THINKING ANGLICANS

Reform reacts to New Orleans

According to Jonathan Wynne-Jones in the Sunday Telegraph:

Conservative Christians will throw down the gauntlet to the Archbishop of Canterbury this week by demanding that he openly disowns the American church over gay bishops.

A letter to be sent to Dr Rowan Williams tomorrow by Reform, an evangelical group representing 1,000 parishes, urges him to make it clear that he opposes the American position

The group warns that his failure to do so would split the Church of England from “top to bottom” and lead to a further demand that the US church is barred from the Lambeth Council, the annual gathering of bishops…

Read the whole article, Ultimatum on Anglican church gays.

Read a statement from Reform at Anglican Mainstream Response from Reform to New Orleans Statement by TEC Bishops.

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Merseymike
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Merseymike

As Rod Thomas said, the split is ‘inevitable’ given that Reform and the other conservative groups prefer to follow Akinola and the US schismatics.

Good riddance.

cryptogram
Guest
cryptogram

Reform represents 1000 parishes? In their dreams! That is more than 20 parishes in every English diocese – if there are 10 in this pretty average diocese I’d be very surprised.

In fact, I’d be surprised if they represent many more individuals.

John Richardson
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John Richardson

I have just spoken to Rod Thomas of Reform. He has stated ‘categorically’ that the letter to the Archbishop of Canterbury does NOT raise the issues alleged in the Telegraph article, but is concerned with seeking clarification about the Archbishop’s involvement with the Communion service for the ‘Consultation Group’. That is my current understanding.

badman
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badman

“The group warns that his failure to do so would split the Church of England from “top to bottom” and…..”

And, and, and…… and what?

“…and lead to a further demand…”

Oh.

Leonardo Ricardo
Guest
Leonardo Ricardo

Hasta la vista! When will overblown puritan folks figure out “threatening” isn’t acceptable behavior in or outside of Church? It’s NOT worked for Centuries, just ask Bush and the RC’s!

drdanfee
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drdanfee

Is it not too clever by far, for conservative Anglican believers like Reform and AMainstream, to so vigorously define away any possible basis for common ground or even common discussion or certainly not common empirical peer journals inquiry? – so closed and pat are their preferred frames for reading scripture and such – then follow all that effort up by claiming that since no common ground exists, thanks to their own stubborn unwillingness to be clear about their secret hermeneutics – and their clear unwillingness to play well with others? – that now we must accept their ultimate, My Way… Read more »

D. C.
Guest

Merseymike, haven’t seen you at T19 recently – did you swear off or something?

Charlotte
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Charlotte

This ultimatum from Reform has the same curious logical structure as all the others: “(You must) split the Communion — or else I will split the Communion!” The response of the Establishment [and yes, the other side is the Establishment, and in America as well] has also always been the same: “I won’t split the Communion. So you must split the Communion.” To which the ultras reply: “um ah hum hum not ready just yet…” There’s a reason the script runs this way. It’s in the rulebook that the side that splits the Communion damages mainly its own position. Therefore,… Read more »

John Richardson
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John Richardson

I’ve just had an e-mail from Rod Thomas, further to my earlier conversation with him, again stating that no such ultimatum containing the content reported in the Telegraph has gone in any letter from Reform to Archbishop Rowan Williams.

Perry Butler
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Perry Butler

I have come to the conclusion that many of the present ideological problems besetting the Anglican Communion are due to the e mail!!!

Pete Broadbent
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Pete Broadbent

Having recently been in dialogue with members of Reform on this subject, I am clear that Jonathan Wynne-Jones’ report is inaccurate in several respects. I would be surprised if they had either produced an ultimatum, or had suggested the use of foreign archbishops, at this stage. We’re not helped by the Press trying to up the ante.

And I was unaware that the American Church had anything to do with the London Borough of Lambeth… I think JW-J means “Lambeth Conference”, not “Lambeth Council”!

Lapinbizarre
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Lapinbizarre

Ain’t that the truth, Perry Butler!

NP
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NP

I love the way people ignore Rev Richardson twice stating the the press report is wrong…..because too many here just want to bash “conservatives” regardless of whether the report is right or not (just like with +Isaac, the Nigerian bishop that so many here wished had made horrible homophobic comments …. and even when it turned out he had not, some here still wanted to whine about what he had not said!) Anyway, please wait and see what actually happens rather than relying on press reports ……. many important meetings are yet to happen. We have not heard from the… Read more »

Simon Sarmiento
Guest

NP
You do realise surely that people who post here often cannot see the preceding comments that have not yet been approved.
As it happens, I approved both John Richardson’s comments at the same time, thus ensuring that anybody who had posted in the intervening time period had seen neither of them…
Or were you attacking the Bishop of Willesden?

