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New Orleans: Monday morning

In the Guardian Stephen Bates writes US bishops try to find compromise on gay clergy.

…American conservative bishops complained that the archbishop refused to see them, or return their calls during his stay. A handful have now left the meeting and are planning to re-gather in Pittsburgh this week to discuss strategy, which is likely to include seeking oversight from an African province. Their leader, Bishop Bob Duncan of Pittsburgh, predicted that about five of the US church’s 112 dioceses would seek to affiliate outside the US…

For the Associated Press Rachel Zoll writes Analysis: Anglicans Already Breaking Up.

In the New Orleans Times-Picayune Kate Moran has Bishop emphasizes inclusiveness.

From Episcopal News Service there are several more reports:
Shawls will enfold bishops in Episcopal Church’s prayers
Bishops asked to join ‘We the People’ leadership
Episcopal Communicators help rebuild lives in Gulf Coast recovery efforts
Rio Grande bishop announces intention to resign

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NP
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NP

“US bishops try to find compromise…..”

I wish they would just say what they believe to be right rather than just looking for compromise (out of fear that the club might shrink)!

I find VGR and Spong more honest than the political fudgemakers like the ABC – at least they say what they believe and stand by their positions.

“Let your yes be yes and your no be no” – good advice from someone who did know, speak and love the truth.

Steven
Guest
Steven

Well, if preliminary news is any indicator, the ABC pulled a “Chamberlain” and the AC is finished. Of course, it was finished in its current form anyhow. But, the ABC’s chance to moderate a measured and gradual transition to a more structured form that might have continued to serve as a relatively unified voice and organization for world-wide Anglicanism appears to have been lost. This will be good news to some and bad news to others. For Rowan Williams, unless he can pull some mighty fat rabbits out of his pointy hat in the months ahead, it means that he… Read more »

Pluralist
Guest

it seems that Jeffrey Steenson’s resignation is completely honourable.

Leonardo Ricardo
Guest
Leonardo Ricardo

Ah yes, swim the Tiber…afterall, over on that side of the divide most everyone, including the Pope, must pretend “things are different” than they really are or they would lose up to half of their clergy (both on the ground and in upper secret chambers)…seems like a really smart move for +Steenson to make (or anyone else who can’t cope with finding REAL solutions to fear, injustice and degerative scriptural/spiritual fantasy).

NP
Guest
NP

Steven says that the AC “will doubtless be smaller and of less import in the world at large” I am afraid that all of us probably make the mistake of thinking that Anglicanism is much more important than it is! It is not very important in England today and is even less important in the US and the rest of the world…. representing at best 1% of the global population (even if we pretend the CofE contains 26m people – which it does not, divide by 10 and you are closer but still above real CofE membership!) Therefore, 99% of… Read more »

Cynthia
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Cynthia

“It seems that Jeffrey Steenson’s resignation is completely honourable.”

Yes. From what he wrote, he went by the book. He writes graciously about PB Jefferts Schori and is looking to make his leaving graceful for his diocese. I note that although he says TEC has gone places where he cannot follow, he does not claim to have been ‘driven’ or ‘purified’ out of it.

I wish others would follow his example and leave gracefully.

I am sorry to lose a man of such integrity [although obviously not of Integrity! – sorry – can’t resist silly jokes].

Slope
Guest
Slope

Wow–NP is really AP columnist Rachel Zoll!

Congratulations! Quote from Radner? Check. Kendall Harmon? Check.

BobinSwPA
Guest
BobinSwPA

I belong the TEC because I enjoy the style of worship and the community I belong to is very special. I don’t go to church to be saved or to get a behavior modification/Token Economy ticket into heaven. The ABC I feel was pushed into a corner. He had a choice, caring for all people or just those who belong to a certain population. He choose all baptized. Some might think of him as the chap who let the AC fall apart and some might remember him as the man who said, all people are God’s children and deserve respect… Read more »

Davis d'Ambly
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Davis d'Ambly

Bishop Steenson is indeed a very honorable man and I am not surprised by this news, especially by the gracious way he has spoken.

Malcolm+
Guest
Malcolm+

Sorry, Steven, but I just cannot countenance the blatant dishonesty of your closing sentence. The only “purging” that has been attempted in all of this has been by “conservatives.” Note that I have put quotation marks around conservatives, because I refuse to apply that honorable descriptor to those who are motivated by a desire for schism, destruction and rage. By contrast, we have seen integrity and decency from real conservatives like Henderson of Upper South Carolina, Howe of Central Florida and even Steenson of Rio Grande. I may agree with these three on practically nothing, but I respect them for… Read more »

Lapinbizarre
Guest
Lapinbizarre

Don’t be silly, Slope – Rachel Zoll writes in sentences!

