Thinking Anglicans

Kasper comes to Market Bosworth

The House of Bishops of the Church of England is meeting this week at Market Bosworth, close to the site where the Plantagenets lost out to the Tudors.

Cardinal Walter Kasper addressed the House of Bishops of the Church of England this week.
See the full text of his remarks below the comment from Rowan Williams on this page. Another copy of it is here.

A press report on this was in The Times Ruth Gledhill Church unity ‘impossible’ if women become bishops. Vox Pop responses are here.

An earlier report in the Telegraph by Jonathan Petre is concerned with what the House of Bishops will do about women bishops: Deal on women bishops could collapse.

The speech by the cardinal made Forward in Faith extremely happy.

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montse sanchezCheryl CloughH. E. BaberJ. C. FisherGöran Koch-Swahne Recent comment authors
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Cynthia
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Cynthia

Re the Cardinal’s speech. So what? Did not the Vatican declare Anglican Orders invalid back in the 19th century? {my best reference books are not to hand at the moment.) I remember during the run-up to women’s ordination in the US a fair number of handwringings about how ordaining women to the diaconate and priesthood would ‘prevent reunification with Rome.’ So what? If I wanted to be reunified with Rome, I would have swum the Tiber. Let me be clear. I am for cross-denominational cooperation, and hope some day that my RC friends could take Communion from me, and I… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

It would be most interesting indeed to hear the reasons some believe women cannot be priests and bishops.

And I don’t mean the Pastoral letters, and I do take for granted, that everyone understands that the Tradition of the Church is ever changing.

BrianMcK
Guest

If the consecration of women as bishops prevents union with Rome, that can only be a good thing for the preservation of Reformation truth.

J. C. Fisher
Guest

Has an Anglican bishop ever been invited to address the College of Cardinals, in a “Here’s how I think y’all should run your Church” sort of way? :-/

Cheryl Clough
Guest

I found about this via the Catholic News Service (I like to keep in touch with what the Pope is advocating). http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0603279.htm The article commented that at one point the Catholic Cardinal stated “A decision in favor of women bishops made broadly by the Anglican Communion, he said, would also represent a turning away from the “common position of all the churches of the first millennium.” He said this meant that the Anglican Communion would no longer occupy “a special place” among the churches of the West but would align itself closely to the Protestant churches of the 16th century.”… Read more »

Edward
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Edward

And there was me thinking that all the theology espoused in Cardinal Kasper’s Speech was sensible.

I think it is more international bishop’s conferences which Anglican Bishops have spoken at than the college of cardinals which only really gathers together infrequently (to my knowledge). The Bishop of Chichester did at some point either this or last year – I couldn’t provide you with a link though.

Alan Marsh
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Alan Marsh

An excellent presentation of the biblical and catholic position on the ordination of women is to be found in Manfred Hauke’s book, “Women in the Priesthood?” Publ. Ignatius Press, 1988.

It would be surprising if the College of Cardinals thought that Anglicans could offer any advice of the kind JCF suggests. More likely the title of the address would be “How not to run a Church.”

Cynthia Gilliatt
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Cynthia Gilliatt

“How not to run a church” indeed! Let’s see – have a policy of moving pedophile priests from parish to parish for a long periiod of time, remove Cardinal Law of Boston from the reach of press and, in practical terms, secular jurisdiction by giving him a cushy post in Italy, and have him preach a major homily upon the death of JPII, end of having several archdioceses near bankruptcy because of court judgments against their on-going policies of sheltering and enabling pedophile priests … hmmm.

C

drdanfee
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drdanfee

I note yet again how easily and quickly any differentiation from a conservative conformed approach turns into nothing but a simplistic occasion which boils down to Either/Or. And again how solidly the conformed conservative side of the Either/Or is hands down the better or best or only viable alternative. Whether it is reading scripture, reunifying with Rome, avoiding the travesty of women in ministry (especially sacramental ministries – though naturally not service in kitchens), getting people to turn off their minds and stop asking questions, how to run a church, or how to run a society – the conformed conservatives… Read more »

Tom
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Tom

“have a policy of moving pedophile priests from parish to parish for a long periiod of time…”

I know exactly what you mean, Ms. Gilliatt kind of like how bishops turned a blind eye to the affair between Fr. John Bennison with a 14 year old girl and Bp. Swing now bemoans he is powerless to remove the priest!

Cheryl Clough
Guest

drdanfee It was a long post, but it was a good posting. I found this article about radicalism today and it dovetails nicely into your posting: http://www.embassymag.ca/html/index.php?display=story&full_path=/2006/ju I particularly liked this passage “Since when did radical ideas become a bad thing? Ideas of hate, yes, but radical ideas in themselves have historically created the liberal western values we so often brag about. The abolition of slavery came from some radicalized discussions, and so did the vote for women and all manner of key reforms. But today there is a disturbing slide away from the kind of critical, radical expression that… Read more »

J. C. Fisher
Guest

“It would be surprising if the College of Cardinals thought that Anglicans could offer any advice of the kind JCF suggests. More likely the title of the address would be “How not to run a Church.””

Indeed, Alan: that’s what I would expect them to think. The more curious question, is why the CofE HofB doesn’t think “back atcha” re the RCC? (For reasons Cynthia suggests, among others)

[“biblical and catholic position … Ignatius Press” {snort!} I think the terms you’re really looking for are “Papist and reactionary position”?]

