Thinking Anglicans

columns for the holiday weekend

In The Times Stephen Plant asks How can there can be forgiveness without remorse?

Glynn Cardy writes in the Guardian about the model of the church as a ship in Face to Faith.

The surprise of thatched churches is discussed in the Daily Telegraph by Christopher Howse.

A double dose of Giles Fraser:
The bishops really need to talk from last week’s Church Times and this week When the US Right was not so religious.

And another article from last week’s Church Times: Robin Gill writes about the state of the Anglican Communion: Keeping it in the family.

This week’s Tablet has an interview by Theo Hobson of Metropolitan John D. Zizioulas. Read An eye for the other.

21
Leave a Reply

avatar
3000
21 Comment threads
0 Thread replies
0 Followers
 
Most reacted comment
Hottest comment thread
7 Comment authors
NPFord ElmsPluralistL RobertsCheryl Clough Recent comment authors
  Subscribe  
newest oldest
Notify of
Cheryl Clough
Guest

A nice collection of articles. Plant’s was personally the most fascinating (although there were good points in others and if TA subscribers want to expand…). There was a time where one difficult soul would add insult or injury to my family’s wellbeing at every opportunity. Having failed all the normal dialogues and approaches, I sought advice from my local minister. His reply was “Jesus might have taught us to turn the other cheek, but that doesn’t mean we have to wait for it to be hit. We have the right to walk away.” Part of being welcoming is being gracious,… Read more »

John Richardson
Guest

Giles Fraser, in his article “The Bishops Really Need to Talk”, is an unfortunate victim of what Anthony Weston, in his excellent “A Rulebook for Arguments”, calls the fallacy of the false dilemma: “Reducing the options you consider to just two, often sharply opposed and unfair to the people the dilemma is posed against. For example, ‘America: Love it or Leave it.'” (pp76-77). In Giles’s case, it is this: “those who refuse to turn up at the Lambeth Conference will be those who do not want peace. They want control.” The first statement may contain elements of truth, but there… Read more »

L Roberts
Guest
L Roberts

Why should Nigerians conform, when everything in their theology and culture tells them that homosexuality (probably orientation, as well as practice) is deeply sinful and an abomination? (Robin Gill, Church Times) This is as disgraceful as it is muddled. Does Robin Gill think that human rights, ethics and truth count for so little ? The days for this kind of anglican muddled thinking are surely over. What of those whose lives are wrecked or terminated in Nigeria ? The ‘family’ concept is itself inapposite and unconvincing. Peopel would be well advised to read and widely circulate The Other Way ed.… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“His antithesis, however, that they “want control”, is not only an even greater generalization, but actually undermines his thesis: that people who disagree should sit down and talk reasonably.” First of all, I don’t think it’s all that difficult to tell from their actions that they DO indeed want control. Actions speak louder than words. Second, what do you suggest people who disagree should do if not sit down and talk reasonably? Third, while both sioes may be guilty, it would seem that the charge of “(r)educing the options you consider to just two, often sharply opposed and unfair to… Read more »

John Richardson
Guest

Well now, I hate to point it out, but Ford Elms has committed another fallacy, sometimes known as the ‘tu quoque’ (‘you also’) argument: “it would seem that the charge of ‘(r)educing the options you consider to just two …’ is far more applicable to the conservatives in this mess”. The fallacy is the observation that since someone else does it, it is (more or less) Ok if we do it too. But if it is wrong when someone else does it, then of course it is wrong when we do it (and no less wrong because they are also… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
Guest

Hi John I think you’ve raised some interesting contemplations yet admit to liking Giles’ article and contemplating the imagery and implications. http://www.newmatilda.com/home/articledetail.asp?ArticleID=2433 reviews a publication by Stephen Law from the University of London, who suggests “…that what we are really seeing is a war between two ways of looking at the world. On the one hand are those who prefer a world that bows to Authority (with a capital A), where morality and rules are imposed on individuals by an (often divine) external authority. On the other side are those who remain faithful to the idea that individuals should be… Read more »

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

Stephen Plant looks at forgiveness as a something the victim does for the perpetrator. It requires remorse to be effective.
But that’s only one side of the story. If victims can’t forgive, how can they find peace in their own hearts?
Forgiveness without remorse is still in the victim’s interest.

Pluralist
Guest

Robin Gill’s view of the Communion is similr to the Bishop of Southwark’s ‘spiritual commonwealth’. It means no more Covenant, no more centralising, retaining autonomy, retaining a pathwork of connections and having gatherings. Given the tension and differences, the intention to centralise is a disastrous policy that will only emphasise the differences. Better, when the machine is spinning, not to tighten the nuts making the breakage all the more violent. Keep it loose and free.

it is probaby too late, however.

