THINKING ANGLICANS

religious news on a Sunday

Today’s newspapers are full of religion:

The Observer has a front page story about the Church of England: the headline reads Some sick babies must be allowed to die, says Church, though the content of the story may not justify that use of “must”. The church document on which this story is based has not yetnow been made public by the Church of England. Read it here. Meanwhile, here is the Nuffield Council for Bioethics report launch page.

The Sunday Times has an article by historian David Starkey not unrelated to his TV series which restarts this week, Henry was wrong. Put religion back in its box. Simon Jenkins reviews the book of the TV programme here.

The Sunday Telegraph has two reports by Jonathan Wynne-Jones
Schools are being forced to put tests before morals, archbishop warns
Chruches [sic] to unite at historic summit against rise in anti-religious public feeling

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E.JonesFord ElmsmynsterpreostMartin ReynoldsDave Recent comment authors
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Dave
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Dave

Hi Simon, you missed out Elton John saying that he wants all organised religions BANNED…. because they don’t approve of same-sex sex: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6140710.stm What is happening in Britain ? Is Christianity suddenly the prime source of all evil? I don’t think so ! Where are these packs of Christians (or Moslems) who are beating up homosexuals or atheists ? So why have people suddenly gone all totalitarian on us? Elton John says: “I think religion has always tried to turn hatred towards gay people,” and said. “Religion promotes the hatred and spite against gays.” But he is making the classic… Read more »

laurence
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laurence

In fact this is what Elton said, in context, recognising that many gays are practising religionists. Rather a moderate statement I’d have thought (Compare & contrast Elton’s words with the statements that pour out from Jo Ratzinger, and his denomination in Rome,and also those of the archbishop in Cardiff and the cardinal in Scotland : — Organized religion fuels anti-gay discrimination and other forms of bias, pop star Elton John said in an interview published Saturday. ‘I think religion has always tried to turn hatred toward gay people,’ John said in the Observer newspaper’s Music Monthly Magazine. ‘Religion promotes the… Read more »

laurence
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laurence

I have found a fuller version of Elton john’s remarks. He is one of many of us nurtured by the Church in childhood and later turned away :– ‘Doesn’t work’ His comments were made in a special gay edition of the Observer Music Monthly Magazine, where he was interviewed by Scissor Sisters’ Jake Shears. “I think religion has always tried to turn hatred towards gay people,” he said. “Religion promotes the hatred and spite against gays. “But there are so many people I know who are gay and love their religion.” According to the singer-songwriter, 59, his solution would be… Read more »

Ford Elms
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Ford Elms

The Church has imprisoned, beaten, and murdered us for centuries. The Church of Nigeria wants to jail us even now. It has been repeatedly shown that the rate of gay bashing goes up when some fundie preacher goes on an anti-gay rant. I think Sir Elton is being an arrogant ass, but if one still hasn’t gotten over one’s adolescent rebelliousness and still needs to stick it to “The Man” then there’s no higher to go than God. Pretty sad really. Still, that doesn’t change the fact despite the “hate the sin, love the sinner” lie, the actions of straight… Read more »

Martin Reynolds
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A quote from an interesting lecture given here a couple of years ago.
“And` by the way` if I may interject that` in parenthesis` that miserable distinction between hating sin and loving the sinners is nonsense` and impossible for you` and impossible for me` and fully impossible for the God of heaven and earth. God hates sin` and God hates the sinner.”
http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_94.htm

Merseymike
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Merseymike

I don’t think the comments were either insulting or arrogant, Ford.

But I think its about time you stopped contributing to your own oppression. Without considerable revision, Christianity is an institutionally and inherently homophobic religion.

Ford Elms
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Ford Elms

No, Merseymike, Christianity is the fullness of God’s self revelation to the world. It got made into a pit prop of society a long time ago, but that doesn’t justify making it into some kind of societal institution like the school system that can be remade as society changes its mind time and again. As to contributing to my own oppression, well, that’s a lovely activist phrase. It’s a buzz word, and just as meaningless as the Evangelical buzzwords like “Bible believing Church”. Just because I’m not out marching in the streets yelling at people and seeing in whose face… Read more »

Dave
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Dave

Martin Reynolds wrote: “that miserable distinction between hating sin and loving the sinners is nonsense` and impossible for you` and impossible for me` and fully impossible for the God of heaven and earth. God hates sin` and God hates the sinner.” Dear Martin, That is not mainstream Christian teaching!! This is:”… God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled… Read more »

