Thinking Anglicans

more responses to ECUSA

The African primates of CAPA have expressed their opinions on the ECUSA General Convention:
CAPA – An Open Letter to the Episcopal Church USA signed by Peter Akinola.

The Bishop of Rochester’s opinions previously expressed in the Telegraph are repeated by the CEN in Backdoor claim over civil marriages.

Lionel Deimel has updated his excellent earlier analysis Is the Episcopal Church About to Surrender? with a lengthy addendum (scroll down).

Christina Rees has an article about the new PB in the CEN A Leader for our Time .

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Steven
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Steven

Interesting response from CAPA. All very preliminary, of course, and a bit more pointed than that of the ABC, but not the roaring denunciations one might have expected. I suppose all of the preliminary responses will be rather measured, as various folks consult and study what has been done as well as determining how to respond. However, the end result is going to be “too little too late” from one bloc and “aww, give ’em a break–they tried” from another. Still, it will be interesting to see how the numbers fall out and even more interesting to see how the… Read more »

Dave
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Dave

Lionel Deimel wrote: “Bishop Chane announced that he does not consider himself bound by B033, as, indeed, he is not.” *and* “whereas the original wording applied to “nominating committees, electing conventions, Standing Committees, and bishops with jurisdiction,” B033 addresses only “Standing Committees and bishops with jurisdiction.””

So, I think we all agree that there is *no real moratorium*. Bishops in homo-sexual relationships can be nominated and elected, and Bishops can ignore B033 and consecrate…

ruidh
Guest

I think Bishop Nazir-Ali’s reaction is a little odd considering that England has a civil partnership law and the US (with a few local exceptions) dosn’t. How does an opinion on a political question someone create a second “faith”?

Anna
Guest

But Chane can’t consecrate a new bishop, right? Certainly not all by himself. I don’t think his statement means much on its own. No bishop can be elected and consecrated without consent from more than a few other bishops/standing committees/etc.

Merseymike
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Merseymike

And even odder since the Bishops who voted in the Lords largely voted for the civil partnership legislation, and have conceded that they must be recognised for clergy – and not used to prevent gay partners in the laity take a full role in the Church.

drdanfee
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drdanfee

This whole deal is still so mixed it is quite difficult to extrapolate a future outcome. When one reads/listens to the GC parts about cherishing our worldwide Anglican relationships and expressing determinations to engage Windsor processes and/or LGBTQ listening processes in order to expand/continue a too long delayed conversation; then it sounds like an invitation to conversation and rather typically Anglican old hat. Then one suddenly recalls that now this old Anglican hat called conversation/listening has been completely redefined for new market purposes among orthodoxists as the shoddy new progressive hat. Ooops, I had temoprarily forgotten that, and probably was… Read more »

Rob Hall
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Rob Hall

CAPA’s letter, with its comments about being “saddened that the reports to date of your [ECUSA’s] elections and actions suggest that you are unable to embrace the essential recommendations .. necessary for the healing of our divisions” would be credible if CAPA was also prepared to apply such concern about elections and actions to Lake Malawi. And are we to gather from this – as ECUSA is apprently the only problem CAPA can see in the Anglican Communion – that CAPA churches CAN reconcile the actions of the murderous Bishop Kunonga, and his partner in injustice Archbishop Malango, with teaching… Read more »

Christopher Shell
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Christopher Shell

Ruidh- Your answer marks you out as a dualist. The church is dealing with one sphere/world, and ‘politics’ with another. Dualism is widely rejected. There is only one sphere/world. On the contrary, both what you call ‘politics’ and what we call ‘the church’ are concerned with the whole of life. ‘Christian’ is not a word one can define and redefine at will. It means something particular, just like ‘platonist’, ‘hedonist’ and ‘existentialist’. The particular matter in question is not one where Christians (those who are correctly defined as ‘Christians’) will have opposing views, since one of the two available views… Read more »

Alan Marsh
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Alan Marsh

There is a civil partnership law in England, imposed by secular Act of Parliament, with votes from a few unrepresentative bishops in the House of Lords. But it has not been debated by our General Synod. Unlike General Convention, it would certainly be widely rejected if such a debate were to take place in England.

David Bieler
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David Bieler

Then by all means introduce a resolution that tries to censure you bishops for the breadth of behavior they have accepted, or at least say on the floor of your synod that you think the pastoral advice of your bishops is in error. Make it matter. You might also find that some of them are a bit less decisive when it’s their actions being discussed on the floor.

