THINKING ANGLICANS

more on San Joaquin

Updated again Tuesday evening

Sunday Telegraph Jonathan Wynne-Jones Diocese splits from Church in gay row

The Living Church has this interesting account headlined Presiding Bishop Eyes New Leadership for Diocese of San Joaquin.

The Stockton Record has two three articles:
Church votes to secede and What would Jesus rue? (opinion column)
Staying true to the Scripture (opinion column)

Remain Episcopal had issued this press release in November: San Joaquin Diocese Will Continue With or Without Bishop Schofield (PDF file). The website of this organisation is here.

The official press release from the diocese is here: Diocese of San Joaquin Votes to Disassociate with The Episcopal Church. It includes the assertion that:

The Diocese of San Joaquin was founded as a missionary diocese in 1911 and became a full autonomous diocese in 1961.

Gregory Venables sent this message to San Joaquin.

Monday updates

Daily Telegraph Anglican diocese quits over gay rights by Catherine Elsworth

Los Angeles Times Some parishes won’t secede by Rebecca Trounson

The Remain Episcopal website has various messages of support linked from the home page.

Tuesday update

Bakersfield Californian Local believers discuss church split and as epiScope notes:

A representative of the Diocesan Office said that Schofield told the news media Friday during the convention that individual parishes within the diocese are free to remain in the Episcopal Church as long as they settle any outstanding debts first.

So…what does that mean for the 20 San Joaquin congregations (out of 56) currently in mission status?

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Charlotte
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Charlotte

The Living Church writes: “The unprecedented decision by an Episcopal diocese to affiliate with another diocese will undoubtedly have significant implications for the future of the Anglican Communion as primates and provinces line up either for or against whether Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams withdraws Bishop Schofield’s invitation to next year’s Lambeth Conference. “Archbishop Williams was briefed on the invitation by the Southern Cone in September during a meeting in London with Archbishop Gregory Venables. To date he has not issued a public statement. Archbishop Williams is expected to address this and other issues of Communion in an Advent letter… Read more »

Merseymike
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Merseymike

I certainly hope it DOES happen in England! TEC should actively reach out to progressive parishes who would much rather relate to KJS than Williams the Spineless. If we are able to choose which province we relate to then that has to work both ways.

Charlotte
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Charlotte

Sorry, Merseymike, I can’t agree. The problem is, that kind of Church is like the Witch of Narnia’s Turkish Taffy: looks good, goes down smooth, but it’s not food, and leaves us emptier than before. If the Erasmian Reformers’ idea of a Thinking People’s Church parts company for good and all with the Catholic Tradition, we will all be the losers. I am feeling very grim at the moment.

Fr Mark
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Fr Mark

Charlotte: If there are anti-gay English diocesan bishops, such as Nazir-Ali in Rochester, who support the incursions in North America, then surely it is only to be expected that liberals in England, who have no diocesan bishops prepared to speak up for sanity with regard to gay people, should think it right to ask for similar pastoral help from a diocese such as New Hampshire?

MJ
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MJ

Did anyone notice in the ‘scaremongering’ section of +Schofield’s address the following section:

“The Lectionary, where we draw our biblical lessons from for public services, has already been
changed. The fact that you may not have noticed a difference is due directly to the permission I
have given to our clergy to continue to use the Lectionary we all know. This along with many other
innovations not only would –but will– come about under a new bishop.”

So, according to +Schofield, the Revised Common Lectionary is a dangerous liberal innovation which must be resisted!!!

Anyone know which lectionary Southern Cone use? 🙂

Charlotte
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Charlotte

Fr Mark: We could expect that liberal English parish clergy would seek to join North American Provinces. I think we can expect with greater certainty that Bishop Nazir-Ali will seek to lead a separate Consevo Anglican presence in Great Britain. (I assume Archbishop Williams will have no objection to his removing the Diocese of Rochester from the Church of England and joining it to Southern Cone, or Nigeria.) And likewise Anglicans across the Communion will break apart into multiple, ideologically-driven splinter groups. So: Where might this leave us? We find, on the one hand, that the Roman Catholic Church preserves… Read more »

