Thinking Anglicans

reports of the Clergy Consultation event

Updated Friday morning

The Lesbian and Gay Clergy Consultation organised a service today, at which, according to Ruth Gledhill, the Archbishop of Canterbury presided and preached.

Her blog report is headlined Rowan celebrates ‘secret’ gay communion service, although pretty obviously it wasn’t a secret that it was happening.

Her online newspaper story however is headlined Archbishop presides over ‘gay’ Eucharist.

Some other websites are temporarily unavailable, but I will add further links as soon as I am able.

However babyblue has noted in a comment at StandFirm that Martyn Minns preached at an Integrity eucharist in November 2001. A report of that event can be found in this PDF document.

StandFirm articles with comments about this event are here and also here. And now also this one. My, my they are excited. Meanwhile over at T19 comments on this topic have to be submitted by email.

Update
Changing Attitude has this press release: Archbishop of Canterbury meets LGBT members of the Consultation.

And the paper version of The Times has this version of Ruth Gledhill’s story: Archbishop of Canterbury Dr Rowan Williams, at ‘secret’ gay ceremony. The scare quotes in the headline have moved over one word!

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Peter O
Guest

There seems to be a major problem with Fasthosts this evening. My site is out for the count.

Merseymike
Guest
Merseymike

Something which appears to be confused: the conservative statement reports that there ius a problem with offering the Eucharist to partnered gay people. This is very definitely NOT the policy of the Church of England. I have received communion at least three times from Bishop James Jones of Liverpool. He knew well that I am in a long term gay relationship. The Church of England does not use the Eucharist as a political weapon. Gay couples are welcome at the altar. Now, some may like it to be different, and no doubt the church they are likely to join in… Read more »

L Roberts
Guest
L Roberts

This will in fact be Rowan’s second visit to the Clergy Consultation. The first was held at the Royal Foundation of St. Katherine (Limehouse). btw a celebration of mass is an integral part of these gatherings. Perhaps, Church Society, Ruth Gledhill et al object to Catholic faith as well as queerness? Now Ruth Gledhill is trying to stir some shit by imposing the term honey-moon on this couple –who have been together for years. Anyway who has Real honey-moons these days?! (Modern sexual arrangements are much more civilised). Ruth, stop being snide and let this couple just be happy and… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

The PDF is interesting for what it won’t say.

As anyone familiar with dicatorships and political censorship knows this immediately makes the impression there was more to it, than there actually was…

;=)

Hugh of Lincoln
Guest
Hugh of Lincoln

Isn’t there a public interest in publishing the content of a talk given by ABC on “present realities and future possibilities for lesbians and gay men in the church.” Why keep things hushed up after the social revolution of the last few decades? Who are we afraid of now?

Ruth’s comment on Gene and Mark’s honeymoon was the sweetest thing she’s said all week. It’d be lovely for them to receive a blessing in Canterbury Cathedral during Lambeth. Perhaps one of Gene’s colleagues might oblige.

Pluralist
Guest

Yes the glee is obvious in the tone of the Ruth Gledhill piece. She certainly gives her game away. It was an important symbol, presiding at the eucharist. I don’t think anyone should be bothered about an answer not giving the location away – this was not an occasion to be disrupted but one for a pastoral relationship. Symbolically it is clearly an example where Rowan Williams has continued to do what he intended to do, and, as before on other matters, it is up to those who see this as (another) turning point to organise themselves in whatever way… Read more »

drdanfee
Guest
drdanfee

Well I haven’t even gotten around to reading Ruth G yet, but let me go out onna limb and risk predicting that she will preach that the moral sky is falling. My crystal ball of realignment clarity informs me that RG will claim this eucharist demonstrates the horrible and slightly silly fact that the CoE must have publicly flounced even farther down those famous conservative realignment slippery slopes. How ever shall we not all, unavoidably, end up wanting to marry poodles? Sadly, I predict that RG will rely upon the loud sounding of piercing alarm, complete with stereotypes of the… Read more »

Prior Aelred
Guest

Well, Ruth does say that an inside source confirms that Bishop Robinson (& his partner) will definitely be at Lambeth (which makes the threat to boycott because of his absence seem rather odd) — re: same sex couples in the C of E — my understanding was that Issues in Sexuality regarded openly partnered lay folk as full members of the Church in every way — eligible for parish councils, Synod, etc. — but that there is a different morality for the clergy who are “better” than the laity — I confess that I find this troubling — the New… Read more »

Margaret
Guest
Margaret

“T19 comments on this topic have to be submitted by email.”