Nick Finke
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Nick Finke

I disagree that Ruidh’s answer is in any way dualist. It simply reflects the way we live in the US. It is an article of political faith for us, based on the First Amendment to our Constitution, that there is a political sphere that must exist completely separate from any religion or religious institution. This concept is probably an inheritance from our Deist founding fathers and does not always make a great deal of intellectual sense, as Christopher Shell points out above, but it is conventionally thought to be one of the essential elements in our national social contract that… Read more »

ruidh
Guest

Not a dualist — an American. In America, the Church and the Government *are* two seperate things.

David Huff
Guest

Anna wrote, “But Chane can’t consecrate a new bishop, right? Certainly not all by himself.” No, but TEC canons only require, I believe, three other bishops to consecrate a newly elected bishop. Various reports from General Convention have the number of bishops who stood (literally) with Bp. Chane at between 20 and 30. Certainly much more than three. And to Alan Marsh: I assume you meant that a civil partnership law would fail if debated in your General Synod. That may be all well & good (at least in your mind), but remind me again just what percentage of British… Read more »

LaurenceRoberts
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LaurenceRoberts

Remember ‘the Philadelphia eleven’ !

Rememeber Florence Li Tim Oi

Remember Dorothy Kerin

Remember the anglican religious communities

Remember the English Missal
Remember Evensong & Benediction
Remember tabernacles, vestments and candles
Remember ‘England’s Nazareth’ (Walsingham)

Remember Dr. Barnes
Remember Bishop Colenso
Remember John Robinson
Remember Mervyn Stockwood -the first ‘openly gay bishop’

Remember Henry v111 & Archbishop Cranmer

Mark Preece
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Mark Preece

There a provocative piece by Damian Thompson in the Telegraph a couple of days ago (I don’t see it referenced here at TA; sorry if I’ve just missed it) that’s worth a read. It’s at: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2006/06/20/do2002.xml It’s very blunt about the state of the communion and whether it’s worth saving. He says: “While it is true that some bishops of the Episcopal Church have more in common with a crystal-gazing Californian housewife than George Herbert, it is also true that “Anglican” dioceses in the developing world have been hijacked by poisonously bigoted Bible-bashers. And not just in the developing world,… Read more »

Merseymike
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Merseymike

Why, Alan? I know many people who think that there is no reason why gay people should be discriminated against in the civil law and that their relationships should be recognised, even if they have a view that the church cannot offer this full acceptance.

Dave
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Dave

Yes, and here is the relevant ECUSA (or TEC) resolution on Gay Marriage, passed on Wednesday: Resolution A095: Resolved, the House of Deputies concurring, That the 75th General Convention reaffirm the Episcopal Church’s historical support of gay and lesbian persons as children of God and entitled to full civil rights; and be it further Resolved, That the 75th General Convention reaffirm the 71st General Convention’s action calling upon “municipal council, state legislatures and the United States Congress to approve measures giving gay and lesbian couples protection[s] such as: bereavement and family leave policies; health benefits; pension benefits; real-estate transfer tax… Read more »

LaurenceRoberts
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LaurenceRoberts

Thought this would be of interst Simon, but don’t know how (or if it’s possible) to post new stuff here, so am sending it in, via a comment box–I do know how to do that ! Cheers Laurence Matt Kennedy: BREAKING: TO ALL THE BELOVED OF THE ANGLICAN COMMUNION NETWORK From bishop Duncan: More initiatives are underway. Pastoral and apostolic care has been promised without regard to geography. All I can tell you is that the shape of this care will depend on a very near-range international meeting. Other actions will follow upon continuing conversations with those at the highest… Read more »

Byron Estes
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Byron Estes

DrDanfee says it all so well as usual. Wonderful, wonderful commentary.

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

I am afraid that Christorpher Shell is mixing things up.

Alexandrian Hellenist Moral Philosophy is not the Gospel found in the Bible.