Margaret
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Margaret

For a very short, and non-technical, analysis of the lectionary’s good and bad points designed for people in the pews go to this site: http://www.stjohnsinthecity.org.nz/about/publications.htm and then click on September 2005 A short extract: So what are the distinctive omissions in the RCL? Firstly there are the omissions we should be glad of – the cutting of the long genealogies and descriptions of tribal boundaries and obsolete laws of the early books of the Bible, and the culling of the repetitive prophecies of doom in many of the prophets. Surely these are gratefully received. But then there are the omissions… Read more »

Martin Reynolds
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I am at a loss to understand why this bishop and his supporters should take this path. I can only think that this “solution” was suggested by their lawyers. Lawyers who must be looking for work. This disastrous decision will impact adversely on all the people of the diocese, but most especially on those who have left the Episcopal Church. Many more years will now be wasted and those same lawyers who devised this “scheme” will be rich while all others are impoverished. With all the gathered wisdom of those who are disaffected in the United States and those outside… Read more »

drdanfee
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drdanfee

Hmm to recall Arthur Conan Doyle, the realignment game’s afoot Watson and all. I note with some fascination that Bishop Sch. is still trying to slightly spin this as de facto alternative primatial oversight, as if he will not detach himself institutionally now from any outsider TEC review of how his diocese just happens to handle funds, properties, and – oh wait, the vote wasn’t unanimous after all – responds to people (lefts, mixed middles, maybe even some rights?) who dissent for any number of different conscientious reasons from his allegedly ethical high needs to stop rubbing shoulders with anybody… Read more »

EPfizH
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EPfizH

Charlotte… From my understanding it was +Venables who reported +Williams’ words as solely +Venables. Do you have any other source. Adoption of such a policy is in total opposition to the entire history of Lambeth from 1867 on. +Venables has been named a “renegade” by the previous bishop of Mexico. +Lyons has been so named by Bishop Iloff. Like Thomas, I doubt their reporting. I can not imagine that +Rowan would have approved +Venables’ actions without consultation. Even if he called it “a reasonable way forward” that does not mean he agreed and approved of the implementation the scheme employed… Read more »

mark wharton
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mark wharton

I have to most sincere respect for the Diocese of San Joaquin; they are trying to remain faithful to the universal catholic faith of the Apostles. I am sure Christ and Our Lady have guided them to this move. Let us pray for them for I fear the battle has only just begun.

Cynthia Gilliatt
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Cynthia Gilliatt

“Anyone know which lectionary Southern Cone use? 🙂 Didn’t John-David notice when we changed from the one in the 1928 book? A serious question: how do Southern Cone dioceses pick bishops? I ask because I suspect that in this diocese and several others that will try to bolt, a lot fo the support comes from clergy personally recruited by and/or personally loyal to the bishops. When these incumbants retire or die, how will they be replaced? My understanding that in Nigeria, for example, it is the college of bishops who elect – hence Minns and soon more. I wonder how… Read more »

Merseymike
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Merseymike

Absolutely, Mark. I would fully support TEC in reaching out to people who agree in the UK, for sadly, our Bishops are largely cowards who will not speak out.

A split is clearly going to come one way or the other, as I told the leaders of Changing Attitude before they threw me out. So lets just get on with it.

drdanfee
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drdanfee

Remain Episcopal in the realigning diocese can be emailed at: contact@remainepiscopal.org Support is pouring in from all around the world – though obtusely, Canterbury remains silent for the time being. We have already been here, thanks to Recife leaving Brazil for – guess where? – the Southern Cone and Venebles. No matter what Rowan Williams does now, he will be judged wrong by the believers on the contrary ends of our fragmented believer spectrums – all because prior to this point, Canterbury would not strictly and clearly uphold the worldwide institutional space within which we Anglicans all could conscientiously discern… Read more »

Pluralist
Guest

So this time, if not for Harvey in Canada, Rowan Williams has to decide whether to withdraw a bishop who, in the Southern Cone, is making incursions. So the fence, as such, is not an option.