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

“… Reform, an evangelical group representing 1,000 parishes…”

Haven’t we heard this claim before?

How many did they actually manage to gather at the Surbiton irregular ordinations?

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

“We’re not helped by the Press trying to up the ante.”

“… rather than relying on press reports”

Scape-goating the Scapegoat, he?

Robert Ian Williams
Guest
Robert Ian Williams

Just imagine…Bishop Rod Thomas consecrated in Nigeria and Bishop Sugden consecrated in Rwanda or Sydney….that will give the C of E bishops a run for their money……

Neil
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Neil

Indeed we will have to see how accurate these reports turn out to be in the future. However, the schismatic acts of Richard Coekin and Co Mission are already a matter of record, and an indication of intent from his sectarian wing of Bishopsgate Christianity. For which he was not disciplined within the Diocese of London as the ordinations took place in Southwark – though he remains on notice with the ABC. What is becoming clear though, and should alarm +Broadbent is that even within mainstream and even old fashioned middle of the road trad. evangelicalism the mood music seems… Read more »

L Roberts
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L Roberts

Carry on bullying. I don’t think any Archbishops of C in modern times has had to put up wityh such undermining, bullying and hectoring as has Archbishop Williams. They even staryed hounding him about a pagan cult he was part of before many days had passed, after the Downing Street announce,ment. It turned out to be The Gorsedd. The premier Welsh cultural insitution par excellence–and profoundly Christian since its inception to the present day. Such terrible ignorance of Wales and her culture. Reform –whatever its size may be, is continuing to behave disgracefully. I find it hard to believe such… Read more »

Merseymike
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Merseymike

But, NP, you will no doubt recall RW’s call for compromise. That means from both sides. There have been compromises from the US church, but the conservatives will haver to compromise as well. That means they will have to accept that they will not get all they want either.

Sounds like you want compromise from only one side.

Pluralist
Guest

There are stages to go before such an ultimatum anyway, and one of them must be for them to declare that the Archbishop of Canterbury (and the Archbishop of York) is in league with the leadership of TEC, by his actions and writings. Only then can they make the justification to start sending in their own foreign appointed bishops, introduce their own Covenant, get allegiances from congregations, recruit from the 2(+5) theological colleges. The plan is clearly underway, it just needs to get to the point where the declarations can be made. It could even be as far off as… Read more »

Hugh of Lincoln
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Hugh of Lincoln

This reporter accurately warned us of the “rule book of beliefs” to be imposed on the Church by the Covenant earlier in the summer, and was the one to out Jeffrey John. He seems to be well connected, so it would be a surprise if his report turns out to be inaccurate.

Cheryl Va. Clough
Guest

For those who are outside the communion, we do no less that what Paul did Corinthians 2:7-12 “Was it a sin for me to… elevate you by preaching the gospel of God to you free of charge? I robbed other churches by receiving support from them so as to serve you… I have kept myself from being a burden to you in any way, and will continue to do so. As surely as the truth of Christ is in me, nobody in the regions… will stop this boasting of mine. Why? Because I do not love you? God knows I… Read more »

John Bassett
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John Bassett

Well, maybe some of you over the UK could explain to me how Reform can split the church. I mean, it’s established, right? So, do they sue the Crown to get their property? And don’t they all get paid by the diocese anyhow? So what happens to the paycheck when they “leave”?

Curious American minds are trying to figure this one out.

NP
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NP

Simon – if I can see the comments, I guess others can see them? Merseymike – the gospel is not about compromise….we would have no need of the cross if God was into compromising. He does not call us to compromise even if the ABC desires it in order to try and keep the club together, even based on less than trustwortyhy TEC HOB statements. Neil – there you go again….trying to pretend that it is a rabid minority which will not accept TEC(USA)’s innovations. If you were right, we would never have had Dromantine, TWR, Tanzania or the ABC… Read more »

NP
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NP

Cheryl – you think if St Paul was here, he would be backing VGR/TEC and saying ignore certain scriptures (which he wrote, under the inspiration of the Spirit)????

Merseymike
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Merseymike

But, NP, the ABC made it clear that there would have to be compromise.

You seem to be saying: no, we won’t compromise.

Therefore, there will be a split, as the activity in the US suggests.

Merseymike
Guest
Merseymike

NP: if St. Paul was here, he would be an entirely different person – just as the bible needs to be looked at with regard to its human authorship, cultural embeddedness and epistemological limitations.
He would remain human, though, with opinions, just like in Biblical times. he wrote down his opinions, inspired by his faith (not anything supernatural) to do so.