Neo-Platonism is not Christianity. Not even Christian. It’s a different religion.

drdanfee
Guest
drdanfee

So far as General Synod and CoE go, it is sadly obvious that I cannot expect to feel welcome in many of the UK CoE congregations which are currently spouting such hogwash about Queer Stuff, so solemnly. The bedrock of deep isolation upon which just this sort of traditional but prejudiced discourse so often rests leads me to strongly suspect to nobody actually knows any LGBTQ people, let alone LGBTQ believers of any faith community, let alone LGBTQ Anglican believers, let alone LGBTQ ECUSA Anglican believers. How else shall I explain, even in practical terms of daily citizenship life, their… Read more »

drdanfee
Guest
drdanfee

Gee. I had a really strange pickle dream last night. Canterbury stood up, finally, and announced that everybody invited to Lambeth next will NOT be invited to be devoted to (A) Anglican Conservative Conformity, and (B) Penal enforcements of Anglican Conformity. Instead, in my pickle dream Canterbury firmly and clearly announced that all would be invited to Lambeth next – exclusively as a worldwide Listening Event – aimed at the full range of different ways (presuppositional and otherwise) to read scripture with integrity and as still open to reason and to our legacy of tradition. It remember hearing lots of… Read more »

Dave
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Dave

Christina Rees seems to have gone all starry eyed over ++elect Schori… I wonder if her superlatives are based on fact and knowledge, or on campaigning zeal and fantasy …

Dave
Guest
Dave

Dear drdanfee, Many of us have listened closely, know the liberal arguements and assumptions and, having understood, we DISAGREE with them. Listening is not a process that can only end when we reach the liberal position – it is there to show due respect, to ensure adequate understanding and after that to come to a decision. It should also be two way – but much liberal ‘listening’ to orthodox believers seems to consist of nothing more than responses like “they’re all just KKK-like bigots wanting to take away my freedoms” and “their theological arguements are just an excuse, and anyway… Read more »

Byron
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Byron

Dave continues to parrot the restrictive conservative position regarding sex – but never acknowledges the historic reality of a more healthy open sexuality in certain strains of Christianity nor the results of 150 years of scientific study of sexuality which clearly show the unhealthful effects of sexual bigotry. Conservatives always trump such arguments with the “true Christian belief” hammer, when there are a variety of Christianities and always have been. We can, however reach Common ground: monogamous sexuality – gay or straight (and please don’t trot out the bestiality references you conservatives). As always, don’t forget the basic Anglican call… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

The Martyrdom of Volontary Abstinence gives Authority over the lay.

Yeah, we have heard that before. The Reformation rejected it.

Charlotte
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Charlotte

Steven, you refer to the document signed by Archbishop Akinola as the “CAPA Letter.” On what grounds do you call it that? How many persons have actually signed it? Whom does it actually represent? I have raised this question twice on Kendall Harmon’s blog, and received no answer. I’d like to raise it here, in hopes of an answer. It’s a serious question. I’d like an answer. Oh, and by the way, Dave: it’s time you read up on current issues in US politics. That is, if you really have no idea why the Episcopal Church resolution you quoted above… Read more »

Andrewdb
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Andrewdb

Davie – the last part of A095 directly addresses a proposed Constitutional Amendment which comes up about every election cycle – a couple of weeks ago is failed in the US Senate, and is likely to be voted on in the US House soon. I agree it is awkward language in the resolution – remember a Camel is said to be a tiger designed by a committee.

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

A Tiger? A Horse!

Nersen
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Nersen

drdanfee

People have been LISTENING to liberal arguments for decades but they are flimsy and lack foundations so few agree….that is why the liberal churches have been shrinking and shrinking despite aiming to be “inclusive.”

nathan
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nathan

Byron,

“We can, however reach Common ground: monogamous sexuality – gay or straight”

Whether from a “conservative” or “liberal” reading, I don’t see that either scripture, or reason, points necessarily to such a specific and severe restriction, at least for gay and lesbian individuals.

Your 150 years of science can tell us that monogamy doesn’t come naturally to men. Perhaps monogamy should be a restriction on lesbian couples only.

Conservatives would be wise to note that the promotion of monogamy for Christians looking for same-sex sexual relationships is probably just a wedge, even if unintentionally so.

Steven
Guest
Steven

Charlotte:

I referred to it that way merely as a matter of convenience. It was posted by Simon. I commented. You raise an interesting issue if you intend to dispute whether it is truly representative of CAPA. However, whether or not it is currently and officially endorsed, I have no doubt it is generally reflective of what they will ultimately say. They’re a conservative bunch, as you know.

Steven