Pluralist
Guest

I think that the Archbishop did the right thing, and that was next to nothing. He gave a ‘lecture’ on being a bishop, though it was criticised for not including the role of bringing in the marginalised. He listened a lot, and then went elsewhere. The House of Bishops should so take this cue, to make some provision for those in some sort of doctrinal difficulty, and then present itself for inclusion in the Lambeth Conference for what anyone wants to talk about. Those others can then exclude it or stay away, if this is what they want to do.… Read more »

Cheryl Va. Clough
Guest

The “We the People” article is inspiring. I always think of a calendar year running from December 2004 to November 2005. The bump in unnatural disasters and their consequences is well outside the bell curve of normality. What I like about Dr Gus Newport is that he shows a Fear of God. He acknowledges the extent of the devastation caused by the hurricanes that year and New Orleans looked/s worst than a war zone; similar to SE Asia after the tsunami or Pakistan after the quake. He also sees that the rebuilding of such cities and communities is a beacon… Read more »

kieran crichton
Guest
kieran crichton

Steven wrote: “For Rowan Williams, unless he can pull some mighty fat rabbits out of his pointy hat in the months ahead, it means that he will be remembered as the last ABC to head a real world-wide Anglican Communion as well as the one on whose “watch” the whole thing fell apart. What will be left of the AC under the ABC after the dust settles is subject to dispute, but it will doubtless be smaller and of less import in the world at large. Meanwhile, in the US, the decline of TEC will accelerate as it continues to… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

Steven wrote: “For Rowan Williams, unless he can pull some mighty fat rabbits out of his pointy hat in the months ahead, it means that he will be remembered as the last ABC to head a real world-wide Anglican Communion as well as the one on whose “watch” the whole thing fell apart.” It fell apart under +Carey. Lambeth 1998. and further: “Meanwhile, in the US, the decline of TEC will accelerate as it continues to “purify” itself of conservatives.” It seems to me that ony those that think they are “pure” can do anything of the sort. See NP’s… Read more »

Steven
Guest
Steven

NP: Agreed. Malcolm+: Hmmm. Well, let’s face facts shall we. In the realm of ideas, when you purge an organization of certain ideas/ideals, you necessarily purge and/or marginalize those who follow and believe in those ideas and ideals. When you force diocese and parrishes to accept female priests, you are necessarily marginalizing and/or forcing out those who don’t believe in this innovation. The same is true for other innovations, including active homosexual priests and blessing gay marriages. The choice is to sit quietly and abandon your principles or leave. And, liberals certainly scream the same thing or something similar when… Read more »

Ford Elms
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Ford Elms

“The choice is to sit quietly and abandon your principles or leave.” I disagree. There is another choice, to accept that the majority doesn’t agree with you. You can still choose to leave, or stay with the disagreeing majority. None of us have to turn this disagreement into some kind of marginalizing and oppression of “us” by “them”, and that goes for both sides. There have been continued accusations of repression of the conservatives by some liberal cabal in TEC, but in each case I have read about, the parish/group in question bears some culpability. Lawful discipline isn’t necessarily repression.… Read more »

Malcolm+
Guest
Malcolm+

Steven, I can’t believe that you could possibly expect that to be taken seriously. The fact that Canada elected a Conservative government does not, of itself, mean that I am oppressed simply because Prime Minister Harper and I do not see eye to eye. The fact that my present bishop is much closer to your views on sexuality than mine does not mean that I am oppressed – and it certainly doesn’t mean that I am being forced out of the Church in this diocese. If you believe that the simple fact that some (apparently substantial) number of folk disagree… Read more »

Steven
Guest
Steven

Malcolm, I don’t recall ever saying that I was oppressed. And, it does no good to introduce absurdities into the conversation–I have not compared myself to Rwandan refugees, or 9-11 widows. The implication is not only insulting, it is a strawman argument that does nothing to advance your case. In fact, I am no more oppressed than TEC would be by toeing the line on 1.10, the Winsor Report, and etc. TEC could, equally, choose to do what it’s told and accept the voice and will of the majority in the AC. The trouble is, the medicine liberals prescribe for… Read more »

Steven
Guest
Steven

Ford: There is no reason that Luther could not have chosen to have just “gone along” with the majority. The same is true in terms of every other issue that has caused a break in the Church. Yet, people still choose to stand on principle. Liberals accuse conservatives of not being willing to “go along” with the majority in TEC, while simultaneously providing an example of exactly the opposite by not being willing to “go along” with the majority in the AC. Consequently, I cannot help but view arguments of this type with a jaundiced eye. In terms of money,… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“every other issue that has caused a break in the Church.” Indeed. And schism being a Very Bad Thing, perhaps their principled stance was the wrong one. It certainly hasn’t furthered the spread of the Gospel. It HAS proven out inability to live according to the precepts we try to force on everyone else. “not being willing to “go along” with the majority in the AC.” How is +Jensen, with his heterodox views on sacraments, for instance, “going along” with the majority? How are we in Canada being forced to accept it? Just because the current issue so occupies our… Read more »

