T A

Monday's news

Jonathan Petre reports that Williams turns to ‘wise men’ in crisis over gays by which he means:

The Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams, has quietly appointed four “wise men” to advise him on the crisis over homosexuals that is threatening to tear the worldwide Anglican Church apart.

They have yet to be named, but are expected to include the liberal Primate of Wales, Archbishop Barry Morgan, and the conservative Primate of Central Africa, Archbishop Bernard Malango.

The group will play a pivotal role following next month’s General Convention of the US Episcopal Church, the American equivalent of the Church of England’s General Synod…

Stephen Bates in the Guardian reports on Anglican relief as California diocese elects straight bishop:

…The election was greeted with some relief in senior church circles but not by the conservative American Anglican Council, which hopes to overturn the Episcopal leadership. A statement said that California remained a “bastion of amorphous Christianity” and criticised all the candidates for not pledging to withhold consent for “same-sex partnered individuals” as bishops.

James Bone in The Times Anglicans avert clash over gays

Meanwhile back in England, Ruth Gledhill reports Church seeks spirituality of youth . . . and doesn’t like what it finds:

THE Church of England has debunked the widely held view that young people are spiritual seekers on a journey to find transcendent truths to fill the “God-shaped hole” within them.

A report published by the Church today indicates that young people are quite happy with a life without God and prefer car boot sales to church…

The book is Making Sense of Generation Y. The Church of England press release is here.

Ruth has also written on her blog about the California election in US election makes schism unlikely.

39
Leave a Reply

avatar
39 Comment threads
0 Thread replies
0 Followers
 
Most reacted comment
Hottest comment thread
14 Comment authors
DaveFord ELmsdrdanfeeCheryl CloughIT Recent comment authors
  Subscribe  
newest oldest most voted
Notify of
k1eranc
Guest
k1eranc

I am always mystified by reports about GenY, particularly as I am a member of it (born 1979) and grew up in the church. Sometimes I suspect that the researchers often end up finding a reflection of their own prejudices – in any event, not having read the report I think this is probably an unfair thing to say – or simply driving the problem to yet another prodigious level of abstraction. The question I have recently ended up asking my contemporaries about the church’s efforts to meet them runs like this: do you sense that in the local parish-based… Read more »

Martin Reynolds
Guest
Martin Reynolds

An interesting piece from Jonathan Petre at the Telegraph.
I can only assume that he is referring to the four man panel put in place following the Primates meeting and last ACC, some time ago now.
It seems news of its existence was unknown to him until very recently.

Cynthia Gilliatt
Guest
Cynthia Gilliatt

Oh surely not Archbishop Malango. He has been invoved with AMiA and has ‘received’ David Moyer. He – the Archbishop – has meddled in the affairs of TEC, meeting on several occasions with those who are plotting to replace TEC as the Anglican ‘brand’ in America. Can’t ++Rowan find a ‘wise man’ who is not compromised in this way? And how about a wise woman or so? Oh – I forget – you-all don’t yet have women bishops. We have several – perhaps we could loan you one or two.

Nadine Kwong
Guest
Nadine Kwong

MALANGO a “wise man”??? Ah, what irony… This is the same primate who oppresses the people of Lake Malawi diocese (who have hauled him, and his puppet appointee as its bishop, into court) and who backs the thug who is bishop of Harare (who never saw a dictator he didn’t want to serve) and stifles the efforts of Harare’s people to rid themselves of this lackey of Mugabe. Unbelievable, and unbelievably saddening. And by the way, where *is* ++Rowan’s leadership on the issues of the Lake Malawi and Harare dioceses?! +New Hampshire raises the specter of schism, but +Harare the… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

k1eranc wrote: “healthy tradition” “a parental concern with (personal and public) neatness, wanting to find the *right* sort of person” “classic ‘gate keeping’ politics – almost anyone who’s had a long-term parish involvement will know the obstructive and destructive patterns of behaviour”

Perhaps we should all be rather grateful to God for each and every person, of any age, who is not lured into destructive patterns of co-dependency and the dysfunctional structures, “prejudices and insecurities” of un-healthy congregations.

