Thinking Anglicans

Sentamu interviewed on ABC radio

The Australian Broadcasting Corporation’s National Radio programme, The Religion Report carried this interview of the Archbishop of York, conducted by Stephen Crittenden.

There are audio links on the same page if you prefer to listen to it.

But do read it all, carefully.

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Ford ElmsNPJerry HannonCheryl CloughMerseymike Recent comment authors
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Merseymike
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Merseymike

Very interesting

Its clear that he does not think that sexuality is a first-order issue, that he believes the discussion should continue, that he thinks ECUSA jumped the gun, and that he thinks that the Global South have not obeyed the Windsor Report either.

What this is very much not is any sort of endorsement of Akinolaism.

Pluralist
Guest

What is right about what John Sentamu says regarding Lambeth 2008 is that if they don’t turn up they are going. Interesting on what he says specifically about the gay and lesbian issue – that if there is continuing to listen about this then that listening prevents it being the “dominant theological factor for the whole of the communion”. He has a point, that only when such listening is concluded does it become that (if it does – and I doubt for him it would, given what he says everyone agrees upon). People who say the Archbishop of Canterbury distances… Read more »

NP
Guest
NP

Sentamu does not decide the future of the AC – you guys know that, right?+I hope Akinola et al come to Lambeth….even if the ABC refuses to resolve anything before then, faithful Anglicans from around the world should all be at Lambeth to vote and keep the AC faithful to its scriptures and traditions. If anything, we will get stronger AC positions than 1.10…..bring it on! But watch the ABC – he will do whatevr is needed to keep the GS in the AC because they did not cause the current chaos in the AC…they are responding to very aggressive… Read more »

John Richardson
Guest
John Richardson

The Lambeth Conference is a meeting to which Anglican bishops are invited. If they choose not to go, they don’t thereby cease to be Anglican bishops!

Cynthia
Guest
Cynthia

“TEC’s demands”

Those being? Much has been demanded of TEC – but what “demands” has TEC attempted to impose on anyone? Nobody has demanded or asked any other province to ordain copled gays or pronounce marital blessings on gay couples.

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

I find it refreshing that he acknowledges the bad behaviour of both sides. None of the petulant squealing of “Mean old TEC didn’t listen to us and walked over all the rest of us and we’ll get them, we will!!!” Of course, this means nothing to those who behave like that, mature self-examination not being all that evident in their behaviour. Besides, they can’t politically afford now to come out and admit that they have been just as quick to act, and more provocative in their words and actions, than TEC has ever been, even if they were mature enough… Read more »

ruidh
Guest
ruidh

NP, I thought the archbishops of York and Canterbury jointly decide who is in communion with the CofE. If there’s a mechanism for kicking someone out, that would be it.

Davis d'Ambly
Guest
Davis d'Ambly

“Sentamu does not decide the future of the AC – you guys know that, right?” NP

Neither does the archbishop of Nigeria, thank you.

choirboyfromhell
Guest
choirboyfromhell

I have heard rumors and some talk of ECUSA bishops (my own included) of boycotting Lambeth.

This must not happen, and I hope that my fellow bloggers of the USA will encourage their bishops to do what ++Sentamu exhorts.

Ultimately, whether some like it or not, this will be solved by consensus. This has brought about reminding me how the Philadelphia Eleven, through their “irregular and illegal” ordinations, finally prodded the Church into a greater sense of God’s creation. Despite the ecclesiastical trials and outright silly whining, I think that few of us can really comprehend going backwards.

Marshall Scott
Guest

John Richardson:

Perhaps not; but if significant blocks stay away (from either pole or from both) the Lambeth Conference is not what it has been. And as an “Instrument of Unity” for the Communion, changes in it reflect and/or predict changes in the Communion. In that case, arguably none of us is “Anglican” in the same way that we have been.

