulness etc. In… Read more »