THINKING ANGLICANS

ECUSA: California property dispute reversal

Episcopal News Service reports that Appeals court favors Episcopal Church, diocese in Los Angeles property cases.

A California Court of Appeal has ruled in favor of the Episcopal Church and the Diocese of Los Angeles in cases where the majority of members of three Episcopal congregations voted to leave the Episcopal Church for oversight by bishops in another Anglican province.

The decision, which overturns rulings by a lower court, comes in the first of the recent cases brought to recover Episcopal Church property retained by congregations now calling themselves St. James Anglican Church, Newport Beach; All Saints’ Anglican Church, Long Beach; and St. David’s Anglican Church, North Hollywood. The congregations voted in August 2004 to amend their articles of incorporation, and maintain that they are now part of the Anglican Province of Uganda.

The trial court had ruled in favor of the departing congregations in August 2005. But the Fourth District Court of Appeal, in an exhaustive 77-page review of U.S. Supreme Court and California appellate decisions as well as a pertinent California statute, held that where a hierarchical church — such as the Episcopal Church — has determined that the real and personal property of subordinate bodies must be used and maintained for the benefit of the larger church, the courts in California must respect and enforce that determination.

The Court of Appeal found that a “‘governing instrument’” of the Episcopal Church — its 1979 “trust” Canon I.7(4) — “expressly impresses a trust on the property of a local church corporation” which must be enforced by the courts.

The court held that in these circumstances “the right of the general [i.e., Episcopal] church in this case to enforce a trust on the local parish property is clear” and declined to “bolster the result … by explaining that an alternative rationale [i.e, the “neutral principles” analysis adopted by numerous courts] leads to the same result.”

The press release from the Diocese of Los Angeles can be found here at present, and is reproduced below the fold.

The press release from the disaffected parishes can be found here.

The text of the decision can be downloaded here as a Word file. Or here as a PDF file.

Los Angeles Diocese Press Release

Landmark court decision upholds diocese’s claim to parish property

LOS ANGELES — The California Court of Appeal, in a 77-page landmark decision issued yesterday, unanimously upheld claims by the Episcopal Diocese of Los Angeles and the national office of The Episcopal Church to the property of three parishes whose leaders and members had left the Episcopal Church in 2004.

Presiding Justice David G. Sills, writing for the Court, concluded “the right of the general church in this case to enforce a trust on the local parish property is clear.”

The Diocese of Los Angeles encompasses the Counties of Los Angeles, San Bernardino, Ventura, Santa Barbara, Orange, and a portion of Riverside County, under the ecclesiastical authority of its bishop diocesan, the Right Reverend J. Jon Bruno.

Three years ago, three parishes of the Diocese—St. James’ in Newport Beach, St. David’s in North Hollywood, and All Saints’ in Long Beach—severed their relationship with the Episcopal Church and Diocese and placed themselves under the jurisdiction of a conservative Anglican bishop in Uganda. Each parish claimed it was entitled to take parish property away from the Episcopal Church and Diocese.

The Diocese, citing church canons which place all parish property in trust for the Episcopal Church and Diocese, asserted it was entitled to retain the property. Litigation followed.

The Court’s ruling yesterday confirms Bishop Bruno’s conviction that parish property cannot be taken away from the larger church by departing members.

“This has been a long ordeal for the Diocese and its faithful members, but we now have clear judicial recognition that parish property is dedicated forever for the mission and ministry of the Episcopal Church,” said the bishop. “While individuals are always free to leave the Episcopal Church and worship however they please, they do not have the right to take parish property with them. We welcome with open arms all persons who desire to be part of the Episcopal ministry, including those persons who chose to leave the Church in 2004.”

John R. Shiner, Chancellor for the Diocese and its attorney in the litigation, called the ruling a “decisive decision” for the Episcopal Church. Shiner, a partner of Holme Roberts & Owen, LLP, noted, “Yesterday’s decision contains the most thorough analysis yet of church property law in California, and should dispel any notion that local congregations of a hierarchical church may leave the larger church and take property with them.”

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NP
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NP

The bible has something to say about lawsuits…but I am sure TEC leaders are able to ignore these verses if inconvenient for them. I would encourage those faithful Anglicans who face lawsuits from TEC to let them have the buildings….they need the assets to sell fund their decline. Better for the growing, faithful churches in TEC at the moment to make their own way, free from the interference of heretical leadership dominating TEC In the AC and CofE however, the leadership is not dominated by heretics so we should see the AC move on from the disruption caused by TEC… Read more »

Merseymike
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Merseymike

Its really all about money, isn’t it – these churches are leaving their denomination – which is the Episcopal Church – but expect to take their assets with them. Crazy.