JCF
Guest
JCF

Re “TEC jumped the gun” If ++York means the election, consent, and consecration of +GR, it’s difficult to imagine otherwise. Interesting to compare to South Carolina: that diocese operated *improperly* (vis-a-vis the consent process), and now has come right back to elect Mark Lawrence again. If New Hampshire (which did act properly) had been turned down at GC ’03, does anyone think it likely that they would not have done the same as South Carolina just has (that is, re-elect THEIR choice, Gene Robinson)? Where does this end? …unless by *accepting* provincial autonomy, of the different AC churches (i.e., what’s… Read more »

Cynthia Gilliatt
Guest
Cynthia Gilliatt

“I have heard rumors and some talk of ECUSA bishops (my own included) of boycotting Lambeth.”

I hope none do. I hope all who attend feel moved to wear small pink triangle pins on their finery.

Neil
Guest
Neil

bring it on…bring it on…bring it on…so she nags! However, the analysis is wrong, as already the Akinolite and Evo capital is spent re ++RW and there is only so far down the line of trying to indulge you anti-gay guys and gals that anybody can tolerate.

Cheryl Clough
Guest

I found the character description of Amin interesting (reminds me of my friend’s phrase ‘the smiling assassin’). I also loved this imagery ‘The higher the baboon climbs the tree, the more it reveals its rather less attractive parts.’ The other thing that pleased me is that when he looked at the problems of overcoming racism, he also mentioned other historical mistreatments e.g. of women. When people want to cry “victim”, it doesn’t hurt to look who else has been victimised. Those who have taken on extreme repression can tell you that GLBTs have always been an early target for brutality.… Read more »

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

Cheryl
“A wall is breached at its weakest point. If GLBTs are excluded from communion and human dignity, that is the breach point to where other souls get swept into brutality e.g. those who would advocate or shelter GLBTs from smiling assassins.”

That’s an interesting point. Does it mean that the cause is only incidental? That if conflict in that area is removed, the battle will simply move on to the next bounday issue?

Lapinbizarre
Guest
Lapinbizarre

“….faithful Anglicans from around the world should all be at Lambeth to vote and keep the AC faithful to its scriptures and traditions. If anything, we will get stronger AC positions than 1.10…..bring it on!” – NP on Lambeth “….. it is not a parliament; it is not a legislative body, it doesn’t have any constitutional power, it does not have power to take decision for anybody ….. the meeting is consultative and advisory.” – Archbishop Akinola on Lambeth Wishful thinking time again? Remember who popularized the expression “bring it on”? Reminder, if needed – it was a certain American… Read more »

Chris
Guest
Chris

JCF,

The election of Robinson was proper in a legal sense – the issue is his qualification as a bishop while living in a SSR. I suspect you know that.

Lord, grant wisdom!

Malcolm+
Guest
Malcolm+

The simple act of staying away from Lambeth is, in and of itself, of no relevance. I understand that many bishops of the Communion – including the then Archbishop of York – gave the first Lambeth a pass. However, holding an alternate Lambeth would, I think, be a little bit different. And, NP, His Grace of York (unlike His Grace of Abuja) is not claiming to decide who is in and who is out. He is merely noting that people will make their own choices – and that choices have consequences. Just remember, NP. When you decamp from the Church… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Guest

Erika You raise a good question. If the answer is only quantitative, then yes, the conflict will move on to the next boundary issue. If the answer is qualitative, then the whole wall is embued with the precedent that protects the first potentital breach. That is why Jesus exhorts us to not only love those who would flatter or help us, but also those that are “our enemies”. e.g Matthew 5:43-48, My limited recollection seems to recall a recent Schori article where she quoted as stating that the people who would repress are a very small minority. She seems to… Read more »

JCF
Guest
JCF

“the issue is [Gene Robinson’s] qualification as a bishop while living in a SSR. I suspect you know that.”

What I know, was that +GR was HONEST enough that, in the NH diocesan election info documents, to list “Spouse: Mark Andrew”.