Unfortunately this is a regular occurrence on T19 these days — it used to be only the liberal blogs that screened comments.

Cynthia Gilliatt
Guest
Cynthia Gilliatt

For some reason I can’t open the thingy about Martyn preaching at an Integrity service. I know that Integrity Virginia invited him to do so several years ago. Is this that occasion?

IT
Guest
IT

Shocked! I’m shocked that there are gay people in this establishment!

IT

Joseph O'Leary
Guest

A civilized and Christian event. The flurry over at Stand Firm brought a counter-reaction even from some of the posters there.

Joseph
Guest
Joseph

L Roberts: I don’t think that Ms. Gledhill is particularly interested in either journalistic integrity or truthfulness.

kieran crichton
Guest
kieran crichton

This all kind of begs an obvious question: “So what?” The only people who are objecting to this are the same folks who think Rowan to be a heretic, and aren’t afraid to say so publicly. Ruth Gledhill has shown once again why she won’t be short listed for any journalism prizes any time in the next century in trying to beat up something so entirely trivial as a sermon to a group of Christians attempting to lead their lives with integrity and seeking the grace of God in doing so. Surely the conservatives cannot be so ossified in their… Read more »

Matthew Duckett
Guest
Matthew Duckett

Ruth Gledhill’s parting shot is sadly all too revelatory:

“Lambeth is looking as if it will be wonderful for the media. Even in the unlikely event that we’ll be invited to any seminars, we won’t actually have to attend them. We will be free to make mischief on the highways and byways of Kent University, like we did last time. And the time before that.”

For shame.

Stephen Roberts
Guest
Stephen Roberts

Rowan presides at a Eucharist where some recipients are homosexual. No surprises there, he won’t be the first +Cantuar to do so, he won’t be the last.

Phillips, Turnbull, Giddings and Sugden throw their toys clear of the pram. No surprise there either.

Just to save time, let’s just take “Faithful to scripture, TWR, Lambeth 1.10, DWR and ‘clobber verses’.” as read – that should pretty well cover the next 100 posts.

Any real news today?

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

“… it used to be only the liberal blogs that screened comments.”

This is false witness, Margaret.

MJ
Guest
MJ

“T19 comments on this topic have to be submitted by email.” Margaret: “Unfortunately this is a regular occurrence on T19 these days…” Probably because it invariable leads to delightful posts like the following from Stand Firm, written in response to someone questioning an innuendo regarding the service: “If homosexual men are going to present themselves as openly promiscuous and if they are going to present their open promiscuity as a positive and attractive aspect of the gay lifestyle, then you can’t very well complain when people take then at their word. Would it shock me if a group of homosexual… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“it used to be only the liberal blogs that screened comments.” Not so, Margaret. I don’t believe I’ve ever been allowed to post anything, and I made sure my comments were quite innocent, on either T19 or Venomonline. Sorry, you can’t turn this into persecution either. I even got a password on one conservative blog, it being thus protected, and was subsequently blocked without being told why. That instance, all the same, was on the lines of some of the things Simon, thankfully, doesn’t post from me here, a little too over the top for the site. It would have… Read more »

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

I’m utterly shocked by MJ’s post. Maybe I need to get out more but this kind of ignorance and venom after “decades of listening” is astonishing.