Pluralist
Guest

Charlotte. Your points are very honest, and you are facing up to something that perhaps many don’t: how much does the liberal belief ride on the back of either a full blown Catholic stance or fully doctrinal evangelical belief? I’m afraid I cannot agree with you, that whilst there is a case for conserving liturgy and behaving symbolically, theology has to stand on its own and worked-through merits. My beliefs and stances are not dependent on the existence of a package; as a liberal I construct my faith according to resources but each part by part. This is important because,… Read more »

Curtis
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Curtis

Martin Reynolds, here’s a website for Episcopalians staying that way in San Joaquin.

http://www.remainepiscopal.org

Lister Tonge
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Lister Tonge

I hope the Episcopal Diocese of San Joaquin will be able to have in place a new bishop in time for him or her to be invited to Lambeth 2008.

John B. Chilton
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Lapinbizarre
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Lapinbizarre

An interesting question is raised by the fact that the dean of the San Joaquin cathedral, Mark Lawrence, is bishop-elect of South Carolina. Invitations have been sent out by the diocese of SC to the “Ordination and Consecration” (??) of Lawrence to be “a Bishop in the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church”.

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Malcolm+
Guest

Strange Rabbit,

There was a timwe when we referred to the creation of bishops as “consecration.” We “made” deacons, “ordained” (or occasionally “priested”) priests and “consecrated” bishops.

More recently, we have tended to referr to all three operations, properly, as ordinations.

david wh
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david wh

Shouldn’t the process of rescuing orthodox diocese and churches have been started four years ago when TEC showed that they had decided to reject scripture and the communion? Windsor, Dar-es-Salaam etc have all been treated the same way. The Communion shouldn’t waste more time; TEC deliberately walked away from communion.

JCF
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JCF

“four years ago when TEC showed that they had decided to reject scripture and the communion”

For heaven’s sake, David Wh., on WHAT do you base such a scurrilous accusation?

Erika Baker
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Erika Baker

“four years ago when TEC showed that they had decided to reject scripture and the communion” Seems to me we’d better start ignoring David Wh now or we only end up with another NP situation. If David would like to see answers to all these points he only needs to read the archives for the last few months. They’re repeated over and over in almost every thread. I have been one of those who got side tracked by NP again and again and I now thank all the others for stopping this nonsense and restoring TA to the thoughtful discussion… Read more »

david wh
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david wh

JCF wrote: “For heaven’s sake, David Wh., on WHAT do you base such a scurrilous accusation?” Well you might never have heard them read in church, because they are all omitted from the Revised Common Lectionary! Which make it easy to find the relevant scriptures… all you have to do is read the omitted parts of the NT Epistles (the RCL has an index of scripture readings at the back – just read the gaps) Try it, it’s fun ! Just in case you don’t have an RCL, here are some of its omissions: 1Cor 6:9-11 Do you not know… Read more »

david wh
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david wh

Erika Baker wrote: “…stopping this nonsense and restoring TA to the thoughtful discussion forum it should be.”

Thoughtful isn’t the preserve of liberal posters. I think that Erika is really just arguing for excluding views that she disagrees with.. You only need to read the Bible (and Lambeth and General Synod resolutions) to see the errors of liberalism.. but liberal posters keep reiterating their views. So what’s wrong with me showing they are wrong ?

Ford Elms
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Ford Elms

“Seems to me we’d better start ignoring David Wh now or we only end up with another NP situation.”

It has been a job of work for me to avoid just that situation. But, I guess I’m growing up. It’s the same phrases over and over again with nothing to back them up only the usual fear and paranoia. When people are this far into the myth, when they have so convinced themselves that the lions are even as we speak being caged and starved for the fun in the forum, there’s little else anyone can do.

Fr Mark
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Fr Mark

David Wh: we don’t agree with your reading of Scripture, and we’ve just spent ages arguing the same point with another equally convinced anti-gay Evangelical, NP. You need to read through the archive if you want to follow that debate. So cant phrases like “the errors of liberalism” are probably best avoided here at the moment. If you have particular points to raise relevant to the discussions underway on these threads, I’m sure we all want to engage with you, but just trying to lash out at us as liberal trash is not a good way to go about it.… Read more »

Jim Pratt
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Jim Pratt

The omissions in the RCL are hardly innovations. The daily office lectionary in the 1979 American BCP omits some of the same passages (even more noticeable, because of the in course nature of the readings). And the 1962 Canadian BCP (so revered by the Prayer Book Society which is part of Essentials) omits from the Psalter 1 or 2 whole Psalms and portions of several others which the editors deemed politically incorrect. My own practice (here in Canada we’ve been using the RCL for some time) is, when the RCL omits verses within a reading, to include them. It makes… Read more »

Ford Elms
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Ford Elms

“There are certainly more important things to get worked up about.”

