Thinking Anglicans

some recent Telegraph articles

Earlier in the week, there was this Daily Telegraph news story by Andrew Pierce Williams may quit over ‘criticism from Carey’ and this comment piece by Damian Thompson The archbishop’s days are numbered.

This article appeared in the Sunday Telegraph today:
I support Rowan: we are working together by George Carey.

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Cheryl CloughlaurencebadmanbobinwashpaMerseymike Recent comment authors
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Merseymike
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Williams has only himself to blame. He abandoned those who supported him and has shown all the backbone of a jellyfish – all in the name of a unity based on prejudice. he should have been proud to be the archbishop who told the fundamentalists where to get off and to go and set up their own church.Instead, he is their puppet, despised and ridiculed by those who have always despised him, and no longer trusted by those who used to do so.

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

Not that Lord Carey’s statements and activities could not be misunderstood, but it seem to me that reporting is more and more being supplanted by politisizing.

Cheryl Clough
Guest

I don’t approve of this conjecture. “Humpty was pushed”. ABC has a hard enough road of it, there are a layer of leaders who say “we want peace”, and if you don’t give it to us we are going to (re)commit violence e.g. break up a communion, resume suicide bombings. They remind me of Esau, unwilling and unable to wait for God to give them their fair proportion and, like Cain, prepared to kill (literally or spiritually) those that deprive them of what they see are their fair rewards. Their maturity is not better than Haggar, who thought that because… Read more »

Sean Doherty
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Thompson’s piece is patently absurd whether you’re a fan of Carey, Williams or both or neither. Ironically I agree to a large extent with you Merseymike in that Rowan Williams has hugely disappointed the ‘left’ in the C of E in not actively pushing forward their agendas. At the same time, he has not swung ‘right’ enough to satisfy conservatives, who are desperate to see stronger leadership on his part. Yet unlike Mike I have a great deal of sympathy for RW, who is in an impossible position. It is difficult to see how he could have acted differently without… Read more »

Ford Elms
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Ford Elms

Besides, it’a not the AbofC’s job to push the agenda of one particular faction in the Church. I have no more patience with left wing totalitarianism than I do with that of the right wing. If the Church is to be a broad tent, then the AbofC has the near impossible task of walking the line between the various factions.

Merseymike
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Merseymike

I actually agree with most of that, Sean, but I would ask what ‘unity’ really means? There clearly isn’t and won’t be genuine unity in terms of opinion, and it appears unlikely that organisational unity alone will satisfy.

I think alienation was inevitable and would ultimately be fruitful – I think RW should be looking towards how to do the only logical thing – commit the Anglican Communion to history, which is where it belongs, and look towards a much looser federation of independent churches, crossing boundaries of geography, with some historical lineage but no genuine relationship today.

dave williams
Guest

Carey makes the important point that when Williams retires he will be probably still actively involved intellectually -indeed the freedom may facilitate his best work yet. That might be considered “unhelpful” by a more conservative ABC if that is what follows. It’s important then that those of us from a conservative point of view respect that and don’t whinge about him undermining the next ABC.

Leonardo Ricardo
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Leonardo Ricardo

“That might be considered “unhelpful” by a more conservative ABC if that is what follows.” Dave

Projecting future problems is “unhelpful” when rationalizing Lord Carey’s behavior.

Lord Carey of Clifton ought raise/keep “bees” instead of instigating “stings” at The Episcopal Church.

Sturring up hornets nests is “unhelpful” anywhere/anytime.

Pluralist
Guest

The Carey piece is one of those that invents another enemy – zealous rampant secularism – in order to have something to unite around. How useful to generate an external enemy when the insides of an institution cannot stick together on its own terms. There has always been a secular intellectual position, whether it is Richard Dawkins, or Ludovic Kennedy or A. C. Grayling, and there has always been a public space, somewhat confused, between the religions and incorporating appearances (or not) – the idea that there is some successful, planning, co-ordinated enemy is just a fiction for internal consumption.

laurence
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laurence

Yes, the Thompson piece is balls.

And if I may mix the metaphore it is clear which axe he is grinding ! Ouch!

