evangelical differences

Covenant has an article, sparked by the Wycliffe Hall dispute, which discusses the differences between open and conservative evangelicals in England, mostly from an American perspective.

See “Open Evangelicalism”, the Wycliffe Hall Labor Dispute, and Our Theological Divide by Craig Uffman.

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Cheryl Va. Clough
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I think the paper overstates some souls “openness”. There have been souls who appear to be “open” and listening, but when push comes to shove, they are as blind and deaf as their more conservative ilk. At one point Craig Uffman referred to “…a habit made possible by the gift of the Spirit but which can only be learned through participation in the community of persons pledged to Christ as Lord”. This postulation ignores God’s tendency to put aside souls specifically to challenge and rebuke the prevailing paradigms. E.g. John the Baptist, woven by Holy Spirit in the womb, who… Read more »

Pluralist
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http://pluralistspeaks.blogspot.com/2008/01/theological-divide-and-liberalism.html

The problem for the Open Evangelical is that whilst they want to keep talking, and risk others being involved in decisions, GAFCON and crew get on with it. The Open people are right, of course, for talking to others, if not about inclusivity, but they are being out-manoeuvred by their one time mates.

Emily H
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Emily H

Craig Uffman of Covenant and +Matt Kennedy of Stand Firm, a very conservative US blog, have recently engaged in a discussion of the Wycliffe controversy and Ruth Gledhill’s article that I found instructive. It is far too long to post here so I will just post a portion, in this post some of Uffman’s comments, in the following Kennedy’s Here is the link: http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/9026/Covenant Craig Uffman: Let’s be quite clear on this point:  Covenant does not endorse or ally with those who, in spite of the Windsor Report’s constraints, continue to advocate same-sex blessings or ordination of gays in their… Read more »

Emily H
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Emily H

Here are +Matt Kennedy’s comments: Matt Kennedy: Yes, I have always maintained that only Canterbury determines who is in communion with Canterbury. And by every measure most bishops in the CCP, save those who remain in TEC, are not in communion with Canterbury. Nor, to my knowledge, do they support a Canterbury centered communion unless Canterbury determines to discipline TEC. There is no participation of or faciliation of or communion with heretics that is in any way comparable to what is promoted at Covenant…common cause, participation, support and communion with those who actively promote and push for Ssb’s. [63] Posted… Read more »

Ford Elms
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Ford Elms

“the dispute is about what Scripture teaches us about how we are to interact with our neighbor when we have profound differences over doctrine grounded in that authority.” Am I right in assuming from this that their idea of the neighbour with whom they are to interact does not include anyone who isn’t an Evangelical? After, surely this question has been before the Anglican Communion for a number of years. Why are they only posing it now? Note also the emphasis on discipline of TEC, that these people need to see TEC punished in order for them to be satisfied… Read more »

poppy tupper
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poppy tupper

Johnson, for sport perhaps, or from the spirit of contradiction, eagerly maintained that Derrick had merit as a writer. Mr. Morgan argued with him directly, in vain. At length he had recourse to this device. “Pray, Sir, (said he,) whether do you reckon Derrick or Smart the best poet?” Johnson at once felt himself rouzed; and answered, “Sir, there is no settling the point of precedency between a louse and a flea.”
Boswell: Life of Johnson

Cheryl Va. Clough
Guest

Poppy, you inspired me Isaiah 45:9-12 ““Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker, to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground. Does the clay say to the potter, ‘What are you making?’ Does your work say, ‘He has no hands’? Woe to him who says to his father, ‘What have you begotten?’ or to his mother, ‘What have you brought to birth?’ “This is what the LORD says—the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker: Concerning things to come, do you question me about my children, or give me orders about the work of… Read more »

Robert Ian Williams
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Robert Ian Williams

I keep saying it, the open evangelicals and the closed ones all hide the fact that they cannot agree on what the Bible says about heterosexual marriage, divorce and re-marriage. To admit this , would destroy their anti-homosexual agenda and their argument that the Bible is clear and self-interpretating on all moral issues.