And how sad to delete a whole string of comments because one is appalled by ones own supporters. The honest archives of TA are one of this blog’s greatest strengths.

ettu
Guest
ettu

Margaret,Margaret,Margaret- I would take exception to your comment about liberal blogs being less open – shall we say less inclusive? – than conservative blogs. Over the years I have seen the exact opposite. As a corollary, I have seen the quality of “debate” on conservative blogs decline dramatically. As those with dissenting viewpoints are hounded off T19 and similar blogs, those left behind serve only to support one another in their predetermined nasty comments and thoughts – the only analogy I can make is a barnyard of hogs revelling in their mud. They may be happy but they cannot learn… Read more »

Lapinbizarre
Guest
Lapinbizarre

You do have to hand it to Baby Blue for pointing out on StandFirm that Martyn Minns had attended and preached at an Integrity eucharist. There’s a sizable hard-core core element at SF who hold firmly to the “shoot the messenger” principal when anything is posted that they don’t like or don’t want to hear, and as Simon notes, they’re pretty excited right now. I very occasionally post there, a little more frequently at T19, where folks are generally less strident and more friendly, but for the most part I keep it on a strictly “informational” level and don’t set… Read more »

Kevin
Guest
Kevin

“This is false witness, Margaret.”

No it is not. When I hit post here or other ‘liberal’ blogs I get this message how my comment will be posted after the moderator reviews it. On many ‘conservative’ blogs I see my comment right away.

So watch making a false accusation or the guilt maybe back on you.

Now to say all blogs have the right to delete comments or ban people they deem is obnoxious is true, but on the front end there is generally a practice of review of all comments on ‘liberals’ and more unrestricted postings on ‘conservative’ blogs.

Merseymike
Guest
Merseymike

Margaret, I was banned from both Anglican Mainstream and Stand Firm. That’s the way conservative blogs deal with opposition.

How do orthodox blogs cope? After all, given your move to orthodoxy, that might make an interesting comparison.

MJ
Guest
MJ

Kevin: “When I hit post here or other ‘liberal’ blogs I get this message how my comment will be posted after the moderator reviews it. On many ‘conservative’ blogs I see my comment right away.” It depends on how they’re run. If there are plenty of ‘moderators’ constantly keeping an eye on postings then anything truly obnoxious can usually be caught swiftly and deleted (although sometimes it isn’t and remains for quite a period of time before being removed). Other blogs are virtually ‘one man’ operations where postings cannot be continually checked – an obnoxious post could remain there for… Read more »

Simon Sarmiento
Guest

The current approval process here is as much designed to prevent spam from appearing as it is to provide a means for censorship. It varies but some days I spend far more time removing spam than I do deciding whether to approve posts from humans.

Kevin
Guest
Kevin

“If Thinking Anglicans was operating a censorship of ‘conservatives’, then why have we been readings NP’s numerous posts for months on end?” First TA is one of the better ones to allow discussion, I don’t ever remember one of my posts going into oblivion. Second is NP tend to merely disagree with the majority of the folks on TA but seems civil in language. I’ve seem witty discourse of opposing sides on the others blog, I’ve also seen where folks get banned (often, but not always, I sympathize with the blog owner), one thing NP has that most do not… Read more »

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

“Kevin: “When I hit post here or other ‘liberal’ blogs I get this message how my comment will be posted after the moderator reviews it. On many ‘conservative’ blogs I see my comment right away.” And have you ever found that any of your posts were being censored? The few occasions where mine weren’t published were when I was exceeding the word limit, when an electronic error had occured and the post was published on 2nd submission, or when I had to admit that I had been rather rude and it was rightly felt better to ignore this particular post.… Read more »

Andy
Guest
Andy

This is the type of blog entry that can be seen at Stand Firm:

“The question one might have is does revealed truth have anything to do with anything in the established hierarchy–or is it just time for a complete reformation complete with heads on fence posts.” (http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/8011/#151479)

It is from a poster named Don Armstrong, presumably Armstrong+ of the Diocese of Colorado fame. While I am not shocked or surprised that a comment including “heads on fence posts” would appear on that site, I am speechless that it could come from clergy.