I suppose it beats working for a living.

laurence
Guest
laurence

‘What I can warn authorities is that this will not weaken Christian Unions, or Christian leadership in this land, but will make us more determined to stand out – in complete unity.’ George Carey. Huffing & puffing…. Will he blow the house down ? What is he on about ? What is he on ? Must the movers & shakers of ‘the christian world’ -self appointed or otherwisw–show the fervour and sincerity of their faith, by setting up an imaginery enemy to attack ? I’d be much more encourged to see the real issues tackled, human and animal suffering, marginalisation… Read more »

laurence
Guest
laurence

All this talk of ‘secularism’ with terms undefined. I shan’t either. But I have a sense it is partly about freedom from sectarianism(s) & authoritarianism(s) in an organic process of cultural growth. That is culture in a liberal democracy seems to develop freely from many sources, uncoerced by authoritarianism, & free of the limited paradigms of any one political or religious ‘sect’. The Churches are as much a part of this as any other voluntary bodies or movements, in a to & fro, give & take way. Most Churches (and shuls, mosques, temples, gudwaras), and individual congregansts have embraced the… Read more »

Clive Sweeting
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Clive Sweeting

Perhaps it is not altogether untoward for an ex- Anglican to state that although an archbishop has to face the current internal crises of his particular denomination and will be judged on his handling of these,many people also see in Williams a theologian who is in the process of coming to grips with the basic problems of religious belief in our time (problems which are not always to be expressed via homosexual and feminist issues even if these have their place-doubtless from the outset) and a first citizen of GB who has stood up to office-holders when he has judged… Read more »

John-Julian, OJN
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John-Julian, OJN

Please remember that Carey’s homophobic right-wing-ism began many years ago – for instance, when he personally overrode the scheduled defense opportunity for gays on the agenda at Lambeth 1998 (I have friends who had attended in order testify and were simply shown the door), and then Carey personally and politically railroaded through that indefensible anti-gay resolution (101 or whatever).

The man ought to have the common sense to realize that as Lord Carey, he is no longer merely a parish priest, and should keep his wretched mouth shut accordingly.

Kurt
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Kurt

Williams is a disgrace. He should resign NOW!

dave williams
Guest

Merseymike

“I think RW should be looking towards how to do the only logical thing – commit the Anglican Communion to history, which is where it belongs, and look towards a much looser federation of independent churches, crossing boundaries of geography, with some historical lineage but no genuine relationship today.”

It would save on a lot of unpleasantries. It might even be the case that the different elements are able to talk to each other easier once the power struggle is out of the way

Merseymike
Guest
Merseymike

I am sure you are right. After all, ecumenical work goes on despite many differences. Largely because people with utterly incompatible views aren’t sharing the same denomination.

bobinwashpa
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bobinwashpa

Doesn’t the ABC rotate between liberal, conservative and anglo catholic factions? I have to agree with the last two statements. I certainly don’t care if other denominations think I’m going to hell. Example. There are people in my old parish who think I’m going to hell for being supportive of people who have same sex attraction. It doesn’t matter that I believe in the incarnation, the Trinity etc… or that I am the only one who says the rosary. I don’t believe as they do. Some are old family friends. When they’re no longer in my church telling me “I… Read more »

badman
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badman

Lord Carey writes “The problem of what to do with retired archbishops has never been resolved.” If it is a problem, it seems to be of his own making. Lord Carey is the first Archbishop of Canterbury to have retired before the age of 70. Carey – b 1935, retired 2002 (age 67) Runcie – b 1921, retired 1991 (age 70), died 2000 Coggan – b 1909, retired 1980 (age 71), died 2000 Ramsey – b 1904, retired 1974 (age 70), died 1988 Fisher – b 1887, retired 1961 (age 74), died 1972 Temple – b 1881, died in office… Read more »

laurence
Guest
laurence

Badman I like that list and the helpful thoughts arising from your pondering it. Very telling. bobinwashpa on Tuesday, 28 I don’t know where the figures come from (Evangelical protagonists perhaps ?) but I do not think they are accurate. In any average ‘Rural’ Deanery of say 10 to 17 parishes, or so, about 1 or maybe 2 Evangelical parishes would be found. Perhaps one ‘extreme’ anglo-catholic church (Roman rite, Benediction, etc). Then various tractarian, modern, and liberal catholic set ups. Then some broadchurch all likely to be sacramental/ eucharistic in approach. Then one or two low church (but not… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Guest

Looked at previous posting and realised typed Haggar twice (sigh) second time should have been Sarah. Not that anyone cares, but at least I’ve admitted my mistake… Clive, I agree with you that poor ABC has been head at a very awkward time. Many of the debates might have hinged initially around GLBTs or respect for women, but many souls are now seeing how the dynamics apply beyond this limited repertoire. For example, I have loved watching the United Nations and religious groups swing in behind the 16 day campaign against violence towards women (calling on various religious leaders to… Read more »