Cheryl Clough
Guest

Rowan is right to cover the “extremes” and Cynthia’s note about women is timely. Personally, I am relieved to see that he has invited someone who would be seen to be “liberal”. A week or so ago I was worried that he was in the pockets of one camp only. At least this way there is at least the appearance of trying to seek input from both “sides”. Although the word “side” is something that I feel is imposed. Personally, I would like to see both “sides” continue but in a civilized manner where one “side” cautions of the difficulties… Read more »

Dave
Guest
Dave

++Malago seems a strange choice given his current controversial decisions and weakened standing in many people’s eyes. But I don’t think that the “wise men” are meeded so much to ‘keep the communion together’ as to sound out the provinces to find possible compromises. However in the medium term I do think that such approaches to ‘keeping the communion together’ are misconceived. The idea of extreme provinces like ECUSA restraining themselves temporarily or exercising great caution in their movement away from the rest of us, is far from sufficient to ‘keep the communion together’. What we need to see are… Read more »

Leonardo Ricardo
Guest
Leonardo Ricardo

“human-centered rather that God-centered biblical values.” Dave

My Dear Brother Dave,

I’m happy that God created you and me and that we are EACH given the opportunity to discern Gods “will” individually and personally through the Scriptures, “wise men” and/or trusted spiritual leaders and other emotionally healthy advisors and teachers.

I TRUST the Holy Spirit will continue to deliver and reveal more of Gods TRUTH and WILL to we insistant and demanding human seekers of “light” on a ongoing basis…that is, if we remain/become willing to listen and hear something other than the sound of our own noisy voice.

J. C. Fisher
Guest

I think you’ve got your “centrifugal” (flying apart) and “centripetal” (coming together) forces *backwards*, Dave.

[And/or, that better explains to me your POV? ;-/]

Cheryl Clough
Guest

Dave I like your idea of centrifugal forces coming into play. There are some philosophical models (e.g. steady state theories, punctuated equilibrium, dialectical conflict) that postulate that at times of change there is a lot of “turbulence” as competing forces or ideas are bounced off each other. Somehow during the turbulence, a model or path becomes clear that brings forward the best elements of the earlier paradigms/system into a higher evolved model. A good (non-emotional) example was the debate over light: is it a wave or a particle? The debate was very heated but rapidly resolved when they finally worked… Read more »

R Fletcher
Guest
R Fletcher

“…at times of change there is a lot of “turbulence” as competing forces or ideas are bounced off each other…”

There is also a lot of turbulence when the Holy Spirit takes hold. Perhaps our problem as a church at the moment is not being able to determine, because of our own preconceived notions, whether the turbulence is Spirit caused, or human generated.

Rae

Dave
Guest
Dave

Dear JCF, you’re right… I got my centrifugal and centripetal forces the wrong way round – Thanks! (and I’m *supposed* to be a scientist!)

Dave
Guest
Dave

Dear Cheryl, The idea is from an old book I read on religious movements – that all have some drivers which are ‘centrifugal’ and some that are ‘centripetal’. After JCF’s correction I should say that the ‘centrifugal’ drivers are the ones that tend to increase the distance between that particular religious movement and standard Christianity, and the centripetal one’s tend to decrease the distance, over time. In the case I was reading about the author postulated that a particular movement (one started fairly recently with their own ‘prophet’) would come closer to standard Christianity with time, despite their then superior… Read more »

Dave
Guest
Dave

Dear Leonardo, essentially we disagree on whether a Holy God can reveal a ‘new’ morality that is not consistent with His previous revelations.

Given those inconsistencies, and the fact that the ‘new revelations’ mirror current changes in the attitudes of some secular societies, I have to question whether you have actually discerned the voice of God, or just the voice of the world.

Oriscus
Guest
Oriscus

For those of us divided by a common language…
D’you not think they might mean “wise guys”?

Cheryl Clough
Guest

Dave Thank you for throwing another ball, I was trying to work out how to weave this into the dialogue. Much of the debate has been around staying true the principles of the Nicene Creed, or the Articles of Reformation. These are a mere few hundred/couple of thousand years old. God’s seeking out and and finding His own precedes the Torah (e.g. Noah, Abraham and Sarah, and even Moses himself who is at the junction point where the Torah came into written existence). Thus authors who look at the evolution of theology within the post-Jesus time continuum have inadvertently blinded… Read more »

Leonardo Ricardo
Guest
Leonardo Ricardo

“I have to question whether you have actually discerned the voice of God, or just the voice of the world.” Dave My Dear Brother Dave, It’s not up to you to question (or determine) the quality of my discernment process with God. My relationship with God is my own spiritual quest. My loving God offers me his “will” via the Holy Spirit, inspiration from the Scriptures (as they are constantly revealing and less concealing), injustice/justice in everyday life around me and from the counsel of other trusted human beings and “Wise Men.” I receive Gods “will” if I’m NOT demanding… Read more »

IT
Guest
IT

Dave writes:
“Given those inconsistencies, and the fact that the ‘new revelations’ mirror current changes in the attitudes of some secular societies, I have to question whether you have actually discerned the voice of God, or just the voice of the world.”