Dave
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Dave

Dear Merseymike, The Church does not discriminate against people just because of their homosexual orientation (or any other sexual orientation). We don’t go round attacking or intimidating gay people; we don’t want them to be legally punished; we do support adequate legal provision for people in mutually dependent non-married relationships; and we are generally pretty friendly to anyone who wants to drop by, no questions asked. 🙂 Aren’t you making a mountain out of a mole-hill ? Most people aren’t living by Christian standards nowadays – but they have managed to get used to the idea that the Church disapproves!… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
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Elton John has made the same mistake as his enemies and is thus no better than them. He wants gays to be able to actualize, whilst he advocates the suppression of religion? Physician heal thyself and remove the plank from thine own eye. It is the same with respect for women, respect will not come by changing who is the bully in power. Respect will come from recognising that God made both man and woman, perfect and imperfect: for it is not good to be alone or all the same. It is in diversity and the other that we find… Read more »

laurence
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laurence

Isn’t christianity wonderful ?

Ford Elms
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Ford Elms

“Disapproval is hardly “oppression”!” Absolutely right, Dave. Disowning, beating, jailing, depriving of livelihood, killing, these ARE oppressive, however, and at one time or another, even today, the Church has been guilty of these things. I’m not afraid of your disapproval, Dave, but I am very afraid of bishops who would cast me in jail and think they did God service. Sorry, but your “the Church loves you, we just don’t approve of the sex you have” is a convenient fiction. Before the Church has the moral authority to tell me my relationship is wrong, she has to repent for all… Read more »

laurence
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laurence

Read what Elton said in context –its very moderate, while being honest. He wasn’t making aproposal but expressing his disappointment with religion, and sad remembering the church’s promise of his sunday school days. –no need for card carrying christians to get so defensive.

But we could listen to him and lern from him…
we’re not listening yet–prhaps we never will (Vincent-Starry starry night)

Dave
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Dave

Ford Elms wrote: “Sorry, but your “the Church loves you, we just don’t approve of the sex you have” is a convenient fiction.” Dear Ford Elms, No, it’s the truth. “Love for sinners” is what we are about! The CofE doesn’t do any of those violent things (beating, jailing, depriving of livelihood, killing) to anybody, even the most dispicable criminals. Hasn’t done for ages. In fact we take under our wings a fair share of people who have previously lived very unacceptable criminal / abusive / violent lives! [I think that burnings at the stake went out with duckings and… Read more »

Martin Reynolds
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I think you missed the point here Dave. A substantial number of churches in my country embraced Professor Hanko’s views when we last had a “Moore College” experience some hundred years ago. I think it might even be fair to say that, for a time, this was a “mainstream” view here in Wales – such things come and go it seems. I was trying to avoid being too polemical and merely suggesting, by providing the reference to this article, that when outsiders view a faith they do not necessarily see it as we might wish them to. I have many… Read more »

mynsterpreost
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mynsterpreost

“Anyway, the Church’s moral ideals are not based on her own authority. They are based on what Christians believe to be God’s revealed truth, and order in creation – which condemn the Church’s own errors too!”

As the late James Barr (may he rest in peace and rise in glory) observed, the problem with ConsEv thinking is that it does accept that the Church can err, but locates the sin of the Church in its being insufficiently ConsEv.

mynsterpreost
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mynsterpreost

Anyway, the Church’s moral ideals are not based on her own authority. They are based on what Christians believe to be God’s revealed truth, and order in creation Surely a good Christian should be content simply to rely on God’s truth revealed in scripture, and to hell with what so-called natural theology comes up with. Scripture needs no justification from the natural order, does it. ‘Cos if it does, what does the ConsEv do when the natural order includes ‘unnatural’? We all know the answer — it rejects unpalatable insights from natural theology, so why does it pretend to take… Read more »

Ford Elms
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Ford Elms

Dave, Take off the rose coloured glasses! The Church in Nigeria most certainly wants to imprison, not just us, but those who are in any way supportive of us. We have had conservative Evangelicals in this country claim quite seriously that we shouldn’t be working in jobs where we have to deal with people, or that we shouldn’t be teachers, and try to get us fired. What the Church says and what Her members do are often very different things, Dave. I have no quarrel with your sincere belief that I am called to celebacy because I am gay. I… Read more »

E.Jones
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belonging to any long-standing organised religion makes you an accessory to genocide [your name here] repent, in the name of yourself