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“To offer this to those in gay partnered relationships went contrary to biblical teaching and to the teaching by the bishops themselves in their document Issues in Human Sexuality, they said.” In the Eucharist, we come into the Real Presence of Jesus. When His Real Presence walked the earth, He ate with sinners. Now the Anglican Church brings the Real presence to sinners. (No argument about whether or not being gay is a sin for the purpose of this comment). When He was here in the flesh, He was roundly ciritized for associating with said sinners, and His critics were… Read more »

drdanfee
Guest
drdanfee

Having now glossed the RG pieces, I see that their tone is a bit less smug and a bit less breathlessly self-righteous than I might have expected. So good thing that the faithful folks at StandFirm are busy filling in all the negative false witness blanks. Have you read your due quota of trash talk, today? Yet, RG does get in her little bit of smug, superior comments – right at the end in her bit about running the highways and byways to make as much mischief as she can, come the next Lambeth. Like a papparazzi? RG will stalk… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“I’m utterly shocked by MJ’s post. Maybe I need to get out more but this kind of ignorance and venom after “decades of listening” is astonishing.” Why, Erika? Certain posters on this site obviously have the same views, they just aren’t quite as overt and hateful about them. How many times have you or I or someone else been forced to point out that what is being asked for by gay people is NOT blessing of promiscuity? The language I don’t mind, that’s just getting all flowery in one’s indignation. I do the same. But I get the feeling that… Read more »

Malcolm+
Guest
Malcolm+

Margaret and Kevin, I think the term “false witness” was quite a gentle description of Margaret’s original charge. I’d have called it a damnable lie. I see no evidence here that Margaret’s half-truths, occasional untruths and arguably racist comments have been prevented from appearing. And NP himself is prima facie evidence that Margaret’s accusation is pure and utter tripe. As opposed to the practice on some conservative blogs were dissenting comments either do not appear at all or are occasionally removed soon after appearing. My most curious experience in this regard was when it took me a week to get… Read more »

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

Ford,
“Why, Erika? “
Because, actually, I don’t have such a big problem with promiscuity if it means having successive relationships that one is deeply serious about at the time, although I accept that many Christians do find this abhorrent.

But “went into the church basement and sodomized each other like rats” is a totally different catoegory of imagination and insult.

Even among the lies there are degrees.

choirboyfromhell
Guest
choirboyfromhell

“Thank you Mark and Gene, and congratulations.”

Gee, isn’t being civil nice, even when you are being obviously facetious. Just like the “old” Episcopal Church. Now keep that face rigid, turn around and go to your proper place were you belong.

Mary Sue
Guest

If I understand what I’m reading correctly, the issue is “OMG the ABC was near GAY PEOPLE and may now have the GAY COOTIES!”

AlaninLondon
Guest
AlaninLondon

Getting back to the point about whether +Rowan should have celebrated the Eucharist for this group of people. I think Cramner had it right in his Book of Common Prayer. AFTER the Confession and Absolution but before the Consecration he inserts the Prayer of Humble Access: ‘We do not presume to come to this thy Table, O merciful Lord, trusting in our own righteousness, but in thy manifold and great mercies. We are not worthy so much…..’ This makes a very powerful theological point that NONE of us can approach Jesus in the Holy Sacrament through our own merits (not… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

Erika, I think the biggest problem with serial monogamy is lack of stability, and that’s only a real issue when kids are concerned. It’s also accepted after a fashion by the Church. The Real Orthodox allow for remarriage at least once, and I think twice, in recognition that humans are fallible and things don’t always work out. As to the language, well, we get excited and some of us, and I acknowledge myself among that number, love indulging in turgid prose (see?), so I’m not too fussed up by that. But don’t think that these ideas, that we are looking… Read more »

John Henry
Guest
John Henry

Ford Elms is spot on: “This is the worst part, they are judging their stereotype of me, which they make as bad as they can, justify it with trumped up ‘science, then claim that their judgement of that stereotype is actually God’s judgement of me. And they call that Christianity.” Have gay-hating Evos never read in Holy Writ that “pride comes before the fall”? An observant Jew, philosopher and theologian, who taught at Columbia and the University of Chicago during WW II, once remarked in jest: “To be an observant Jew one has to be an ‘atheist’; or else one… Read more »