Equally, Dave, since a religious person might consider that the world and society are part of God’s creation, such a person might ask if YOU are wilfully ignoring the voice of God.

drdanfee
Guest
drdanfee

Dear Cheryl C, thanks for the link to WCC news. While I regard this work of dialogue to be an essential part of the larger work of justice and service in the world; and while I also even dare to regard the dialogue as part of the large unfinished work of true witness; I suspect that many evangelical or traditionalistic camps will continue to view dialogue as either suspect or irrelevant to their task of preaching to convert, defined in narrow conformities. Alas, the only hope I can see is to continue to agree to disagree, and keep on with… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“In the case of the rift over liberal vs biblical/traditional Christianity I think that the opposite is true at the moment. The authority sources are different.” Dave, I find this dichotomy interesting. For you, there are liberal values and biblical ones. Funny. I find radical ideas very biblical. Put yourself back in Jesus’s time, living as a devout Jew, trying to obey all the mitzvoth. With your “living by the rules” attitude and your attachment to what is biblical and traditional, what would you have done if you had heard Him preach, had seen Him break the Sabbath, and all… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Guest

There’s some lovely postings here. One of the reasons I oppose “absolutism” is that it denies the possibility of errors. The debate above still has some parties presuming that the other side will “disappear”. That is not my vision. I would rather see diverse bodies of Christ, co-habitating with other religions in a hospitable manner, learning from observing the best in each other, whilst providing the scrutiny to protect each other from our worst manifestations. That is why I have no problem with the Catholics insisting on male celibate priests; just so long as they don’t try and impose it… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Guest

Then I read on the Church newspaper today that the puritans are still not happy. Check this out:
http://www.churchnewspaper.com/news.php?read=on&number_key=5819&title=Californian%20crisis%20%20but%20not%20in%20San%20Francisco

Will their nitpicking never end?

Cynthia Gilliatt
Guest
Cynthia Gilliatt

“Will their nitpicking never end?” You might contrast that with the various statements from Integrity, Oasis CA, etc., welcoming the election of Mark Andrus, and NOT whining that a glbt person was not elected, NOT threatening to pick up and leave. Anyone who has followed this since gencon03 and has read the documents posted on the website of the Diocese of Washington [DC] must know by now that the goal of the leadership of AAC/Network/AMiA is not to reach a working agreement, not to work for comprehension, not to seek a middle ground, but to replace TEC as the Anglican… Read more »

Leonardo Ricardo
Guest
Leonardo Ricardo

Will their nitpicking never end? Cheryl Clough The puritan voices are struggling to form words that make “acceptable” sense. Their feardriven trembling and shrill selective thinking progressed into yet MORE underminding, disrespect and NOW degenerates into stronger and more viscious attacks on specific fellow Episcopalians with whom they’ve assigned grave and sinfilled character fault(s). These puritan “lynch mobs” mean to cause harm to other Christians who *believe* differently than they do. They are NOW extra frantic, completely self-obsessed, strident, out-of-control and intollerant of the majority moderate thinking/believing/center membership at TEC. They will get more abusive to fellow Christians and LGBT… Read more »

drdanfee
Guest
drdanfee

Thanks for that link, CC. My guess is that the various realignment networks will go after anybody who manages to get elected bishop who is not already firmly and publicly pledged to their published and current campaign to dominate and control, or even better, replace, ECUSA province. I am still wrapping my weasly little liberal Jesus Freak mind around the fact that the ECUSA conservative believers in particular, know the complete and absolute mind of God, period. Full stop. End. This seems especially true when it comes to anything involving sex and human nature. They are so amazingly closed and… Read more »

Dave
Guest
Dave

Dear Leonardo and IT, you don’t seem to take into account that, though God ‘made’ the world and people, we are sinful and the world is in rebellion against Him – and under His judgement..

Otherwise there would be no need for salvation, and Christ died for nothing !

Dave
Guest
Dave

Dear Ford, there are well-established exegetical and hermenuetical methods for differentiating in the Old and New Testaments between God-given morality and religious/cultural rules (that may no longer apply). These were debated on TA a few months ago – if you look back you will find explanations as to why a Christian, unlike an OT Jew, can eat prawns (for instance) without offending against his religion.

Cheryl Clough
Guest

drdanfee If I could I would hug you! I have been trying to work out how to weave this one into the dialogue for months, and you threw the ball. The irony is the Buddhists (and through the Dalai Lama’s comment that Hindu’s are Buddhists’ twins) have caught on before many of the Christians. God’s himself provided the proof that His promise of an everlasting covenant to humanity covers the Buddhists and Hindus late last year. In this article http://www.cathnews.com/news/511/142.php the Dalai Lama urges Christians to not convert because “The Dalai Lama has said that Western Christians and Muslims should… Read more »

drdanfee
Guest
drdanfee

Hi CC, glad I could happen to help with something. I think we must either trust that God is working through all – just as the Buddhist apparently seeks to face all of life with clear eyes and unclouded mindfulness; or we shall collapse into despair. I see at least two forms of modern despair – nihilist ones which urge us to disappear into competition or owning things or just shutting down completely, and conservative conformed ones whose wishes for us are too well known in the realignment campaign and other forms.