drdanfee
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drdanfee

Many thanks to PoppyT and CherylC. You go girls. Two things about the dilemma of open evos vs. closed evos strike me. Firstly, one part of the evo communities really is getting more overtly weaponized towards another. I had a fairly strong hunch this would have to happen, since weaponizing doctrines presumes targets and the evangelical targeting of the target peoples. Jesus came to take pot shots at sinners, that much seems so clear as to be theologically incapable of evo dispute. Only some true and real portion of the evos, however, can rest assured that it is no longer… Read more »

Cheryl Va. Clough
Guest

Drdanfee Now it is your turn to inspire! Jeremiah 23:1-6 ““Woe to the shepherds who are destroying and scattering the sheep of my pasture!” … the God of Israel, says to the shepherds who tend my people: “Because you have scattered my flock and driven them away and have not bestowed care on them, I will bestow punishment on you for the evil you have done,” declares the LORD. “I myself will gather the remnant of my flock out of all the countries where I have driven them and will bring them back to their pasture, where they will be… Read more »

JCF
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JCF

“Note also the emphasis on discipline of TEC, that these people need to see TEC punished in order for them to be satisfied speaks volumes. It certainly illumines the attachment of some Evos to PSA. For them it would seem, there can be no peace, no reconciliation, without punishment.”

Another spot-on analysis, Ford (hope you’re working on a book! 😉 )

Christopher Shell
Guest
Christopher Shell

Hi Ford- You question whether ‘beliefs on sexuality define heresy’. No-one has ever said they do. Sexuality happens to be the area where modern society is most adrift from the Bible (or one of the areas where it most is). It is therefore automatically going to be the case that Christians will speak out on that particular matter at this time and in this society. In a time & society where the key discrepancies from Christian standards were in other areas they would speak out on those (and indeed they already do). It is clear that speaking out on one… Read more »

Erika Baker
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Erika Baker

“is illegitimate to assume a worldview where various ‘sexualities’ are ‘on offer’ without showing awareness of the fact that so many societies have got by without this concept. It is a very short step from using the word ‘sexuality’ to saying that different ‘sexualities’ are permissible – and that is indeed precisely why people use the word” Please explain to me why a committed Christian like you continues to lie here in public? Ford, more than anyone else, has told you in heartbreaking detail how he found himself to be gay, how he prayed for years that he might be… Read more »

Ford Elms
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Ford Elms

“No-one has ever said they do.” See the thread titled Advent Letter Rumbles On. Unfortunately, the link to the AM statement is not working, but you can read my exerpts from the piece in the discussion. “Sexuality happens to be the area where modern society is most adrift from the Bible (or one of the areas where it most is).” Really? What about the homeless people one steps over every day? What about government policies that keep the poor in poverty and are supported by fundamentalist Christians? What about Christian support for an evil war of aggression justified by lies?… Read more »

Ford Elms
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Ford Elms

“It (sexuality) is the one that is most often spoken about currently only because it is the one that most are currently guilty of: simple as that.” I can’t get this out of my mind. Do you really believe this? We live in a society that scorns spiritual poverty, that scorns meekness, that seems to be more interested in causing people to mourn than relieving that mourning. Where hungering and thirsting after righteousness are defined as judging people who do not practice a strictly defined chastity, where making peace is defined as traitorous, where purity of heart is defined much… Read more »

JPM
Guest
JPM

Erika, it’s OK to lie when you do it for Jeeee-zus!

Cheryl Va. Clough
Guest

I’m with you Ford on this one. But don’t forget that their indifference to poverty and suffering is simply one symptom of their complete contempt for this planet and its occupants. They believe that their Jesus places them above and outside of this planet and its occupants’ wellbeing. Actually, no. If they are occupants of this planet then they are honor bound to support the intent of core covenants, most especially peace. They need to go back and re-read the bible. Peace is defined as respect and safety for all beings, an end to violence and accusations, and provision and… Read more »

Sarah
Guest
Sarah

Back to Wycliffe: Fulcrum has posted a very interesting link to a site reporting Richard Turnbull’s recent visit to the Reformed Seminary in Orlando (http://inthylight.wordpress.com/2008/01/16/richard-turnbull-speaks-at-rts-orlando-on-the-state-of-evangelicalism/). It appears that he is unashamed about his tactics in “trying to call the Anglican church back to her Reformed heritage”, and in making Wycliffe “a strategic international center for Evangelical orthodoxy.” Hasn’t he just made Wycliffe a strategic international centre for Evangelical infamy? (Infamy, infamy – they’ve all got it in for me …)

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“Evangelical orthodoxy”

Isn’t this an oxymoron? Given that many (?most) repudiate a fair number of things that have been considered Orthodox Christianity for 2000 years, how can there be an “Evangelical Orthodoxy”. I know, same old drum, but still no explanation.

