Thinking Anglicans

Nigeria: 2014 Commonwealth Games

Updated Thursday

Changing Attitude Nigeria has published this press release: Nigeria “unfit” to host 2014 Commonwealth Games.

The press release includes a link to the full text of the report presented to the Commonwealth Games Federation, which is titled Abuja’s Bid – Sins of Omission and is available here as a PDF file.

News reports on this matter:
Church Times Delegation lobbies against Nigerian venue for games
Ekklesia Campaigners say Nigeria is unfit for 2014 Commonwealth Games
Glasgow Evening Times Call for Games rivals to be axed from 2014 bid

Glasgow is the city which is competing against Abuja for the 2014 Games.

Reaction against it: Why the Bishop of Chelmsford should now step down from Changing Attitude.

Subsequent development:
BBC Gay Nigerians face Sharia death
Voice of America Nigerian Gays Charged With Sodomy, Could Face Death Penalty

Subsequent Changing Attitude press release: Eighteen gay men arrested and remanded for alleged sodomy.

Update Thursday
Yet another Changing Attitude press release: Members of Changing Attitude Nigeria Jos group among the 18 arrested in Bauchi:

…The Jos leader reports that 5 of the 18 gay men arrested at the party in Bauchi last week are members of the CAN group in Jos. The leader and members of the group had been invited to the party…

Tunde Popoola has commented below:

…If someone knows any Anglican been charged before an Islamic Sharia court for ANY offence, PLEASE let me have such a person’s details and I can assure the church’s legal officer in the concerned diocese will be mandated to ensure such an injustice is prevented.

If my friend Davis is just trying to exploit the unfortunate situation to remain relevant, he should be reminded that he claims CA to be made up of Anglicans which means they are Christians naturally exempted from being charged before Islamic courts.

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Cheryl CloughFord ElmsDavis Mac-IyallaColin CowardTunde Recent comment authors
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Ford Elms
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Ford Elms

“Violence against LGBT people in Nigeria has increased dramatically, in the wake of attacks on gay people by the Anglican Church of Nigeria and attempts by the Nigerian government to introduce sweeping new anti-gay laws.” OOH! can such things possibly be? I mean, +Akinola is only concerned for my salvation, after all. Bring on the demands for proof and the Bible mining for justification of ACN’s behaviour! And why the silence on the fate of the men to be stoned in Kano? Fear of militant Islam on the part of +Akinola, or perhaps pleasure that someone is allowed to do… Read more »

Merseymike
Guest
Merseymike

I don’t think the corrupt Nigerian government should be given this responsibility – for the reasons stated and many others.

The same could also be said about the Beijing olympics.

JCF
Guest
JCF

A wise policy to follow: if you couldn’t hold the Gay Games there, DON’T attend any other kind!

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

I agree with Merseymike.

NP
Guest
NP

Belt up….the same could be said about LA, Atlanta, London, Sydney…….all governments have their sins

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

NP
If you know of legislated abuse of human rights and power in London, let us know. The public transport system doesn’t count.

NP
Guest
NP

well, Erika, some would say our actions in Iraq are “terrorism” even though Parliament voted for the war etc etc but, I agree with you on this one……just pointing out that people are hypocritical re our own purity and selective in who we judge and what we raise as issues.

Merseymike
Guest
Merseymike

Rubbish, NP

Are you seriously trying to compare the regimes of China and Nigeria with our democratic government in the UK?

Face the facts – Nigeria is a corrupt and poorly managed state: characteristics also found in its ‘Anglican’ church.

NP
Guest
NP

– and the Cof E is well-managed and free of corruption, MM?

-you may not know, since you are not an Anglican, as you have said but one example of corruption in the CofE is the lack of discipline we see on vicars who flagrantly ignore the teaching of the church when it does not suit them and encourage others to do so…..maybe we should not be accusing the Nigerians when even the CofE lacks integrity or order

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

NP your comments are increasingly appalling. It has nothing to do with whether anybody accepts the integrity of other Christians or not. It has everything to do with real and physical power to exclude and punish those you don’t agree with. When the Nigerian government, supported by the Nigerian church, stops criminalising a person for being born the way they are, when it stops trying to imprison people for loving, and when it stops threatening 18 people with execution just because they went to a party, I might stop accusing them. If you have an ounce of compassion and sense… Read more »

cryptogram
Guest
cryptogram

“one example of corruption in the CofE is the lack of discipline we see on vicars who flagrantly ignore the teaching of the church when it does not suit them and encourage others to do so” writes NP One assumes he has in mind those who do not use the canonical vesture, those who do not celebrate the Lord’s Supper weekly or publicly recite Morning and Evening Prayer (as required by the Canons of the Church), those who remove furniture from the church, such as the Lord’s Table, except on those rare occasions when it might be needed, those who… Read more »

Merseymike
Guest
Merseymike

That’s not related to corruption, NP. Lack of integrity, perhaps. However, it doesn’t reflect reality – those vicars should be standing iup against the institutional homophobia of the church, personnified by you and your mates. You’ll be much happier with Akinola!