If they were prepared to simply leave, then they would have a lot more credibility.

Cheryl Clough
Guest

It was a prudent court decision. Otherwise, imagine you could have organised groups of scallywags gallavanting around the countryside and stacking parishes to get the numbers to vote to leave the church and take the assets with them. Not that I am saying that this is what has been happening. But the opposite court decision it would have been a terrible precedent as it some machevellian schemer would eventually have thought of it as a strategy and proceeded to act it out. Churches with a large dose of arrogant hecklers do find it hard to build robust congregations. Get rid… Read more »

Pluralist
Guest

You wish, NP, you wish. You’re not paying attention. Rwanda is taking a walk, and doing so on the basis that it sees the Anglican Communion continuing on with discussions. If the Nigerians and Ugandans follow the logic of Rwanda, then the Anglican Communion will favour the tolerant and not the selective literalists. The thinkg about broken records is that they need replacing, especially when there is an updated version. Of course you may say that the invitations can include the AMiA bishops, Minns and company to get the Rwandans (and the rest?) back, but then they would have to… Read more »

Prior Aelred
Guest

Everything that Pluralist said at 12:59pm BST — the stated rationale of The Windsor Report was to try to keep the Communion together, but the Evangelicals keep using it as a weapon to break the Communion apart — ditto the Proposed Covenant.

I don’t understand why The Southern Cone & Southeast Asia are taking so long to join Nigeria, Uganda, Rwanda & Sydney in “walking apart” from the WWAC.

Jeffrey
Guest
Jeffrey

NP, the Bible also has a few things to say about coveting and stealing, which the “reasserters” seem to happily ingore.

Those congregations that have joined the AMiA have credibility because as a rule they have either left their buildings or paid for them, unlike the current crop of the disgruntled.

The courts here in Massachusetts have also ruled in favor of the leadership of “hierarchical” churches (Episcopal and Roman Catholic) in property disputes, that the church and not the parish owns both property and buildings.

Merseymike
Guest
Merseymike

The ‘Road to Lambeth’ makes it clear that for the fundamentalists of the so-called Global South, there is no place for discussion, no listening process, and no place for any sffirming gay or lesbian people in the church nor anyone who supports them.

This doesn’t have majority support in the CofE and if it is the way the GS wish the Communion to go, then they may well have to do it under alternate leadership.

Leonardo Ricardo
Guest
Leonardo Ricardo

“The bible has something to say about lawsuits…”

Then there is the awkward Commandments to consider…something about stealing and coveting…ah well, the attempted and selective hate/fear mongering agaist LGBT Christians continues at The Body of Christ with little hope of “loving one another” at this particular moment in Global South/Network time.

drdanfee
Guest
drdanfee

Is this all just about Breeding? I keep hearing and reading idealized narratives from realignment folks that explicitly and implicitly mention numbers, size of allegedly larger realignment believer congregations, combined often with preachments that prog-lib believers are faltering in numbers, dying off in the face of real bibilical vigor, and goodness knows what else. The overlapping queer communities are familiar with size queens, historically and otherwise. But it is an odd moment when this size oriented realignment narrative falls into its typically self-congratulating and self-praising places. But we might face some facts. Foremost among the facts is that most of… Read more »

NP
Guest
NP

Jeffrey et al (for the nth time), the issue is that some in the AC want to justify a particular sin….you will find no evangelicals in the AC seeking to justify greed or pride etc etc

Pluralist….I am missing nothing….I am telling you that the ABC will cave and withdraw invites to TEC bishops and you will see Lambeth 2008 with Rowan Williams, Peter Akinola, Bob Duncan and Peter Jensen all having a very productive time….without proceedings being hijacked by a tiny special interest group

Robert Leduc
Guest
Robert Leduc

It isn’t all about the money/property, but it is important. The conservatives have realized after their “mass walkout” over women’s ordination that most of the people in the pews don’t really follow these national stories and don’t really care – they’ll stay in the pews of their church building under virtually any bishop. So in order to maintain a following, they need to take the property with them. Otherwise, they would have simply walked out some time ago. They could easily have gotten one of the existing continuing Anglican bishops to welcome them in to the fold. No need for… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“even if the local church is separately incorporated, bought and maintained the property.”