Robert Ian Williams
Guest
Robert Ian Williams

Curently on the stand Firm site they are debating baptism, and the acrimony between the Anglo-Catholic ” orthodox” and the Evangelical
“orthodox ” is showing.

Just imagine what will happen at GAFCON if the deceptive united front of these self proclaimed ” biblical Orthodox”cracks!

Pluralist
Guest

http://www.pluralistspeaks.blogspot.com/

A couple of leading comments about Richard Turnbull and Wycliffe (ie top and scroll down).

Christopher Shell
Guest
Christopher Shell

Hi Cheryl- I am not part of any ‘they’, and nor are you. Each person is an individual. You will have never met, and will never meet, any person that has the same configuration of opinions that I have – nor have I ever met any person who has the same configuration of opinions that you have. Now, guys, since honesty is on the agenda, why ignore the fact that I said that sexuality is ‘one of’ the areas where modern society is most adfrift of the Bible. You correctly identified the other such areas, and wilfully assumed (on no… Read more »

Erika Baker
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Erika Baker

Christopher “To say that people are more likely to believe there is a smorgasbord of options available in a society where this concept is used than in one where it is not is also pretty undeniable” I might concede that you’re willfully ignorant rather than actively lying, although it’s a fine line because the willfulness is there. Pretty undeniable is that historically, homosexuality was a punishable criminal offence, so of course many people would not “use” this option of the “smorgasbord” you believe exists. The fact that we are no longer so ignorant of the true nature of sexuality and… Read more »

Fr Mark
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Fr Mark

Christopher: your suggestion is that legal “toleration” of gay people encourages people to be gay who would not otherwise be? I’ve just been reading A.L. Rowse’s book “Homosexuals in History”, which is a survey of well-known historical figures who were gay. It served to remind me how shameful the history of their treatment in Britain is, compared to many other European countries. We have persecuted and executed many thousands of gay people over the centuries (including the hanging of an Anglican bishop for having sex with another man in the 17th c). I think that is a terrible record, and… Read more »

Christopher Shell
Guest
Christopher Shell

Hi Erika- Again, that’s not the point. I repeat: all people have always had various urges. Some have urges to commit crimes. Some have urges to harm children. Some have urges to shoplift. Some have urges to betray their spouses. Some may have urges to feed their cornflakes into their ear, rather than into the orifice for which they were biologically intended. (Maybe it feels nicer that way.) And so on. There is not a person alive who does not know what it means to resist an urge. Your initial misunderstanding was to say that I was unaware that Ford… Read more »

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

Fr Mark I don’t think many conservatives have a lot to say about the harsh treatment of gays in the past. You only have to read how little they protest about the harsh treatment of gays in many non-Western countries today, even within the church. If pushed, they might agree that they personally wouldn’t opt for such harshness, although that doesn’t mean that the sin (used synonymous with crime here), is any less sinful (criminal). Some have the decency to admit that being gay is just one of those afflictions people can be born with and which they have to… Read more »

Ford Elms
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Ford Elms

“Each person is an individual.” This is heterodox. The faith tells us that we are more than just ourselves, that we are part of a community. I get your point, we shouldn’t stereotype groups. But you seem to me to be straying towards a Protestant induvudualism here that is just not orthodox. “So why continue to speak as though this is an either/or?” Because you make it appear so: “Sexuality…most adrift from the Bible” “…most are currently guilty of: simple as that.” Do you believe homosexuality is something that one feels and that one can if one wishes choose one’s… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“Ford had testified to having these urges” I most certainly have not testified to “having urges”. I have told you I AM something, that has been the experience of my life. You have chosen to ignore that and instead believe a lie. I read your beads a long time ago, but thought your obvious lack of scientific knowledge had led you astray, that you had fallen for the propaganda of people like Cameron because it seemed like good science to you, and fit what you already believed. Even your refusal to accept what someone trained in science told you about… Read more »