Cheryl Clough
Guest

Pluralist Some are still in flight response to the change of the world order, they are still fleeing to the paradigms of military power and imposition of authority. When things are well these models can work quite well, but sometimes the thinking brain is not the best thing to lead the body. Sometimes the primal flight response of you are about to be burnt to a cinder or experience violence and therefore it is appropriate to flee. That can be a psychological or spiritual flight, where we recognise that the old way of doing things is simply going to continue… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“The fallacy is the observation that since someone else does it, it is (more or less) Ok if we do it too.” No, John, my purpose in making such statements is to point out the hypocrisy of accusing one’s opponents of committing some great sin when one is at least as guilty one’sself. I have made this kind of statement repeatedly on this site, and it still fascinates me how consevos seem unable to recognize their own hypocrisy (I’m not claiming there ISN’T hypocrisy on the left, BTW) but instead take my statement as an attempt to justify a certain… Read more »

NP
Guest
NP

Ford….you still think you make some great, powerful point when you point out that all sides are sinners / hypocrites etc. You know the saying about glass houses and stones is not from the bible, I am sure…. Some misquote “do not judge” to justify tolerating false teachers and sin……but if you read 1 Cor 5:12 and many other verses, the bible does not say “if you are perfect, you are qualified to make judgments” – does it? No, it talks about the necessity of making judgments in the church….yes, it is our duty to judge in certain circumstances, according… Read more »

L Roberts
Guest
L Roberts

Can there be remorse without forgiveness ?

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“if you are perfect” So you’re perfect now? The Resurrection has been anticipated for you, as for the Virgin, and you, unlike the rest of Creation, are no longer groaning in travail awaiting the perfection that is to come, but have actually achieved theosis? Really? It takes orthodox(the real ones) monks years of asceticism to achieve this, and only a few ever do, yet you, in the middle of London in your workaday world, have been granted this gift! I am in awe. As to the presenting issue, you really don’t know what is going on, you just repeat the… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

Oh, and NP, I know lots of people who deny their hypocrisy. Some of us acknowledge it in ourselves. None of us are ever fully aware of the extent of it. Most of us feel that it is a failing in us, I would think. You are the only person I have known who actually defends his right to be a hypocrite! Even funnier is the way you use Scripture to justify it.

Pluralist
Guest

I wonder, when these conservative evangelicals walk off, and assuming they have their own organisations, and there is a split, whether they will still busy their time talking about the tolerant in these ever rpessured negative tones. I hope they get on with whatever focus they have within their own walls. Meanwhile I’ll take my cue from the prophet Jesus, judge not lest you be judged, rather than Paul trying to organise a Church who might have said this or that. Nor will I take my stance from bibliolatry.

NP
Guest
NP

Ford -you are sounding increasingly like the mad contributors round here! I expect serious points from you. I respect what you say even if we disagree. I did not claim to be perfect….did I? If you think I did, let me assure you that I am not and do not claim to be. I was making the point that 1 Cor 5:12 does not limit people who are perfect from making judgments in the church….addressing your repeated point that sinners are judging other sinners, showing you that St Paul taught that we sinners would have to make such judgments within… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

Pluralist, Puritanical movements all lead to further and further splitting as one group’s “orthodoxy” becomes insufficiently ‘orthodox’ for others. It’ll start with the women. Then it’ll be the turn of the Anglo-catholics. They might make common cause now, but when they’ve dealt with the fags and the uppity women, they’ll get down to the real meat. I can’t imagine someone who is opposed to the baptism of infants, for instance, being too tolerant of the conservative Anglo-catholics who have Benediction every Sunday after Evensong. I suspect they’ll all end up like the mythical monk on Mount Athos whose Orthodoxy was… Read more »

Pluralist
Guest

I agree Ford. Certainty over one matter of principle soon finds a disagreement over another matter of principle. I think the only time a spliting off did not have this effect was with the Presbyterian Puritans in 1662 – when they had to assent and consent to the Book of Common Prayer, and so were forced to leave. The reason they did not split was because, despite the Puritanism, they kept a parish mentality, and secondly their belief in the Bible alone, without creeds, meant they were left without other defence, and being congregationalist in practice (due to repression) led… Read more »

NP
Guest
NP

Ford – you ignore my true and common-sense response to you but I would like to add this with regard to the “presenting issue” point – maybe we can take a lead from the Primates of the AC as to what are the presenting issues? Pls see what they wrote down and ALL agreed to….

http://ugleyvicar.blogspot.com/2007/08/repeat-after-me-theyre-not-listening.html

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

Presenting issue seems to be your new buzz word. The thing is that your understanding of the “presenting issue” is a carefully crafted myth. No, all those statements you mention are not fictions. TEC may be gone after September, and maybe us with them. None of that changes the fact that this is most decidedly NOT about what you think it’s about, never was, never will be. All it means is that certain people have been very effective in pushing their political agenda, largely because they have framed it so as to look like the Apocaplypse is upon us, and… Read more »

NP
Guest
NP

ok Ford, so: 1) how did this “puritan” conspiracy get TEC to create this crisis with VGR? 2) are we in the AC supposed to accept VGR as a bishop? (thereby ignoring the interpretation of the bible common in most of the church today, found in Lambeth 1.10, reaffirmed in TWR) Very clever “puritans” in your conspiracy theory, Ford! Maybe there is a mole in TEC, working for the “puritans”! Maybe it is VGR! Maybe he is an alcoholic being manipulated by the “puritans” to split the AC! Wow….you should write the story…you might be the new Dan Brown with… Read more »