Thinking Anglicans

more from Greg Venables on Canada

Gregory Venables has written his opinions (scroll down the page) on specific points raised by the November 29th Pastoral Statement of the Primate and Metropolitans of the Anglican Church of Canada.

For Immediate Release: November 30, 2007

1. Regarding extending a place in the Anglican Communion for those who in all conscience cannot remain in their Province, Archbishop Venables quoted scripture:

“Jesus said, ‘Which of you if your son or ox fall into the well won’t immediately pull him out on the Sabbath?’

Are we keeping the law or the spirit of the law?”

2. Regarding the provision for pastoral care and episcopal support being adequate and appropriate:

“Surely this would require agreement from the recipients as well as those in power.”

3. Regarding the contravening of agreements by interventions:

“In the Dar es Salaam communiqué we said, “Furthermore, those Primates who have undertaken interventions do not feel that it is right to end those interventions until it becomes clear that sufficient provision has been made for the life of those persons.”

On the other hand the bishop of New Westminster within the ACOC a few hours after the appearance of the Primates’ letter from Brazil in 2003 went ahead with the very action the letter had pleaded should not be taken. It also went against the Bible and the consensus of 2000 years of Christianity.

The implication of this violation and the resulting crisis was ignored.

Since then there have been egregious examples in clear rejection of Lambeth 1 10, Windsor and the requests of the Communion leadership. Once again nothing has been said even though this has meant the tearing apart of the Anglican Communion and an exodus from the church.

Now suddenly those who seek to take care of those who side with historic, biblical Christianity and the Anglican Communion are accused of the very lapse that has produced the crisis.

Is it possible in the real world to use the very agreements that one is contravening to protect oneself”.

4. Regarding Bishop Donald Harvey’s response to the Pastoral Statement (Nov. 30, 2007):

Bishop Don Harvey’s response is an accurate assessment of the cause of the current crisis and interpretation of the Primates’ statements. I am grateful to my brothers and sisters in Christ who wrote letters in support of for these actions and in support of ANiC and the ministry of biblically faithful Communion committed Canadian Anglicans. Thanks be to God.

The Anglican Journal has an interview: South American archbishop sees ‘denial’ and ‘hypocrisy’ in Canadian leaders’ statement

and there is a sidebar, Quick facts: The Anglican Church of the Southern Cone of America.

The Anglican Network in Canada itself had this to say about the Pastoral Letter.

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Leonardo Ricardo
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Leonardo Ricardo

Twisted, weak, defensive and almost sad…not quite to be pitied because PB Venables is a dangerous “bit player” to fellow Christians/others wherever he goes and in much of what he views/accepts as “fair” Province crossing Anglican Communion “poaching.” It was Venables who traveled to Canada directly from the Primates “Dromatine” Meeting to initiate “fear/hate-mongering” without pause at The Body of Christ.

L Roberts
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L Roberts

Surely, us gays are due the care of sons (/ daughters?) —or at least of oxen Greg Venables ?

Pluralist
Guest

“In the Dar es Salaam communiqué we said, “Furthermore, those Primates who have undertaken interventions do not feel that it is right to end those interventions until it becomes clear that sufficient provision has been made for the life of those persons.” That’s like a minority report, an opinion of some bad boys carrying on being bad boys. The interventions were still supposed to be stopped. It is clear that the national Churches are autonomous and for some that means exporting elsewhere. If the Anglican Communion can stay as a diverse body then autonomy and intervention will seem to be… Read more »

Jim Pratt
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Jim Pratt

Don Harvey’s hubris never ceases to amaze me.

Together with Bishop Venables, he quotes Dar as authorizing new border-crossings. At the very most, the quoted passage allows continuance of the status quo, not new interventions.

As to members of ACiC “cooperat[ing] with all Communion processes”, I seem to recall the Panel of Reference taking a different view, in endorsing the Canadian scheme for alternative episcopal oversight. The dissidents have ignored this route.

But reconciliation is not their goal. Their motto is “My way or the highway”. May God’s grace go with them as they choose to walk apart.

Ford Elms
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Ford Elms

“But reconciliation is not their goal.”