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

Christopher You’re making a category error here. We all have urges, that is not the question. Having urges (sexual or otherwise)is a physical phenomenon and has nothing to do with one’s innate being as such. The difference is that in terms of sex, some can only satisfy these urges with a partner from the same sex, others only with a partner from a different sex. What we’re talking about is the fact that relationships are primarily about love not about sex, and that homosexual people are innately unable to LOVE people of the other sex. The love they do feel… Read more »

Fr Mark
Guest
Fr Mark

Christopher: being gay is not about giving in to some unpleasant urge, and it is not sensitive or accurate to compare it with shoplifting, is it? I live very happily with my partner, and am an Anglican, indeed a priest: there is no contradiction involved in that, except for some very loud people who were evidently entirely ignorant of our existence until recently. They are the ones who have the problem and succumb to the temptation to sin when they start screaming at us, not those of us who live in a stable faithful loving way. It’s time to get… Read more »

Christopher Shell
Guest
Christopher Shell

Hi Ford- Re crime rising or falling, there are millions of possible different time spans and locations one can cite, and unfortunately a lot of people cite the ones that back up their preferred position. My position has always been that the crucial seachange took place at or around the ungodly legislation of the late 1960s, as all kinds of stats seem to indicate – crime figures before and after this seachange included. I am speaking of the UK here. You will find by checking my earlier comments that my position on the Cameron article is not as you say:… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“I supsect that many of those who genuinely believe there is choice are probably at least bisexual themselves and have made a real choice for themselves.” Good on ya for this! The idea that my sexuality is about a whole welter of “urges” from which I may choose the “normal”, righteous heterosexual path or the evil, rebellious gay one is foreign to me. I have always assumed that heterosexuality is the same. So I find it odd when a hetero makes these kinds of claims. I have to wonder, is this thought, so alien to me yet so natural to… Read more »

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

“(4) An honest interlocutor would surely (!!) respond to my challenge: ‘If this is not the correct general statistical picture (that being homosexual is so high risk as to be arguably higher risk than smoking), then what is?’ -“ Lifestyle, Christopher. Unprotected sex with multiple partners. Drug addiction. Alcohol addition. Not being homosexual, but chosing an unhealthy lifestyle. Many of these go hand in hand with living in a society that despises you for how you were born, that does not allow you to be integrated into their society on the same terms that straights are. That accords you no… Read more »

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

As for the “urge” to love, to give my whole self to another person, to look after them and be looked after by them until the end of our lives, to be there for one another at all times, to share life’s burdens and life’s joys, its tears and its laughter, to pray together, to praise God together – I sincerely hope and pray that I will never ever lose that urge.

Whether you or anyone else can see the beauty of it or not.

poppy tupper
Guest
poppy tupper

erika, i know this will categorise me as a sixties person with no taste, but i always liked this, even though i knew it was a bit of modern invention. i think you’ve obeyed the first part in your discussion with christopher, don’t you think it’s time to pay attention to the words at the end? As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story. Avoid loud and aggressive persons; they are vexatious to… Read more »

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

Poppy
thank you!!
Of course, we have these conversations not only with the people we’re addressing on these pages, but also with all those who merely read the threads.
So although you’re undoubtedly right, I doubt I have enough willpower to remain quiet for long….huge failing of mine!…

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

Christopher, Erika was referring to ‘eros’, not ‘agape’, as you well know. I doubt you think Christians are called to erotic love of “many people of both genders”. I was referring to data you quote, I know you didn’t research it. Stop playing with words. You cite “the bulk” of scientific evidence, yet you don’t actually give references. After months of my asking, you finally cited Cameron and one other cource for your “data”. Unprotected intercourse spreads STD’s not any particular sexuality, and Erika’s explanation to you about this is clear and valid. A monogamous gay man is as safe… Read more »