The “local church” is the diocese, not the parish, unless someone made the Anglican Church congregationalist while I wasn’t looking. Howbeit that these Anglicans, who presumably recite one of the Creeds at least once a Sunday, if not every day in their prayers, seem not to understand that the Anglican church holds fast the CATHOLIC faith? There are lots of congregationalist protestants out there, we’re not.

Malcolm+
Guest
Malcolm+

Of course, I’m a bit suspicious about how a “majority” in each parish voted for schism. After all, we have recent evidence from Colorado one was only allowed to vote if one had already signed on for the schismatic scheme.

Richard T. Nolan
Guest

Both 70, we plan to leave the bulk of our estate to our own well established schools, colleges and universities and a portion to three very responsible TEC congregations – one of which is quite small. One criterion in our planning is the genuine inclusivity of recipients. We intend to be good stewards (as we see it) of our late parents’ and our estates. (With no siblings, we’re the end of our biological family line.) Until it becomes very clear that dissenting clergy/parishes cannot take property and invested bequests with them as they leave, we would not even consider including… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Guest

drdanfee It is important to be aware that there are multiple subcultures that interact with each other. Some of the methods you use to describe how people express themselves come from a culture that is brash and bold and they have the biggest in the world (and will build something bigger if someone out gazzumps them). They might dominate the media airwaves, but they have only existed for a short time as God measures history. The history of Christianity is usually more modest and discreet. Mind you, quietness does not necessarily ensure saintliness. Being too quiet can be just a… Read more »

Jerry Hannon
Guest
Jerry Hannon

NP, continuing his/her delusions about what is actually happening in the global Anglican Communion, posted: “Pluralist….I am missing nothing….I am telling you that the ABC will cave and withdraw invites to TEC bishops and you will see Lambeth 2008 with Rowan Williams, Peter Akinola, Bob Duncan and Peter Jensen all having a very productive time….without proceedings being hijacked by a tiny special interest group” Along with his/her ever-repeating mantra of “Dromantine, TWR, and Tanzania,” which we must all realize by now are NP’s equivalent of the Council of Nicaea, we are now being treated to delicious predictions of what is… Read more »

Bob in SWpa
Guest
Bob in SWpa

NP, quote “without proceedings being hijacked by a tiny special interest group;” does that mean GLBT folks in the church and their supporters? That’s simply mean spirited. Dont’ know where you’ll find that in scripture. That comment makes me think of that star trek phrase “resistance is futile. You will be assimulated.” We’ll all be part of the collective. My idea of a real church. Everyone is like minded, no thinking necessary, pray, pay and obey. In Pennsylvania, the state has ruled in favor of the Heirarchical church. Several of the former parishes closed by the Roman Catholic Diocese of… Read more »

Pluralist
Guest

So, according to P, he will be bullied and be forced to change decision, in other words a different decision from that he has made now and wishes to make. Good to know you possess a crystal ball, NP, whereas I am going on what is actually happening.

John Henry
Guest
John Henry

Malcom+ mentioned the situation in Colorado Springs. Don Armstrong, the disaffected Rector and architect of the secession to CANA from the TEC Diocese, has gone on record over at SFiF that the 4th District Appellate Court in California’s ruling in the property dispute will soon be overturned. “It is slam dunk,” said the C.I.A. director about the ‘incontrovertible evidence’ of Saddam’s possession of WMD before the U.S. invasion of Iraq. Don Armstrong, inhibited by his canonical Bishop for misusing parish funds, which allegations have been substantiated by a forensic audit team, hence the Standing Committee’s presentment against him, may, I… Read more »

JCF
Guest
JCF

“I am telling you that the ABC will cave”

With friends like you, NP, Rowan hardly needs enemies! ;-/

*****

I pray for reconciliation in California (as everywhere else). The legal decision, however, was really the only one available to the court, based upon established precedent. I wonder how many votes for schism are being made on the bill-of-goods that the schismatic *leaders* are selling? (“I promise: we can get a new, orthodox bishop in a no-gays-allowed Anglican church, and keep our property!”).

It’s those schismatic leaders who are responsible for this mess… 🙁

Lord have mercy!

Leonardo Ricardo
Guest
Leonardo Ricardo

Dang right! I don’t want any anti-other-Christian ANYBODY running off with my Great Grannies pretty Church window (she would have shot them for theiv’n and saved all the litigation money)…I know, we’re so “American”…but just remember we’re direct decendents of you at the CoE so the apple didn’t fall too far from King Henry’s tree!