Lou Poulain
Guest
Lou Poulain

Ford, you said: “How many times have you or I or someone else been forced to point out that what is being asked for by gay people is NOT blessing of promiscuity?” I have come to the conclusion that certain people simply CAN’T hear, or CAN’T understand, any communication that falls outside their preconceived notions. Hence the utter failure of the “listening process.” I think we can say, til we are blue in the face, that we are talking about committed relationships. Certain people can’t get past their stereotypes. But it’s so damned disheartening to see those sterotypes expressed in… Read more »

Kevin
Guest
Kevin

Malcolm+

My you seemed very exercised by Margaret’s complaint against T19 policy on that one thread. I’m not sure it’s quite “a damnable lie” as I’ve listed, but amused/confused by your response (though I’m sure the actual object of Margaret’s complaint may be honored by your defense). Her disagreement was at Kendall Harmon and expressed on TA, so your reply is quite interesting. However, all this is far too silly and off-topic, so I bid you a wonderful day.

drdanfee
Guest
drdanfee

Thanks to RG and other rightwing believer campaigning, we are asked to strain at gnats and swallow realignment camels whole. The subtext of alarm and worry beneath the controversy of Rowan Williams at a carefully located/timed eucharist for extremely closeted and at-risk queer believers in CoE should mainly be around the closet, with careful scrutiny attached to the ways in which traditional views inevitably help create and mandate those closets (along with the closet dangers to body and mind and spirit); NOT around the fact that a sizeable minority of believers turns out to be, in fact, not straight, not… Read more »

Malcolm+
Guest

“sodomized each other like rats”

I though part of the anti-gay narrative was that there is no “sodomy” among animals.

Mark Bennet
Guest
Mark Bennet

One day some people may understand that listening involves getting close to people and engaging with their ideas – challenging, yes, but teasing out explanations and clarifications too. Rowan Williams seems to me to be leading by example in engaging in listening – you may disagree with me, but many of the disagreements are from people who simply want him to get up and declare ex cathedra that they are right. Forget making God in your own image, start with the Archbishop. Too many people at the moment are too fond of their own voices. What room is there for… Read more »

Cheryl Va. Clough
Guest

The conservatives have been doing censorship for a long time; people who throw stones usually find their glasshouses very drafty. I don’t need to share my own experiences here as others have already jumped to seal the breach. Well done. The holding of comments is fantastic. I had to close down my own forum as my website host did not have a solution at the time for the “bots” that were posting links onto the forum. Since TA has been run with such integrity and has, as Erika commented, an excellent archival system I have not felt the need to… Read more »

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

Fr Mark “Rowan Williams seems to me to be leading by example in engaging in listening – you may disagree with me, but many of the disagreements are from people who simply want him to get up and declare ex cathedra that they are right.” One of the things I remember most about a lecture he gave once was his insistence that we have to take the startling otherness of the other as a starting point for any conversation. Even those we feel close to are “other” and cannot be fully known. There was such a tenderness about this, such… Read more »

Joseph O'Leary
Guest

“When I hit post here or other ‘liberal’ blogs I get this message how my comment will be posted after the moderator reviews it. On many ‘conservative’ blogs I see my comment right away.”

Most conservative blogs, as far as I can see, BAN those whose views they disagree with. That is why you see so little variety of opinion or real debate on them.

Fr Mark
Guest
Fr Mark

Erika: re yr 10.43 post. I think we are two different Marks – it’s a pain having such a common name!

Malcolm+
Guest
Malcolm+

Kevin, do be serious.

My issue is not with Margaret’s dislike of Fr. Kendall’s moderation of T19, but rather her lie that liberal sites routinely eliminate conservative (or “conservative”) voices.

Mark Bennet
Guest
Mark Bennet

Fr Mark

Thanks for your comment – in our case the persons do need to be divided – for my sanity and for yours, if not for any other reason! Though I would assert that our uniqueness is God-given and significant for that reason.

But the name is not so common as it was. When I went to register our daughter’s birth I looked up the names in our family – Mark, Peter, John and David were not in the top 20. I guess it is a generational thing. In my day it was definitely confusing at school.