I don’t see honesty as an issue, Chris—but I suspect you know that. ;-/

“Lord, grant wisdom!”

Amen!

drdanfee
Guest
drdanfee

All those realignment Anglican believers who so often seem to make comments, relying on the implicit idea that more policing and punishment of people in committed same sex relationships will be key to all of us being properly saved, might take note that the Lutherans/ELCA has just voted in annual assembly to the opposite. ELCA urges that such alternative thinking believers/pastors be extended the good benefit of a faith-inspired doubt. See: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070811/us_nm/religion_lutherans_dc Anticipate that this assembly vote will be quickly spun into some sort of Anything Goes doomsday preachment. Alas, Lord have mercy. Believers are clearly not of a single… Read more »

Pluralist
Guest

Well according to the Church of England Newspaper, the Diocese of Sydney is holding back its replies regarding turning up at Lambeth 2008 according to what happens at the end of September 2007.

http://www.anglican-mainstream.net/?p=1988

Meanwhile, the rhetoric against the Archbishop of Canterbury increases.

http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=6482

All this, it seems to me, is evidence of positions already set out, as well as an attempt to lean on Rowan Williams. They ar elike greyhounds in the traps, ready to run, except they’ve been turned around to run the other way.

Cheryl Clough
Guest

Pluralist, Unfortunately, like the greyhounds in the stalls, if they could get their teeth on the rabbit, they would maul it. They forgot that God is protective the orphan, the afflicted, the outcaste; and even the beasts of the air, sea and skies. Ezekiel 12:13 “I will spread my net for him, and he will be caught in my snare; I will bring him to Babylonia…” Amos 3:3-7 “Do two walk together unless they have agreed to do so? Does a lion roar in the thicket when he has no prey? Does he growl in his den when he has… Read more »

Chris
Guest
Chris

drdanfee said, “Believers are clearly not of a single conservative view – let alone does any significant portion of educated believers still hold to a completely unaltered legacy view, not even about how central the sexuality hot button domains might be.” What you do you mean by “significant portion” and how do you propose to test this theory? By what measure do you claim a believer become “educated” and in what discipline are they trained? My favorite is “completely unaltered legacy view” Where do you draw the baseline? c100 AD? Mid 12th C? 1622? 1953? Instead of making baseless assertions… Read more »

NP
Guest
NP

Lapin, Malcolm….you accuse me of being in denial etc….but this liberal ABC gave us TWR and the Tanzania Communique………what is your optimism based on that he is now going to let the AC split in order to please a small minority which obviously cares little for the untity of the AC (unlike the ABC, if you look at his actions!)???

Cheryl Clough
Guest

Unity at what cost? Long sleeves and sunglasses so that parishioners can pretend we aren’t hiding bruises from the violence of our husbands? Women who do not cry in public because that proves we are evil, and that males do not care how we are talked about. Christian domination, and abuse from our husbands, as the alternative is abuse by “other” men. The irony being that our own males don’t care how much we are insulted or vilified, as long as they don’t personally suffer sexual misconduct. Some males hate homosexuality, simply because it makes them potential victims to what… Read more »

Merseymike
Guest
Merseymike

Chris ; your mistake is to assume that Scripture cannot be both 1) wrong, and 2) historically and culturally bound – essentially expressing the mores of the men who wrote it.

Conservatives need to get real and recognise the problems are caused byu the inflated authority they give to this human production.

Lapinbizarre
Guest
Lapinbizarre

NP, at Dar es Salaam “this liberal ABC” certified TEC as being Windsor compliant. To say that he gave “us” (to paraphrase the old Lone Ranger joke, “who’s ‘us’, Evo?”) the Tanzania communiqué, is simply an additional indication of the depth of aforementioned denial.

choirboyfromhell
Guest
choirboyfromhell

Here’s a class for you to attend Cheryl, in case you don’t know your place in Christianity. I’m sure they provide an apron to hide those black and blue marks.