Incidentally, I’m still an Anglican, just not attending church until the split happens.

Jerry Hannon
Guest
Jerry Hannon

NP posted: “Belt up….the same could be said about LA, Atlanta, London, Sydney…….all governments have their sins” By NP’s very strange logic, that would mean that we should treat all violations of the law, e.g., parking in a restricted zone, littering, excessively loud music at midnight, shoplifting, assault, armed robbery, rape, and murder, as if they were one in the same. NP knows that is absurd, just as he/she knows that the human rights violations of Nigeria are not the same as those of most Western and Northern Hemisphere nations. Now, if NP had made his/her comparison solely to the… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Guest

Never saw Jesus throw a stone. Never saw Jesus incite a lynch mob. Never saw Jesus advocate punishment. Jesus welcomed those who came to him, but he never demanded that they come to him. Nor did he demand the destruction of other faiths or denominations in order that his survive. His rebukes of the Pharisees and Sadducees were never an incitement to violence. It was simply a statement that their theology was fundamentally flawed and would eventually implode on itself. Once faced with the evidence of a gracious and merciful God, who deliberately incarnated to prove that God wants not… Read more »

NP
Guest
NP

Erika – I have agreed with you above on Nigeria…..but I am not going to suspend logic to excuse hypocrisy in the CofE

MM – my “mates”, as you say, must be a majority of all the bishops in the CofE and the AC (in 1998 and today)??

Simon Sarmiento
Guest

NP when earlier you accused the CofE of “corruption” are you now changing that to “hypocrisy” or is this an additional, separate accusation?

NP
Guest
NP

Simon…lots of replies from you today! Yes, I see hypocrisy and corruption, sadly.

It is unbelievable that the CofE can state requirements of its clergy but then some bishops turn blind eyes and some cleargy just ignore certain requirements (despite their vows)….this shows hypocrisy and corruption, does it not?

I say this because the CofE has not changed its requirements of clergy, has it?

Hugh of Lincoln
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Hugh of Lincoln

We should be proud that an Anglican organisation is at the forefront of the campaign against human rights abuses in Nigeria.

Not sure I understand the moral relativism of NP. How can alleged non-compliance with Issues amongst CofE clergy sensibly be used in a discussion about state-sanctioned stoning to death on grounds of sexual orientation? Nobody interpretes Leviticus 20 v.13 literally these days.

The report submitted to the Commonwealth Games Federation was compiled by Changing Attitude Nigeria. So I don’t see the connection with “hypocrisy” and “corruption” in CofE!

Perhaps you could throw some light on this NP?

NP
Guest
NP

Hugh – I agree we should be challenging the Nigerian govt and others on human rights……but we must do so with integrity.

Sorry, but I do not think campaigning groups with vicars who ignore certain CofE requirements on them, despite their vows, have much integrity…..

So, it will be quite easy for the valid questions to be dismissed as coming from a group with an agenda (not representative of the CofE) rather than the focus being on the real human rights issues

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“Nobody interpretes Leviticus 20 v.13 literally these days.” Not true. I don’t believe it’s Ahmanson, but someone associated with him, I’m sure someone here knows the name, and yet another extreme conservative emminence grise in the American political involvement in all this, has in the past advocated exactly this. NP’s point, originally, I think, is that things like the Iraq war are bad, and those who participate in them ought not throw stones at others for their human rights abuses. He’s got something of a point, but, such as it is, it is weakened by the fact that the very… Read more »

NP
Guest
NP

Yes Ford….even the ABC did little to oppose the Iraq war

(the old Pope was much clearer and more courageous – he told Tony Blair not to invade Iraq….and he told Rowan Williams some other home truths too…neither of them listened and both are living with the consequences)

Simon Sarmiento
Guest

I am still at a loss to understand where the “corruption” is. Hypocrisy I understand.