John Bassett
Guest
John Bassett

NP and the other conservatives always argue that the Episcopal Church is in serious decline while the conservative parishes, dioceses, and provinces are growing. So, if this is the case, why are they so upset? Won’t the liberals just disappear in time and be replaced by the faithful, orthodox conservatives? Why not just sit back and watch the historically inevitable take place? Why bother to fight hard when you cannot possibly lose? The fact that the conservatives are fighting so hard against ECUSA (and the Canadians, the Scots, and a good deal of the church in England, Australia, New Zealand,… Read more »

NP
Guest
NP

Pluralist says “I am going on what is actually happening…” – really???? When you ignore recent history so easily, I wonder if you do understand what is happening. A few people above want to pretend Dromantine, TWR and the Tanzania Communique never happened or do not matter……..and the same people are against the covenant which will also come into being (to give the AC some order rather than the chaos now reigning) And, some don’t like the idea that the ABC will cave…but he has done it before you know (facts again!) eg Jeffrey John, Tanzania and at other times……he… Read more »

Tim
Guest

`Why not just sit back and watch the historically inevitable take place? Why bother to fight hard when you cannot possibly lose?’

I think that’s the defining misfeature of conservatism. Always seeing something to fight about – obvious enemies are ignored not loved and supposed friends fought with. Pull the other one, it hath bells on.

mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)
Guest
mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)

“The ABC will cave.”

What interesting use of language. One is persuaded by argument. One caves in to threats. Thanks, NP for your confession that the GS antics are not to do with discussion but with intimidation. How very Christian.

NP
Guest
NP

Really John Basset?? I don’t see the logic in your assertion. Just so you know, conservatives oppose false teaching because it MISleads people about what the Lord actually said and did.

Our message is quite strong enough, thanks – see The Windsor Report, the Tanzania Communique and the upcoming Covenant…..sorry to bring up real facts!

C.B.
Guest
C.B.

One thing that the California case makes abundantly clear (along with the recent Florida and South Carolina cases) is that keeping the property is now a very long (and costly) long shot, including rolling the dice with the SCOTUS. A prospect they probably thought was likely, but that they would be not being the ones seeking relief, TEC would. Further, the Duncanites and Cananites have long banked on TEC being disciplined by the AC, and their being able to lay claim to being the “real” Anglican Province in the U.S. with TEC/815 being the breakaway. Hence, all the hyped up… Read more »

Johhn Robison
Guest
Johhn Robison

NP- If I was the supporter of a crowd of men who hijacked the LAST Lambeth and who now demand that it become a curial congress for their own ego’s sake, I would be very careful what insults I toss about. You’re sounding desperate. Face these facts: There has been no pressure on Canada, New Zealand, South Africa and the rest because there is no money behind it. Also, the Lord had a good deal more to say about hypocrisy, greed, hate and judgment than he did about sex. Don’t try and use fundamentalist eisegesis to invent meaning in unrelated… Read more »

drdanfee
Guest
drdanfee

Ah yes the closed legacy presumption of those special sorts of sexual orientation sin ascribed now to everybody who is not straight, definitional. Repeating this allegedly biblical framework ad nauseam will do as little – and for about as long – as repeating the legacy biblical views that supposedly commanded women to refrain from higher education, or that supported the revelation that Ptolemy had gotten the model of the cosmos just right, settled, correct. The review in Jack Rogers’ book, juxtaposing how the scriptures definitively tell us these revelation things is maybe a good place to start looking. See: http://www.drjackrogers.com… Read more »

Lapinbizarre
Guest
Lapinbizarre

Frankly, NP, I’ve had it up to here with being lectured about “false teaching”. The only folks who can validly, from their standpoint (which obviously is not my standpoint), lecture me on scriptural absolutes are strict (and I mean STRICT – Six Day Creation, Noah’s Flood, the whole shebang) fundamentalists. No one who equivocates on anything that is in Holy Writ can get in my face and tell me that this, that or the other is “false teaching”. By the act of questioning or rejecting six-day creation; of doubting the truth of the Garden of Eden and the Creation of… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“conservatives oppose false teaching because it MISleads people about what the Lord actually said and did.” No, NP, conservatives oppose what they consider to be false teaching when it makes them able to exert power over others, and when it does not contradict their own comfortable world view. How many divorced and remarried conservatives are there? How many anti-gay bishops, or priests or laypeople, are gay themselves and hiding in marriages? How many conservative clergy see nothing wrong with the obscenity of blessing a battleship? And, as to what the Lord said and did, I notice a distinct absence of… Read more »