Steven
Guest
Steven

Ford: Re: Schism is bad. Yes, this means that liberals need to go along with the majority in the AC. Re: Jensen. Yes, Jensen is wrong IMO and needs to go along with the majority in the AC. As you should know, conservatives are not monolithic on most issues, including Jensen’s issues. They are united, by and large, on the homosexual issue. Re: Money. Yes, money talks. However, I don’t believe most people are motivated to go beyond what they would ordinarily want to say/do. I’m also not sure that Ahmanson has anything to say that is beyond the bounds… Read more »

Lapinbizarre
Guest
Lapinbizarre

Time – YET AGAIN – to bookmark Jim Naughton’s “Following the Money”, Steven – an excellently researched and referenced study of how American Right Wing cash – much of it from sources that have no affiliation with the Episcopal Church – has bankrolled the attack on TEC. On the Amahnson/Rushdoony connection, Naughton comments “Ahmanson was a disciple of the Rev. Rousas John Rushdoony, the father of Christian Reconstructionism. Rushdoony died in 2001 with the Ahmansons at his bedside. He advocated basing the American legal system on biblical laws, including stoning adulterers and homosexuals.” I will leave you to clarify whether… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“They are united, by and large, on the homosexual issue.” So one’s position on homosexuality is more important than one’s position on, say, the sacraments? I can’t agree that one is not a heretic as long as one doesn’t like gay people. “And, what about liberal “bankrollers” like Soros? “ My knowledge on that is quite limited, so please tell me more. A link or two is probably all there’s room for, I guess. I do want to know more about what I have always assumed was there. “Some folks may still be influenced by his (Rushdoony’s) ideas I suppose.”… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

I quickly Googled Soros, and found his foundation supports:

“the creation of open, democratic societies based upon the rule of law, market economies, transparent and accountable governance, freedom of the press, and respect for human rights”

I assume George Soros is who we are talking about. Yeah, that sounds like evil incarnate! Of course, it is an official statement, and those from IRD would sound very much the same.

Malcolm+
Guest
Malcolm+

The entire dubious and dishonest case for international interventions has been based on a handful of dishonest schismatics claiming against all reality that they are being “oppressed” in the Episcopal Church because of their supposedly “conservative” position. Forgive me for presuming that your language about “purgE” wasn’t just more of the same. The claim that conservatives are being driven out of the Episcopal Church is, always was and always will be a complete and utter lie. Some conservatives have felt that they must leave. Most of them have behaved with integrity and have either left with dignity or have struggled… Read more »

Steven
Guest
Steven

Hi Ford: Soros was thrown out merely as an example of a left-wing money man. Like Ahmanson, he uses his money to help fund the things that interest him (like defeating Bush and electing democrats), and like Ahmanson, he has foundation(s) that carry on a variety of less controversial charitable work. (My familiarity with both men comes from jumping over to Wikipedia for a few minutes and the chance references and articles I have read over the years). The Wikipedia article seems to reflect the fact that Ahmanson’s Reconstructionist/Rushdoony phase is fading if not left behind. And, having been at… Read more »

Steven
Guest
Steven

Ford: I tried to restrict my last post to the moneyman issue. So, this one will try to touch on other matters you have raised. If you read my recent dialog with NP, this will seem repetitive, but here goes–Robinson and similar innovations fail under all three headings: Not Christian, Not Catholic, Not Anglican; whereas Jensen’s innovations only fail under the last two mentioned. Consequently, the Robinson innovation is more egregious and problematic. This doesn’t mean that Jensen won’t have to be dealt with at some time or another. I hope sooner rather than later, but it will probably have… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

Steven, I hope I am misunderstanding, but are you saying that Robinson and his supporters aren’t Christians? Or just that the idea that he can be a bishop is unChristian? As to the “liberal innovations” you list, no-one “abandoned” Biblical authority. The Anglican Church has never placed all authority in Scripture, it is the Evangelicals who are innovating on this point. Also, the Anglican formularies, the Creeds, the Articles, the C/L Quadrilateral. To me it seems far more the GS who have abandoned those. And the Articles are only binding in England and were never official doctrinal statements, but an… Read more »

Steven
Guest
Steven

Ford: Re: Robinson et al. I cannot judge their Christianity, but I can say that they are supporting an un-Christian cause (as many Christians have before and since). Re: Scriptural authority. Anglicanism never adopted sola scriptura, though it has always fought against a puritan wing that wanted this standard. This doesn’t mean that Scripture is not authoritative in Anglicanism–quite the opposite. However, liberals have constantly and consistently fought against treating Scripture as authoritative. Too problematic in terms of cultural syncretism I suppose. Re: 39 Articles. The 39 Articles have been demoted in importance over the years by liberals–witness their demotion… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

Steven, Liberals do not deny the authority of Scripture. The Articles never had the authority outside of England that they had in that country, and even there it wasn’t as absolute as you might think. Besides, it isn’t only “liberals” who do not conside them authoritative. Even NP has no compunction about ignoring the ones he doesn’t like. As to usury, no disrespect to my Jewish cousins, but I’m not Jewish. Their religion might allow it in certain circumstances, ours did not for many centuries. Crysostom, Leo, and numerous others spoke against it, as did many early Anglican divines. It… Read more »