NP
Guest
NP

Simon – pls see a dictionary definition of “corruption” below. Money does not have to change hands for there to be corruption. Sometimes lack of courage or blackmail can cause it (including emotional blackmail eg “disagreeing with us is persecuting us” type arguments)

corruption: one dictionary definition= “lack of integrity or honesty”

Cheryl Clough
Guest

Simon

I wish I had kept the links – still (re)learning how internet links work. There was a lot of fallout about how the new vice president of the Christian Association of Nigeria was elected.

Apparently an unexpected meeting was called whilst a Catholic competitor was at an international conference at the Vatican.

Some supporters played their Stalinist style moves too boldly and the Catholics ended up with the Vice Presidency.

The articles I saw at the time demonstrated both corruption and hypocrisy. Was this what you were looking for? In which case, I will search up the links…

Simon Sarmiento
Guest

Cheryl, no I am looking for evidence of “corruption” in the Church of England, as claimed by NP.

(The CAN scandal was covered at http://www.thinkinganglicans.org.uk/archives/002482.html
and earlier items.)

NP’s latest definition of the word suggests that I may be looking in vain. I had assumed he was using the word along the lines of the following definition:

lack of integrity or honesty (especially susceptibility to bribery); use of a position of trust for dishonest gain
http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=corruption

(just the first one to come up on google)

Hugh of Lincoln
Guest
Hugh of Lincoln

Sorry NP, that’s a corruption of the English language! To say that “emotional blackmail” is “corruption” is clutching at straws.

There is no hidden agenda on CA’s part as far as I can see. They are acting in accordance with their own stated objectives, with complete integrity.

Davis MacIyalla reports on CA website that members of CA Nigeria are amongst the 18 men charged. More reason for the Church of Nigeria to exert pressure on the authorities for their release.

NP
Guest
NP

Have another look, Hugh… I did not say that ‘”emotional blackmail” is “corruption”…..did I? Simon got a definition from the web which says corruption can mean “lack of integrity or honesty”…..I see exactly this in the CofE with some leaders turning blind eyes when some clergy ignore clear church requirements for their behaviour….unless you think this shows integrity, I would suggest it is corrupt leadership. I agree that the human rights of all people in Nigeria matter and we should speak up when any of them are abused….as I have said here before, I am not against the UK anti-discrimination… Read more »

Tunde
Guest
Tunde

Hello TA!

If someone knows any Anglican been charged before an Islamic Sharia court for ANY offence, PLEASE let me have such a person’s details and I can assure the church’s legal officer in the concerned diocese will be mandated to ensure such an injustice is prevented.

If my friend Davis is just trying to exploit the unfortunate situation to remain relevant, he should be reminded that he claims CA to be made up of Anglicans which means they are Christians naturally exempted from being charged before Islamic courts.

Colin Coward
Guest

Tunde, the Changing Attitude leader in Jos has reported that 6 Anglican members of the group are among those arrested in Bauchi. Another member who is serving in the National Youth Services Corps in Bauchi reports that when he heard the news of the arrest he went to the police station where the DPO refused to allow him access to the men and even threatened to arrest him if he didn’t leave the station. You would help these young men if you instructed the church’s legal officer in the appropriate diocese to attend the police station, confirm for him or… Read more »

Colin Coward
Guest

The Changing Attitude leader in Jos has just confirmed that 3 of the 5 men arrested are Anglicans, and they were taken before a secular court, not a Sharia court

Merseymike
Guest
Merseymike

So, Tunde, what do you intend to do about this?

And how about accepting some of the responsibility, given the stance of your church and its leadership?

Pluralist
Guest

This situation is one that needs higher oversight and representation (than just via this utterly unreliable and even counterproductive Church) – like monitoring and messaging from various governments towards the behaviour of Nigeria. Meanwhile once again Davis Mac-Iyalla shows bravery in such a situation, and how important it is that he is in constant contact with others outside and gets support.

Cheryl Clough
Guest

NP

I agree with you that corruption includes turning a blind eye to holy requirements. e.g. Jeremiah 17:27 where we are to honor the holy spark in all souls.

http://www.thinkinganglicans.org.uk/archives/002566.html#comments You might find the posting about to go up useful as it expands on how souls can be negligent in their holy requirements.