Pluralist
Guest

But, you see, the Archbishop of Canterbury is well aware of those facts: The Windsor Report, the Tanzania Communique (the upcoming Covenant is not a fact), and Dromantine, and on this basis has decided, for Lambeth 2008, not to invite certain people and to invite others, including those who consecrated Gene Robinson. Quote, to Time: Of course, exclusion is not particularly a Gospel idea. The election and ordination of Gene Robinson was an event which many in the Communion had warned would deepen our divisions. Similarly, with Martyn Minns, there had been warnings that [his missionary assignment in the U.S.]… Read more »

Bob in SWpa
Guest
Bob in SWpa

NP wrote, “Just so you know, conservatives oppose false teaching because it MISleads people about what the Lord actually said and did.” REALLY! Talk about misleading. Today I received a parish news letter from a neighboring network/orthodox parish. The rector writes, ” The Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church denies that Jesus is the Son of God: tells us that the Virgin Birth of Chirst is a myth, and endorses the idea that Christ really didn’t die for our sins as she regards the Scarifice of Christ on the Cross as “cosmic child abuse.” Seems to me this rectors parishoners… Read more »

Richard Zevnik
Guest
Richard Zevnik

John Henry: Rev. Armstrong thereby shows his ignorance of both the applicable substantive law and California appellate procedure. There is no right of appeal from the Court of Appeal to the CA Supreme Court. One can only petition for review, grant of which is discretionary, and rarely extended. In my experience, a grant of review is unlikely, although I fully expect the disaffected congregations to seek review in the CA Supreme Court. Review in the US Supreme Court is also discretionary. There is no right of appeal to the US Supreme Court from decisions of state court courts of appeal… Read more »

mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)
Guest
mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)

Having just attended a lecture given by a very eminent Christian NT scholar, it was interesting to note that the people most agitated in the room by what Jesus (and for that matter, Paul) ‘really said’ were the diocesan conservative evangelicals.

Cheryl Clough
Guest

A god that is only for the repentant and pure cannot be the god for all the peopleS of all the nationS. A god that does not provide justice for the afflicted and outcaste has no authority over the afflicted and outcaste. A god that is willing to expel souls based on limitations or refusal to renounce family members and friends is not a god to be trusted. It certainly doesn’t sound like the God of gods, who makes promises to both male and female; young and old; alien, slave, beast or human, eunuch or barren or fertile; pure or… Read more »

Lapinbizarre
Guest
Lapinbizarre

Further to Richard Zevnik, the US Supreme Court is now dominated by a cabal of five Roman Catholic conservatives. A ruling by the court against TEC would have considerable implications for the property rights of other “hierarchical” churches – notably those of RC dioceses in the US. I would be exceedingly surprised if the court favoured breakaway parishes.

John Henry
Guest
John Henry

Thank you, the Hon. Mr. Zevnik, for clarifying the legal process, which makes Supreme Court intervention discretionary.

Mr. Anderson, under investigation for misappropriation of parish funds by the Diocese of Colorado, and now presented for trial, misled his parishioners at Grace and St. Stephen’s Church when they voted to seccede from TEC with their claim to church property intact, saying that possession was 90% of the law. Obviously, he is not a reliable person nor legally savvy.

Pluralist
Guest

Oh have I missed something David? Anyway, John Bassett said: Won’t the liberals just disappear in time and be replaced by the faithful, orthodox conservatives? More to the point, why haven’t they long gone? Because, of course, liberal minded believers keep being made. They are either made from former evangelicals or traditionalists, who keep reading, or thinking through, or they come (like me) from the secular, plural, world and keep reading, or thinking through. I think I can safely say there is a chap in our church who spent some time in India and, said to me, it can’t but… Read more »

NP
Guest
NP

Ford – too often you argue that x should be allowed because others do y and y is questionable too……I often find I agree with you that y is not right…..but this is not at all convincing as an argument for tolerating false teaching on X I agree with the view that we should not get too excited about current events and invitations…..eg whether or not VGR is a guest or whatever property dispute TEC is fighting in the courts. We are now waiting for TEC’s September decisions. I still think the RECORD of the ABC (if you see Jerffrey… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“Ford – too often you argue that x should be allowed because others do y and y is questionable too” No, NP, I do not. I’m not saying one sin should be allowed because another is. My argument is: “How can you, in good conscience, argue that the “other side” is guilty of ignoring parts of Scripture when your side does the same thing?” Here’s one of many examples: Divorce used to be a no-no, based on Scripture. Then the Church, in direct contrast to Scripture, said otherwise. How many of “your” leaders are divorced and remarried? They are CLEARLY… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Guest