This is what “Christianity” is becoming in the states.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/K/KY_RELIGION_TODAY_KYOL-?SITE=KYLOU&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

“This is what “Christianity” is becoming in the states.”

It never ceases to amaze me that women go along with this!

NP
Guest
NP

Lapin…..you’re so busy trying to score points that you forget the report you mention was not accepted by the Primates….and anyway, remember what the Tanzania Communique said….it gave a deadline for an unequivocal response from …..TEC (nobody else, you know that, right??)

Plus, remember the ABC has reserved the right to withdraw invitations to Lambeth 08 (you can pretend he does not have TEC bishops in mind…but everyone else knows he does)

Come on rabbit…..facts is facts

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

Erika, Some women go along with it because they would lose power by opposing. Women have been socialized into a disempowered position, but this has meant that women’s power is exerted in other, more subtle and unhealthy ways. In many parishes, the traditional power structure has been visibly in the hands of men, but women have exerted real, and in some cases the greater, power, just subtly. I come from such a “closet matriarchy”. In some places relatively recently there had to be ten men for a quorum to hold a congregational meeting. Yet, it was the women who discussed… Read more »

Lapinbizarre
Guest
Lapinbizarre

NP accusing ME of “scoring points”? Whatever next? I’m sorry, NP, but I cannot live in a fantasy world. I was born with a brain, and would far sooner go through life using it critically, than clinging endlessly to “certainties” that serve shore up my prejudices and insecurities.

Malcolm+
Guest
Malcolm+

So far, +Cantuar has apparently chosen to invite all but the most polarizing figures on each side.

People will now choose whether or not to accept the invitation – with Sydney playing silly-bugger asking for an extension.

+Ebor has now affirmed that those who chose to reject the invitation will find their choice fraught with consequence.

That, my friend, is the source of my optimism.

Cheryl Clough
Guest

Choirboy. Unfortunately for some it is not becoming, but rather having the veils lifted on what has been there for decades or even centuries. Ford Praise be to the secular state. For example, when I was a young girl, a woman who left her husband in Australia was more likely to have herself and her children killed than if she remained with her violent husband. I still remember a hunting knife been thrown at my mother when I was ten, there was a gouge in the hall plaster for many years to remind us of the violence that was always… Read more »

NP
Guest
NP

Lapin – I note you do not address my point….the ABCs actions in Tanzania (and with J John,TWR and now the covenant) encourage me….what is the basis of your optimism? Malcolm….have you seen the Telegraph report which says only a couple of hundred (out of 880) Anglican bishops have responded to the ABC by his July 31st deadline? The ABC is not getting the response he would like from his brother bishops…..if you look at his past behaviour when he realises the strength of feeling in the AC, I think you will see him ensure that Lambeth 08 is not… Read more »

Pluralist
Guest

There seems to be a new version of predestination Calvinism: what NP thinks the Archbishop of Canterbury will do. I mean I read something different according to what he has written, but I don’t know what he will do.

NP
Guest
NP

Pluralist….so funny…you and others here just hate to admit what the ABC has done in the last few years….I know it is because he has not been dancing to the pressure group’s tunes but he has done what he has done and (while he is slow), I agree with his big decisions to date

Cheryl Clough
Guest

Chris wrote some time earlier “please produce a single credible theological case that makes the case for the Scripture not only tolerating but blessing homosexuality.” Actually some very good cases have been put forward about tolerating homosexuality (the precedents with eunuchs work), but the homophobes refuse to acknowledge the theology. The same as they would refuse to recognise Jesus incarnate if he advocated tolerance to homosexuals, and any miracles or divine affirmations would simply be deemed as proof that Jesus is “the evil one”. It doesn’t matter who is in with ABC. What matters is that some kind of viable… Read more »