Cheryl Clough
Guest

drdanfee I empathise with your comments, and this links into the usury concerns that I have been pleased to see posted on this and several other times in the last few weeks on TA. In both of your two mentioned forms, there is one common driver, namely doing whatever is required to keep the people submissive so that the powers that be can play their games with no accountability. Considering some of the articles in the US mainstream press in recent weeks, I wonder if their defintion of a nation at “peace” is where enterprise can operate without accountability for… Read more »

IT
Guest
IT

Dave,
You dismiss any possibility that your God is speaking to you through the context of modern society, simply because people are sinful.

How can you be so sure that your exclusionary impulses are not what is in “rebellion against Him”?

This arrogance is remarkable.

Dave
Guest
Dave

Dear IT, I can’t be sure that my “impulses” are from God, in fact I’m sure that many aren’t.. But neither can you!

That’s why I rely primarily on the most reliable and authentic previous revelation – that found in the Bible – rather than on my own, or the “world’s”, current attitudes.

Cheryl Clough
Guest

There is apparently an element of Christianity that has developed an intellectual model that God’s final intervention in history was the Lord Jesus, and that the only time God will intervene in history is for Jesus to return and destroy the world. The term I have heard bandied for this is called “propositional revelation”. The people who subscribe to this point of view therefore dismiss any new revelation or insight as being an act of sinful rebellion against Jesus and God (who they bundle into the one thing). There are huge inconsistencies in their model (especially for those of the… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Guest

I was writing to a friend of mine today and discussing God’s adoptive character e.g. Ezekiel 11:20 or Hosea 2:23. I was sharing some similar passages to her and commented: “I just love these (two other) passages’ imagery because they show God’s adoptive character. I think one thing I hate about the extremists is they try to monopolize God. It is my belief that there isn’t one honest soul on this earth that doesn’t secretly want to be part of the “in crowd” of being wanted and coveted by God. It is my belief that many souls’ jealousy of the… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

From Dave: “Dear Ford, there are well-established exegetical and hermenuetical methods for differentiating in the Old and New Testaments between God-given morality and religious/cultural rules (that may no longer apply). These were debated on TA a few months ago – if you look back you will find explanations as to why a Christian, unlike an OT Jew, can eat prawns (for instance) without offending against his religion.” Indeed, Dave, but I didn’t mention dietary laws. Usury has nnothing to do with ritual, and is decidedly a moral issue. The Church considered it a sin for 1500 years. Then, I would… Read more »

drdanfee
Guest
drdanfee

The fact is, it seems just fine to me to have both Cheryl and Dave as brother/sister followers of Jesus. (For example.) Well, except that Dave has points of view which seem to sort of softly or loudly demand that he interfere with Cheryl, instead of just seeking to understand her, and maybe sometimes agree to disagree. Too bad. I really think all our heat and noise about getting sufficiently conformed is a waste of time and effort. God will sort us all out, is sorting us all out, and no sola scriptura will escape that sorting by virtue of… Read more »

Dave
Guest
Dave

Dear drdanfee, I can assure you that enough liberal folk also feel that they need to “softly or loudly demand that they interfere with” me!! It’s what is called disagreement and debate – I welcome it even when I feel very offended by vitriolic ‘liberal’ assertions/accusations. I would prefer it if everyone was a nice biblical evangelical like me!!

Dear Ford, Usury was covered extensively too – take a look around February. There is one discussion here, but there was a fuller one: http://www.thinkinganglicans.org.uk/archives/001568.html

Maybe Simon will provide a link.

Ford ELms
Guest
Ford ELms

Most of my friends, lapsed Christians all, sincerely see the current debate in the Anglican Church, in so far as they pay attention to it at all, as a bunch of old bigots trying to make elaborate arguments to use religion to support their bigotry. They would look at the way in which the issue of usury is sidestepped as just another example of this kind of hypocrisy. I agree with them. I am not seeking to make the faith over into something that fits my friends’ morality, merely to find a way to express my faith in a way… Read more »

Dave
Guest
Dave

Dear Ford, the largest and *fastest growing* churches in the C of E are all evangelical or conservative evangelical.. they *are* reaching people today, despite remaining true to New Testament teachings (properly interpreted) on what Christians are supposed to believe, what our values are supposed to be, and how we are supposed to live. Many changes have been made in what the church does and what is seen as Christian behaviour. The question should always be whether the change is consistent with Scriptural teachings propoerly interpreted in the suituations that we find ourselves in. Regarding Usury, if you didn’t find… Read more »