It is JUST A BOOK. Please repeat 1000 times a day and you might finally get it.

Pat O'Neill
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Pat O'Neill

“you think if St Paul was here, he would be backing VGR/TEC and saying ignore certain scriptures (which he wrote, under the inspiration of the Spirit)????”

I think Paul was smart enough to read the scientific literature and realize that his understanding of God’s plan was flawed….

dodgyvicar
Guest
dodgyvicar

Leaving the C of E – a simple guide for those who wish to do so. Pension: existing pension rights will still be held for those parish priests who are inhibited from their livings or who resign them. (1/37th of 2/3rds of final salary from age 65 for service before 2007; 1/40th of 2/3rds of final salary for service after 2007). Lump sum: a proportion of the lump sum will still be payable (at age 65) irrespective of how many years service is put in, but proportionate to it. Stipends: If they resign from their livings then stipend will cease… Read more »

Pluralist
Guest

I must say, TEC’s apparent double speak has had some impact, because NP revised his position and seems to be revising it again. Only days ago TEC had done what the Archbishop of Canterbury was, previously, going to be forced to do, and now it seems they haven’t. So presumably now NP expects the Archbishop of Canterbury to do what he was going to do, according to him, but so far has not.

This is what happens when you keep rattling off the same old mantras.

Christopher Shell
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Christopher Shell

Compromise reminds me of firemen’s strikes and the like. Make a ridiculous pay demand (even for a brave fireman) and you will ensure that a reasonable compromise will be perceived to be halfway between your demand and the existing situation. The higher your ridiculous demand, teh higher the so-called compromise will be. This is understood by those plotting how high their ridiculous demand should be.

Martin Reynolds
Guest

I believe that Reform and the others began at the point you say is yet to come Adrian.

These people declared Rowan a “false teacher” BEFORE his enthronement.

The interesting thing is to see this group develop from “fringe fanatics” to “Anglican Mainstream” over the last five years!

L Roberts
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L Roberts

Your assesssment of the situation in England is right. They can make noises and smells (but no bells!)

‘Well, maybe some of you over the UK could explain to me how Reform can split the church. I mean, it’s established, right? So, do they sue the Crown to get their property? And don’t they all get paid by the diocese anyhow? So what happens to the paycheck when they “leave”?

Curious American minds are trying to figure this one out.’

Posted by: John Bassett on Monday, 1 October 2007 at 2:06am BST

Steven
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Steven

Pluralist: I rattle off some of the “same old mantras”–like the creeds–all the time. That don’t make me wrong. And, consequently, NP isn’t wrong to repeat his basic conclusions on the underlying issues. Repetition doesn’t prove him right, of course, but it is definitely no evidence or error. However, when it comes to TEC and the ABC . . . hmm. Oh well, I can only conclude that NP isn’t skeptical enough (or maybe cynical enough) by far when it comes to TEC and the ABC. But, he is definitely learning when it comes to TEC, which has made “spin”… Read more »

NP
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NP

Pat – key difference between you and most Anglicans is that we do not think we just have Paul’s opinions on things….. “inspired scriptures” is quite a “mainstream” Anglican view. Pluralist…..you enjoy yourself but I said the ABC would push TEC HOB to compromise (as he did the Canadians). Now we have to wait for responses (from the Primates Council too, since they asked the questions of TEC) before we see what happens. What the ABC finally does……is some way away, Pluralist. Don’t get too excited by TEC doublespeak….it does not fool anybody who does not want to be fooled!… Read more »

Pluralist
Guest

That’s right, Martin, but there was a period when he was saying, “I am an Archbishop and this is what I teach”, such as the backing down by Jeffrey John, and of course this has given others to look at the detailed orthodoxy of Rowan Williams’ writing and declare him to be orthodox after all. Then he gave a series of interviews and made statements culminating in his visit to TEC’s House of Bishops in which basically he is semi-detached and letting whatever happens happen. It may be that (listening to his interview snippets on the otherwise dreadful BBC4 programme,… Read more »

Merseymike
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Merseymike

But the split is going to be a handful of extreme evangelical provinces breaking away with extreme conservative evangelicals in America.

What will remain will be far happier and more coherent. And that will be more likely to be able to live with difference.

Malcolm+
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Malcolm+

“[If] Chris Sugden is appointed the CANA bishop of Mornington Crescent,” I suspect he won’t be invited down the road to Lambeth.