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“If someone knows any Anglican been charged before an Islamic Sharia court for ANY offence, PLEASE let me have such a person’s details and I can assure the church’s legal officer in the concerned diocese will be mandated to ensure such an injustice is prevented.” Tunde, this rather colossally misses the point. Those 18 men are human beings, creatures of God. It matters not a whit whether they are Anglicans, Muslims, Hindus, or anything else for that matter. As Christians, we are called to love our neighbours, not merely those of the same faith as our own. And Jesus was… Read more »

Tunde
Guest
Tunde

Getting a little confused but not surprised the story is changing. Are there 3, 5 or 6 Anglicans involved? News reports speak of death penalty and Islamic Justice which I am sincerely concerned no Christian should risk that. Colin, during Nigeria’s sharia debates, non-Muslims were assured that they cannot be forced to Islamic courts though they can sue Muslims there. I understand why you feel it is unrealistic to send me details. I only hope you will also understand how unrealistic it is for me to ask a Church representative to go to the Police Station and claim 3, 5,… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“Ford, the strictness of Islam to sexual issues is not peculiar to Nigeria but with recent trends is coming to your community or a community near you very soon.” No question. What, however, does this have to do with the current discussion? I pointed out that your concern for Anglicans being subjected to Sharia Law misses the point that we Christians are called to defend ALL the oppressed, love ALL our neighbours, regardless of their colour, creed, or, indeed, sinfulness. Whether or not Islam is stricter on sexual issues, or is set to influence/take over Western society has nothing to… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

I am appalled by what Akintunde says and the un-Christian attitudes he displays towards his fellow human beings.

All God’s creation. Christ was incarnated for them all without exception.

Colin Coward
Guest

Here at Changing Attitude we always feel sympathy when Canon Tunde becomes confused because we are also often confused by news which arrives from Nigeria. I’m happy to clear up our and his confusion. The number of men arrested in total was 18, of which 13 are Moslems and 5 are Christians, 3 Anglican and 2 from another denomination. The confusion about Christians being tried in an Islamic court under Sharia law is the responsibility of the original report from a Nigerian news agency, which reported that all 18 had been taken to a Sharia court. The report assumed that… Read more »

Tunde
Guest
Tunde

Colin, Thanks for clarifying that no Anglican is facing death sentence on any sexual issue while the Church turns away. Totally different position from earlier raised alarms. Also I appreciate your ‘mistaken’ bit. I always do. Securing bail for people facing a possible life jail or death sentence is something I am not sure about, but of course your ‘news which arrives from Nigeria’ implies the arrested Moslems are on bail. Again, I repeat that I have NEVER lied about Davis. I am yet to acknowledge that ‘I was mistaken’ in any communication about him. I will gladly apologize if… Read more »

Colin Coward
Guest

On 28th December, 2005 Canon Akintunde Popoola published two consecutive disclaimers on the Church of Nigeria web site. The second was headed: PRESS RELEASE – DISCLAIMER- Davis Mac- Iyalla. It said: “The general public is hereby warned of the activities of a person who goes by the name of Davis (David) Mac Iyalla. He claims to be a homosexual member of the Anglican Church but extensive searches revealed that he is NOT registered in any of our over 10,000 local parishes as of the past two years. None of our over 6000 priests recognise him as an active member in… Read more »

Davis Mac-Iyalla
Guest
Davis Mac-Iyalla

The clear truth is that CAN has affected the Church of Nigeria and the society of Nigeria so positively that the only thing for +Akinola and Tunde Popoola to do is keep repeating their lies and false allegations against me. This is the very Tunde who 18 months ago told the world on TA that he will never comment any more about me or CAN. But no, he can’t stop himself from keep coming to post his lies about me on TA because we are the ones who have changed the debate in the Anglican Communion and proved that LGBT… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“When radical Islam lives with you, you will understand better.” It’s rather ethnocentric of you to assume that I do not understand this. If you check back, you’ll find I have said on several occasions that we in the West need to be mindful of the situation Christians face living in close contact with radical Islam. I even suggested that if we are going to do things that might bring violence on the heads of Christians on the other side of the planet, we should be prepared to go where they are and stand in their defence. You suggested that… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Guest

What Tunde has failed to grasp is that taking on the errors in the Anglican Communion has helped our Jewish, Musli, Hinudu and others take on the errors in their communions.

By seeing how misinterpretation to justify personal “security” can distort Anglicanism, other souls can appreciate how their own theology and/or philosophy became hijacked.

We heal the Anglicans not because they are the best, but because their historocal dynamic of broad tent anglicanism versus elistist imposition parallels the lessons Gaia’s diverse occupants need to learn right now.