Robert Christian
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Robert Christian

For those who not aware, you’ll get very little pastoral care in the Roman Catholic Church. I worked for years as a music director and organist in various Roman Churches and the priest didn’t know names and in many cases didn’t even recognize faces when he went out into the public. On the other hand our priest know us, our faces, our names and at least in my case my priest been to my home. I have no desire to seek reunification with Rome. I like a more personal touch. As for women in the episcopate, why not. Didn’t St.… Read more »

H. E. Baber
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Oh who the hell cares at this point! I spent most of my adult life praying for reunion with Rome. I admire the RC church: I admire the courage of RCs in supporting unpopular causes and oppressed people, I admire their serious religious commitment, and I admire the way they do business. I admire them for supporting religious devotion in a way that most Anglican churches don’t–for keeping churches open and having services every day. Why don’t we do that? I teach at a Catholic college and I am gung-ho with the program: I wish I could go for Communion… Read more »

Neil
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Neil

‘And, yes, this is the institutional juggernaut that kept feeding church kids to pedophile priests rather than risk what was predicted to be a possibility of public scandal.’
This is a disgraceful comment, even though the Catholic Church itself acted disgracefully. Wilfully and deliberately ‘feeding church kids’ to paedophile monsters?
I enjoy your posts, even though fullsome and more than regular, but I really do not think this sort of comment is acceptable.

prophetjck
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prophetjck

i would say

Unity is impossible with the Catholic Catechisms in place.

After all, we protestants are anathema in their declarations.

Deception at its best……….

Alan Marsh
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Alan Marsh

H E Baber said, “Try to emulate the good things they do–maintain theological orthodoxy…”

And indeed, that is precisely the point. It is no good pretending to be “one of the three branches of the Catholic Church that go straight back to Christ” if all that is left is the institution, and not the faith.

drdanfee
Guest
drdanfee

Whether or not my comment is unacceptable, I for one wish it were not apparently true. Documents obtained during legal discovery in various Boston cases, for example, demonstrate how the internal church noted, documented, and weighed what was going on – though possibly not the fullest extent of how many different children might have been involved. Cardinal Law later explained that church leaders didn’t know better in those days. Could this witting or unwitting ignorance have something to do with a theology of sex that claims to already know and define everything worth knowing? I was there as a master’s… Read more »

Cynthia Gilliatt
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Cynthia Gilliatt

Re the Bennison situation – I would not cite that as a shining example of good practice. That is not to say it is equivalent to the widespread and systematic coverup over a long period of time of many instances of pedophilia in many dioceses, with the offenders being moved from parish to parish. No church is free of individuals who commit evil acts – and I can think of few more evil than preying on children – and no church is 100% led by bishops or other overseers who never make bad judgments. But that is quite different from… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Guest

H.E. Baber hit the key lesson “Try to emulate the good things that they do maintain theological orthodoxy, support religious devotion, back unpopular causes, stop being jackasses and get real.” Although, I for one would question theological orthodoxy if that means ultimate monolithic scriptural interpretation. I relish that the Catholic Church has survived as long as it has, and that in these times of turbulence they have decided that they are going to stick to their core cultural dynamics of celibacy and male priests. However, I would be against them if they were then to demand that all churches submit… Read more »

Marshall Scott
Guest

The Cardinal stated, ” But the Catholic Church has always perceived the Church of England as playing a unique role in the Anglican Communion: it is the church from which Anglicanism derives its historical continuity, and with whom the divisions of the 16th century are most specifically addressed; it is the church led by the Archbishop of Canterbury who, in the words of the Windsor Report, is ‘the pivotal instrument and focus of unity’ within the Anglican Communion; other provinces have understood being in communion with him as a ‘touchstone of what it was to be Anglican’ (§99); finally, it… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

Found this http://haukecritique.blogspot.com

The book doesn’t seem to be very convincing.

J. C. Fisher
Guest

I would say that the AC *should* try to do what WE do—“maintain theological orthodoxy”—and then hope that the RCC (currently captive to their Papist interation) catches up…

[Well, at least that’s what I feel confident that the Episcopal Church will do—all things in God’s Good Time! :-D]

Cheryl Clough
Guest

The other question that I am finding myself contemplating is the concept of theologoical geneology. This need to be seen to be able to trace one’s origins back to the source is actually part of the romanticism that makes The Da Vinci code so popular. Yet, this very concept of geneology can become a hindrance to being in a proper relationship with God. It can lead to nepotism and hypocritical self-righteousness. The argument runs along the lines that if we can trace our geneology back to Christ, our church is therefore more legitimate than other churches. Yet God makes it… Read more »

H. E. Baber
Guest
H. E. Baber

I should clarify that I’m pretty latitudinarian about “theological orthodoxy”–I’d say the Nicene Creed was just fine–Filioque clause optional. Or at the very least bare minimum the idea that believing in God is interpreted in such a way that it involves the good old existential quantifier–and doesn’t just cash out as “I am committed to an agapistic way of life” or “I support oppressed peoples in liberating themselves from white, Western, male, heterosexual hegemony.” In my experience all RC priests are orthodox in this broad sense even though most don’t buy into their all the details of their church’s agenda–including… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Guest

H.E. Baber, I am liking your postings, especially as you clarify your positions. I agree that we don’t need to RC church to set the agenda. Yet it doesn’t hurt to monitor what they are doing and emulate that which is beneficial. One of my concerns is that the churches (not just Anglican) have become unsure of the absolute divinity of God and shyed away from incorporating latest scientific discoveries into their theological models. In that sense, many church people and leaders have become excessively insular and thus made themselves irrelevant, to the point of sometimes discrediting themselves by showing… Read more »

montse sanchez
Guest
montse sanchez

All this discussions puzzle me.I see I am not as clever as any of you or as good at language. The Catholic Church, Roman as you call it is made of human beings with all the virtues and vices. It is their comitment to God and Jesus teachings that will santify them. Many catholics are doing that and the more that do the better priests we will have. Union of the church is what Jesus wanted, not separation. If the Church needs improvement it has to happen inside, in union not by separating. There might be things I might not… Read more »