Robert Ian Williams
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Robert Ian Williams

I’ve actually talked and corresponded with the Reform Chairman, and he is a kind and gentle person of integrity, with a deep love of our Lord. We must not demonise Reform, but love them.

Although they leave out the issue of divorce and re-marriage in their covenant…they are genuinely sincere in wanting to serve God and seek the salvation of lost souls.

Pat O'Neill
Guest
Pat O'Neill

“Pat – key difference between you and most Anglicans is that we do not think we just have Paul’s opinions on things….. “inspired scriptures” is quite a “mainstream” Anglican view.”

Never said he wasn’t Spirit-inspired, NP. But inspiration is countered by human knowledge and human understanding…Paul’s knowledge and understanding necessarily limited by his being a man of the First C., not the 21st.

Just as the authors of the Old Testament were limited to their pre-Copernican understanding of cosmology when they wrote that Joshua made the sun stand still in the sky.

Or do you somehow believe that’s what really happened?

Graham Kings
Guest

I have spoken to Jonathan Wynne-Jones and so has Bishop Pete Broadbent. Jonathan Wynne-Jones has confirmed to me, categorically, that the quotation at the end of his article attributed to Rod Thomas, Chairman-Elect of Reform, was definitely said by Rod Thomas to him. If you read John Richardson’s comment near the top of this thread (1.22pm) and later (5.28pm), it is worth noting that he is very careful in his use of language. He refers to the letter sent to the Archbishop of Canterbury and not to the interview that Rod Thomas gave to Jonathan Wynne-Jones. It is the direct… Read more »

Brett Gray
Guest
Brett Gray

Graham Kings of Fulcrum has been in contact with Johnatahn Wynne-Jones who has reiterated the veracity of the article and especially of the final quote by Rod Thomas about the inevitability of a coming split. His post on the Fulcrum Forum makes for interesting reading, and cuts right to the heart of the issue of whether or not Reform is making plans for UDI.

http://www.fulcrum-anglican.org.uk/forum/thread.cfm?thread=4819

It seems that, whatever the details of letters to ++Rowan and appeals to foreign primates, there is a feeling in the Reform camp that separation will come and plans must be made.

Pluralist
Guest

Well there is a difference between rattling off old mantras and not paying attention. My view of the TEC position from the moment given is that it extended the position they already had. NP changed his view, and now has changed it again back to the rattle. But that rattle depends on the Archbishop of Canterbury doing the change that NP expects. No evidence of that at all, rather the reverse: well, NP could be right, but it would be a huge turnaround. That’s all.

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

“Pat – key difference between you and most Anglicans is that we do not think we just have Paul’s opinions on things….. “inspired scriptures” is quite a “mainstream” Anglican view.” (Now, read this carefully, NP!) So you think, NP, and we believe that Paul was a very Godly man, a Rabbi by training, and that he was indeed inspired – take his The Body of Christ theology of the Congregation as an example. Still, he was only human, like us. But we are sure that his redactors weren’t. It is arguable if some of them can be claimed to have… Read more »

Colin Coward
Guest

Where are we now? With the exception of +Gene Robinson, all TEC bishops have been invited to Lambeth. +Gene’s participation is still open to review. +Martyn Minns and others have not been invited. TEC has not been excluded from the Anglican Communion. The majority of bishops who met in Pittsburgh under the Common Cause banner are not Anglicans, if I read the information correctly. The conservatives, driven by disaffected TEC bishops, are planning to create their own Province, with the intention of gaining +Rowan’s approval to replace TEC. +Rowan is not going to approve such a thing. These bishops are… Read more »

NP
Guest
NP

Pat – unlike TEC HOB, I do not believe the Spirit contradicts Himself – so I find it hard to believe he is now suddenly saying it is just fine to have an alcoholic or an adulterer as a bishop when He made it clear (through Paul and others) throughout the bible that it was not fine in God’s eyes for leaders to justtify their sins and stay in leadership. Pluralist – you can try and claim that TEC HOB did not move under pressure from the ABC and his political advisors if you want (but they did move!)……they have… Read more »

NP
Guest
NP

Goran – there are real biblical scholars who you should read eg NT Wright (+Durham) …..I will stick with them and think you will learn a lot (given you say you are so unsure about so much in the bible) from reading their work

NP
Guest
NP

Colin – you are jumping the gun a bit- all we have had is TEC’s response to the Primates……

Let’s wait and see what reponses we get from the Pimates (the important ones – not ireland et al) and also from leading CofE bishops like +Durham

Merseymike
Guest
Merseymike

But we have already had many responses, NP. The expected ones from the far-right conservatives, who are likely to be departing with their American refusenik colleagues ( and good riddance to the lot of them!)