Jerry Hannon
Guest
Jerry Hannon

NP writes: “Lapin – I note you do not address my point….the ABCs actions in Tanzania (and with J John,TWR and now the covenant) encourage me….what is the basis of your optimism?” I love the way that NP focuses upon events in the past, and ignores events which have subsequently happened. If NP would focus upon what Archbishop Sentamu has said, and then combine that with what the Primates of Ireland, Scotland, Mexico, and Brasil very recently said, and combine that with the known views of most of Australia as well as New Zealand as well as the Primate of… Read more »

Merseymike
Guest
Merseymike

I think what NP fails to appreciate is that his solution will also produce disunity. RW is trying to keep all sides on board – but if the GS insist on the ‘Road to Lambeth’ as the future, where gay people who aren’t self-repressors will be thrown out of church, then I think they are living on another planet.

It appears to me that there is little room for compromise with their hardcore and that they may well go their separate ways – taking NP and his mates with them, no doubt!

NP
Guest
NP

Merseymike…now banging the drum for unity?? THought you wanted a split…or was that last week Anyway, pls do bang the UNITY drum because that is exactly what gave us TWR and Tanzania…..the ABC has shown, by his actions, that he cares for AC unity and this does not mean letting a tiny minority hijack the agenda and split the AC. Jerry…yes, I will focus on the ACTIONS of the ABC and the PRIMATES….you can focus on statements from minor players if you want………following, Tanzania, you know TEC has some deadlines coming up…and depending on those responses, we will see more… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Guest

David was the runt eigth son of Jesse. Size doesn’t matter. Goliath was a huge giant, but a well shot stone was enough to bring him down. Stones that are stumbling blocks do not have to remain dormant on the ground. Sometimes God can choose to move them.

Pluralist
Guest

I agree with his big decisions to date. NP

Like inviting bishops who consecrated Gene Robinson, like inviting the rest of TEC, like excluding AMiA and CANA bishops. Like what he said to the Tme reporters. You agree with his big decisions to date. Or are these are little decisions, to hit the reverse gear for a big decision? Because he is told some will walk, he would rather push others. Crystal ball again.

NP
Guest
NP

Pluralist….I am not too upset about CANA and AMIA bishops not being invited (Carey did not invite similar bishops)

As for invitations to TEC bishops….I am quite happy that the ABC has invited them on the basis that he can withdraw the invitation and much depends on how TEC responds in Sept…..quite happy for them to come if they repent.

You still trying to pretend TWR and Tanzania did not happen???

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

Seems to me you’re trying to pretend that the Windsor Report is something else than a report, and that the machinations at the hotel by the Indian Ocean outside Dar have the support of the ABC, NP.

Pluralist
Guest

The Windsor Report found that TEC achieved two our of three of its requirements, and neutral on the third; the Communique from Tanzania involved two headquarters, some rather nasty dialogue, and an outcome that imposed a deadline that seems not quite to be the deadline some envisaged because of the further importance of Lambeth 2008 for discussions that cannot result in all-communion rules (and indeed there are none now). I retain my point, that to do what you say, NP, requires the reverse gear and an explanation that would not stand up. I further point to the position taking of… Read more »

NP
Guest
NP

I am laughing out loud, Goran…..so, now, without any evidence, you want to claim the ABC does not support his own Communique……

Evidence, Goran….show me where he has distanced himself from it?

I point you to his explicit threat to withdraw Lambeth invitations….which very much looks like he is still looking for a proper response to the Tanzania Communique……not the actions of someone who has rejected it.

“Let your yes be yes and your no be no” – heard of this, Goran??

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“You still trying to pretend TWR and Tanzania did not happen???”

You know, NP, for someone who claims such faith in Scripture, you put an awful lot of faith in politics. Do you honestly believe the Scriptures are to be understood through some sort of political process?

Merseymike
Guest
Merseymike

It still comes down to your wanting an AC which consists only of conservatives, NP.

That cannot happen whilst unity is retained.

Undoubtedly there has to be some sort of split, because conservatives cannot handle the continuation and progress made by liberals and progressives.

Unlike many, I welcome a split, because conservative theology is something which I stronlgy disagree with.