Exactly. I think +Harvey is after primate of the Southern Cone. Given who else is in the running, I think can can whistle for that! I doubt “Exarch of the Faithful Canadian Remnant” will be enough. He’ll just have to settle for going down in the history books as the one who held the line against gay people.

cpo
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cpo

As regards the various comments, I thought this was the “Thinking” Anglicans blog.

Ford Elms
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Ford Elms

“As regards the various comments, I thought this was the “Thinking” Anglicans blog.” Do enlighten us, then. Tell me, what are +Harvey’s motivations? +Venables? How do you justify them referring to people who do not agree with them as “faithless”? Trust me, that comment from +Harvey has caused much consternation in this his old diocese. Show me how “faithful” Anglicans are suffering in Canada under the heel of the “faithless” oppressor. Given that the Canadian HoB recently refused to authorize SSBs, explain how any parish in Canada has fallen into a well and needs to be rescued. I keep asking… Read more »

Merseymike
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Merseymike

It is, cpo. If you prefer the conservatives , you have plenty of other options.

JPM
Guest
JPM

cpo, you certainly are not doing anything to raise the tone.

Erika Baker
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Erika Baker

“As regards the various comments, I thought this was the “Thinking” Anglicans blog.”

And what comment should a thinking person have made?

cpo
Guest
cpo

Regarding Ricardo: “Twisted, weak, defensive and almost sad…not quite to be pitied because PB Venables is a dangerous ‘bit player'” – to the contrary +Venables is a prominent leader among the Primates of the Global South and therefore cannot so casually be dismissed. That he “traveled to Canada directly from the Primates “Dromatine” Meeting to initiate “fear/hate-mongering” without pause at The Body of Christ” is an amazing statement of ignorance from one who obviously was not present at that meeting. Regarding Roberts: “Surely, us gays are due the care of sons…” Without question, as Christians we are under the law… Read more »

Erika Baker
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Erika Baker

“Regarding Elms: Not worth commenting on.”

Ford’s question about how any parish in Canada is forced to accept something they don’t believe in is pertinent and deserves an answer.

There is this growing myth that liberals are forcing conservatives out of their churches, yet as far as I can make out all they are doing is asking to co-exist side by side.

Maybe you could engage constructively with Ford’s question in order to move the discussion forward?

cpo
Guest
cpo

Regarding Elms [second post]: “what are +Harvey’s motivations? +Venables? How do you justify them referring to people who do not agree with them as ‘faithless’?” It is not for me to judge either +Harvey’s of +Venables motivations other than by way of saying they are both deeply concerned about what seems to be the abandonment of Holy Scripture as the foundation of faith’s articulation. If not abandonement then surely marginalilization with more attention being granted to cultural fluctuation and argument. Perhaps it is in this light that the “faithless” comment should be understood. It is interesting, isn’t it, that the… Read more »

Leonardo Ricardo
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Leonardo Ricardo

“Regarding Ricardo: “Twisted, weak, defensive and almost sad…not quite to be pitied because PB Venables is a dangerous ‘bit player'” – to the contrary +Venables is a prominent leader among the Primates of the Global South and therefore cannot so casually be dismissed. That he “traveled to Canada directly from the Primates “Dromatine” Meeting to initiate “fear/hate-mongering” without pause at The Body of Christ” is an amazing statement of ignorance from one who obviously was not present at that meeting.” cpr

Get a grip Mr/Ms. know-it-all, even +Venables later mused it wasn’t one of his better/timely or well thought out intrustions!

Malcolm+
Guest

cpo: “It is interesting, isn’t it, that the Canadian HoB refused to authorize same-sex blessings but nevertheless Ottawa, Montreal and Niagara have each passed motions in this regard, their respective bishops holding the line at present but indicating every intention to proceed and the Primate simply stating they had clearly followed due process. How is it possible to follow due process when that which is to be considered has at a General Synod been disallowed?” Malcolm+ opines: Isn’t it interesting that those horrible clerics and lay people in Ottawa, Niagara and Montreal actually believe that, as members of synod, they… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