What could possibly be more important than identifying the evil liberal/heathen conspiracy under every rock? +Harvey certainly thinks it’s important.

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

I don’t know that the passages in question have ever been in the Carolingian Lectionary. If you have indeed had them in your English one, my advice is that you find out since when. Year, month, week, day, hour. And Whodunit? Also, the “translation(s)” given here are erroneous to say the least. 1 Cor 6:9-10 is formed of (some of) the 10 Commandments, in order: 2nd, 7th, 8th, 10th. No translation should depart from these Commandments or their order, going off in strange (mostly sexualized) directions (think “fornicators”, “adulterers”, “male prostitutes”, “sodomites”, “thieves”, “robbers”). As to alias Jude verse 7… Read more »

Erika Baker
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Erika Baker

“I think that Erika is really just arguing for excluding views that she disagrees with.”

Could you please read through the threads of the last week and in particular the direct conversations I have been having with people. If you still think that I am only engaging with those who agree with me, get back to me and we can have a chat about that.

Robert Ian Williams
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Robert Ian Williams

The Bible can be misinterpretated , but if you have a Church, the pillar and foundation of the truth ( I Tim 3:15) and a commission from Christ , which says , ” he that hears you, hears me”… plus a promise that the gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church…you will know the correct interpretation…..as Jesus promised Peter that his Faith ( after his restoration) would not fail and that he would confirm the brethren and feed bothlambs and sheep.

Peter spoke through Leo at Chalcedon

Peter still speaks through Benedict

The Catholic Church has the answer!

Erika Baker
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Erika Baker

“The Catholic Church has the answer!”

Are you sure you’re on the right blog? Or are you planning to convert all the Anglicans here to Rome?

Andrew Carey
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Andrew Carey

“The Catholic Church has the answer!” No Erika, he doesn’t appear to be on the wrong blog, he’s here for his own reasons to add to the nastiness of the general debate among Anglicans. Thanks to Merseymike, I was eventually able to place where I recalled the name ‘Robert Ian Williams’. He was once an extremely conservative evangelical and is now an extremely conservative Roman Catholic. He’s involved with a group called ‘Catholic Action Group’ which has campaigned against the Catholic relief agency CAFOD, Comic Relief, and opposes joint Anglican/Catholic schools. Robert Ian Williams and Catholic Action Group are the… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

“The Catholic Church has the answer!” Trouble is, we a l l are the Catholic Church. And there are far too many answers. The Byzantine churches depending heavily on the States having leavened bread and married priests, with monks for Bishops. The Roman church having un-leavened bread, wine only for the priest, cardinals, Pope, “canon” law, “canonical” testament, mandatory celibacy and all the other innovations of the Gregorian political World Revolution; a mixis of church and state. The Anglican churches having un-leavened bread, wine for all, “canon” law, “canonical” testament, flirting with mandatory celibacy and other innovations of the Gregorian… Read more »

Mark Wharton
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Mark Wharton

Erica, do you not want a true unity with the rock of Peter? Surely it is the wish (or should be) of every Christian to be reunited with the true church of Christ? If you do not want this unity, what do you want? Unity with Rome, pray for it. Only when we are under the authority of the Holy Father will there ridiculous arguments cease in the Church!

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

We have n o cardinals. Sorry ’bout that.

Robert Ian Williams
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Robert Ian Williams

Have you been checking up on me Andrew…I obviously rattled your Cage. However I try and love my fellow man and woman and DO NOT “ABHOR” anyone. I have many friends and relatives who are Anglican and evangelical and I still get on with them well. I would like to be your friend, Andrew. A true friend always tells you the truth. I do hope this website will let me point out the double standard being meeted out by evangelicals…especially over marriage. They claim to defend it, and yet I actually believe seriously undermine it. When I see Sydney diocese… Read more »