Ford, You might find Zechariah 11 useful, which includes “So I pastured the flock marked for slaughter, PARTICULARLY the oppressed of the flock. Then I took two staffs and called one Favor and the other Union, and I pastured the flock… I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations. It was revoked on that day, and so the afflicted of the flock who were watching me knew it was the word of the LORD. I told them, “If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not,… Read more »

Mark
Guest
Mark

Richard Zevnik says “Review in the US Supreme Court is also discretionary. There is no right of appeal to the US Supreme Court from decisions of state court courts of appeal or state supreme courts. Since the Fourth District Court of Appeal’s decision rests solidly on existing US Supreme Court precedent, the likelihood of that court granting a petition for a writ of certiorari is nil.” Though the Supreme Court has become activist conservative (overthrowing long established precedent), and it’s not clear what that would mean for this issue. Lapinbizarre points out it’s now “dominated by a cabal of five… Read more »

NP
Guest
NP

Ford – none of my direct leaders are divorced and remarried….and I would have issues if any of them were – given I am trying to be consistent

Edward of Baltimore
Guest
Edward of Baltimore

NP – greetings. Over and over you refer to September 30 as a sort of Red Letter Doom’s Day far worse than Y2K, and Lambeth, Dromatine, Windsor, and Tanzania like they’re written on stone tablets Moses brought down the mountain. I can almost imagine you licking your lips in anticipation every time you mention any one of them. What do you expect to happen October 1? What will you read when you open the papers that glorious day? That the ABC has called the PB and said, “Bad girl. You’re out.” Or that the U.S. courts have decided TEC must… Read more »

JCF
Guest
JCF

“the orthodox who did NOT tear the fabric of the communion in 2003” If only because the (self-professed, incessantly) “orthodox” did so at Lambeth ’98 . . . if not *years* earlier! For all the talk of “the gay agenda”, it is fact the extreme conservatives of this Communion who have schemed, and strategized, and engineered schism—some going back as far as WO in the 70s (both those who stayed, nominally, within the AC, and those who joined “continuing” churches, but never gave up the dream of “recapturing the castle”—if not of Lambeth, per se, then a putative Lambeth-substitute like… Read more »

Mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)
Guest
Mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)

NP: none of my direct leaders are divorced and remarried Rspectfully, NP, that mattereth not a stuff in the present debate. Simply, a large number of those espousing an anti-gay position seem to have no problem with divorce and remarriage, including some very vociferous commentators. The special pleading which accompanies many conservative postings, finding good reason to ignore the biblically-condemned practices of divorce (or the old pal of usury by the tool of redefinition) seem to me to have a whiff of self-serving about them. I can stand the redefinition of biblically condemned activities, but not when a shutter drops… Read more »

JPM
Guest
JPM

Edward of Baltimore, before it was September 30, it was GC2006 that would mark the end of TEC. Then it was the recent primates conclave that would end with TEC kicked out and Bob Duncan triumphantly paraded through the streets of Dar es Salaam on a sedia gestatoria adorned with the skulls of his enemies. Then it was the Lambeth invitations that were really going to show us when we all got left out except for the Duncanites. It is a safe bet that wishful thinkers will come up with some new doomsday in the fall. Hope springs eternal, you… Read more »

selah
Guest
selah

Ford, You wrote, “My argument is: “How can you argue that the “other side” is guilty of ignoring parts of Scripture when your side does the same thing? …example: Divorce” But, of course, you don’t mean to say that orthodox Christians BLESS divorce. They don’t say that some people are just MEANT to be divorced and that God will bless their divorcedness. As one orthodox minister explained, “Divorce is a sin, but it is not an unforgivable sin.” What the reappraisers are trying to say is that behavior that is biblically defined as sinful should actually be blessed, and the… Read more »

Alan
Guest

With regard to the following:

“In this the new Puritans remind me of those early Jehovah’s Witness who confidently predicted the end of the world several times, each time setting a new date when the Apocalypse failed to arrive as scheduled.”

Posted by: JPM on Friday, 29 June 2007 at 11:25pm BST

I believe this may help to clarify:

“The Churches, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and the Question of Unfulfilled Prophetic Expectations”

http://jehovah.to/exe/general/prophetic.htm

Agape, Alan.