CPO wrote: “Regarding Elms [second post]: “what are +Harvey’s motivations? +Venables? How do you justify them referring to people who do not agree with them as ‘faithless’?” Dear CPO, Ford Elms knows +Bishop Harvey personally. +Venables has indeed broken his trust, his fealty, his oath, his loyalty (to use the biblical word) with his little game of province hopping. CPO wrote: “It is not for me to judge either +Harvey’s of +Venables motivations…“ Not unless you are their personal Psychiatrist. CPO wrote: “… other than by way of saying they are both deeply concerned about what seems to be the… Read more »

Pat O'Neill
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Pat O'Neill

You know I hadn’t thought of the obvious secular analogy on this until now: “CPO wrote: “However, by having to pay assessments etc. they are being “forced” to underwrite the programs and policy of their Diocese and this, against conscience. Not to pay said assessments will indeed be costly.” By having to pay my income taxes, I am being “forced” to underwrite a war in Iraq (not to mention many other Bush administration programs I disagree with), against my conscience. Does CPO suggest I should stop paying taxes, or declare myself a citizen of some other nation (without actually moving,… Read more »

Lapinbizarre
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Lapinbizarre

“+Venables’ intervention is not new – it was he who took the Diocese of Recife under wing in 2005.”

It was he who took the former bishop of Recife under his wing in 2005, cpo.

cpo
Guest
cpo

Can see how the general character of the discussion has improved?

JPM
Guest
JPM

>>>Regarding JPM: Now I am raising the tone.

Repeating tired talking points that we have all heard a thousand times is not raising the tone.

John Holding
Guest
John Holding

CPO wrote: By facing the very real possibility of losing all properties because they feel unable to go along with the present course, properties which in the vast majority of cases, wer bought and paid for by parishioners themselves without much if any support from the Diocese In the casea of Ottawa, Niagara and Montreal — the dioceses that passed the motions in question — that’s simple nonsense. In the case of Ottawa, which I know because it’s my diocese, only one parish has even expressed an opinion. It’s a parish that is 140 years old, whose building was largely… Read more »

Nom de Plume
Guest
Nom de Plume

Malcom+ wrote: “There is some disagreement of the net effect of the decision of General Synod in defeating the “local option” resolution. Most, I believe, interpret the matter that this, effectively, disallowed diocesan synods proceeding on their own. That is my interpretation of it, and I stand with the now departed +Victoria of Edmonton and with +Jim Columbia. However, there is a reasonable interpretation that there is a difference between declining to grant permission on the one hand and actually forbidding on the other. While I don’t agree with proceeding this way, it is a coherent position.” There is one… Read more »

Malcolm+
Guest

Tomayto, tomahto.

At the end of the day, some of us (from both sides) believe that it was General Synod’s intention to say “don’t.” Others see it differently.

I note that the “other side” did not feel they had the necessary support to pass an unequivocal “no.”

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

Tomatoes?

As in Killer Tomatoes attack from outer space?

(immortal 1950ies film, saying everything that need be said about the current American political mind set)

choirboyfromhell
Guest
choirboyfromhell

NO, no! My vote is for “It Came From Outer Space”.

Monsters so ugly that they hid to do their dirty work (repair their craft to get out) and would assume a human form to interact with humans when necessary.

Complete with the Theremin providing background music.

Robert Ian Williams
Guest
Robert Ian Williams

What Bishop Venables is ” orthodox Biblical Anglicanism” ? Is it Anglo-Catholic, with seven sacraments, the real presence, the sacrifice of the Mass, worshipping the consecrated Host as God, Praying for the dead and to the Saints….a la San Joaquin and Fort Worth Or is it Jim Packer ( Canadian Branch) affirming real absence, two sacraments, no prayers for the dead No sacrifice but calvary, No confessional but the throne of grace. Or is ” Biblical Orthodox Anglicanism” code word for ” a blibd eye to everything other than the gays” Bishop Venables who has the real true Gospel and… Read more »

Fr Mark
Guest
Fr Mark

Robt Ian Williams: you make a very good point. The North American schismatics will quickly set to bickering and division on the basis of what you outline (and particularly their attitudes to women’s ordination), one has no doubt.