Pluralist
Guest

“So what’s wrong with me showing they are wrong ?” david wh “The Catholic Church has the answer!” Robert Ian Williams I wonder when the institutional split has taken place whether liberals like seen here and hard evangelicals and traditionalists also seen here will post on each others blogs – just to irritate. I post at times on Fulcrum. I make it clear that I am an outsider. I’ll make points and I’ll have meaningful debates. But I don’t go there to tell them they are wrong – it is their space, and I remain conscious that (by over posting)… Read more »

Pat O'Neill
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Pat O'Neill

“Erica, do you not want a true unity with the rock of Peter? Surely it is the wish (or should be) of every Christian to be reunited with the true church of Christ? If you do not want this unity, what do you want? Unity with Rome, pray for it. Only when we are under the authority of the Holy Father will there ridiculous arguments cease in the Church!”

Aha! Mark Wharton is not even an Anglican! Should have guessed.

Sorry, my friend, we gave up belief in the “Holy Father” (other than our father in heaven) nearly 600 years ago.

Fr Mark
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Fr Mark

Robt Ian Williams: I think that was a very well-written reply to Andrew Carey. And I think you are right to point out the double standard in sexual morality from the Conservative Evangelical side vis a vis divorce/gay people. The RC view is at least logical, if equally harsh on everyone. The Con Evos reserve harshness exclusively for the not-like-them, which I find very unpleasant and unChristian.

Andrew Carey
Guest
Andrew Carey

“I would like to be your friend, Andrew. A true friend always tells you the truth,” said Robert Ian Williams.

How utterly creepy. Thanks, for the offer, but no thanks. Is this the same kind of friendship you and your group offered to Catholic voters when you warned them of ‘eternal hell fire’ if they voted for candidates who supported abortion?

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

“Erica, do you not want a true unity with the rock of Peter? Surely it is the wish (or should be) of every Christian to be reunited with the true church of Christ? If you do not want this unity, what do you want? Unity with Rome, pray for it. Only when we are under the authority of the Holy Father will there ridiculous arguments cease in the Church!” Oh dear, where do we start! The true church of Christ is the body of all believers. Roman Catholic Christians are already my full brothers and sisters in Christ, although, sadly,… Read more »

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

Well, Fr Mark, I’m not quite so sure. “A true friend always tells you the truth” – this assumes that you don’t know the truth, that the friend does and that you really ought to respond and change your views after you’ve been told. There’s a real imbalance in a relationship like that and I don’t think it quite deserves the term friendship. My good friends acknowledge that I may see things differently. Because they know I don’t arrive at my views lightly they respect them even if they don’t share them. They offer their views of truth tentatively, and… Read more »

Robert Ian Williams
Guest
Robert Ian Williams

Fr Mark is always gracious..and Erica perceptive….thank you….as for Andrew , I am sorry my going the extra mile was not Biblical enough for you…

Fr Mark
Guest
Fr Mark

Erika: yes, of course, I don’t follow the Roman view on sexual ethics/ gender issues, otherwise I wouldn’t be an Anglican. But I do think it has the merits of being more thought-out and systematic than the scapegoating hypocrisy of Con Evangelicalism, which is really no more than trying to preserve taboo and prevent doctrinal development at all costs by random literal application of biblical texts. There are, though, Robt, many refugees from the harshness of the RC system who find their way into the Anglican Church. There are, in particular, a lot of disenfranchised and dissatisfied RC women right… Read more »

Lapinbizarre
Guest
Lapinbizarre

An interesting twist re the San Joaquin situation – a documented statement from Bishop Schofield from the 1990’s, describing himself as “a cured homosexual”. Be interesting to see how this plays with the crowd that bayed for Jeffrey John’s blood.

http://my-manner-of-life.blogspot.com/2007/12/schofields-ex-gay-closet.html

JPM
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JPM

I think that Robert raises a legitimate point that the evangelicals’ happy embrace of serial polygamy is at odds with their claimed desire to safeguard Biblical morality. (Of course, I can understand why the Careys would rather not talk about this.) All this talk of “orthodoxy” really is about the no homos rule. That is why, as Robert points out, the more-Calvinist-than-Calvin faction is willing to hop into bed with the more-Catholic-than-Benedict faction. They can overlook one another’s heresies so long as the homos are kept in their proper place. If the past is any guide, though, once the “realignment”… Read more »

Fr Mark
Guest
Fr Mark

Well put, JPM.