THINKING ANGLICANS

press coverage of Pittsburgh

Upated Friday evening

The Church Times has Pittsburgh diocese votes to secede from Episcopal Church by Pat Ashworth.

In the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette there is Minority recognized as ‘true’ Episcopal Diocese by Ann Rodgers.

The Pittsburgh Tribune-Review has Episcopal Church recognizes loyal parishes by Craig Smith.

Friday evening

Episcopal News Service has Pittsburgh Standing Committee fills vacancies, seeks Presiding Bishop’s assistance by Mary Frances Schjonberg

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Ford ElmsCheryl Va.David H.Joseph T. BusfieldErika Baker Recent comment authors
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ettu
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ettu

Napoleon once said (to paraphrase)” ..and now the drawing room talk will begin and that is what will be remembered as history” In much the same vein one can see the subtle spin in one newspaper putting quotes around “true” and emphasizing minority whilst the other uses the word loyal in it’s banner. Despite these carefully chosen words the facts remain that the Duncanites have left and the remainder will be purer and stronger for it. The despicable act is the way Duncan has willfully chosen to gum up the way forward by clinging to worldly possessions rather than taking… Read more »

Robert Ian Williams
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Robert Ian Williams

In the nineteenth century the Evangelicals within the Episcopal Church defected en masse in 1873. The movement eventually dwindled to a few thousand..it was a tragic mistake. I rather feel Bishop Duncan has made the same false move.

penwatch
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penwatch

Robert Ian Williams is absolutely right. It is characteristic of the whole of North American Christianity that it is in essence congregationalist. The sense of catholicity is weak as Christianity moves in tandem with the competitive capitalist market. It is easy therefore for American schismatic groups, like Bishop Duncan’s, to break away and after while they settle into small separate churches. See for example: http://anglicansonline.org/communion/nic.html There you will find a long list of such traditional/orthodox/anglican/etc/etc churches. History will show this period to be a defining one in the emergence of a defined world Anglicanism as one that is conciliar, confident… Read more »

David R. Lyon
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David R. Lyon

Quite agree with Robert Ian Williams…The awesome joy of the Anglican way , is that up until recently, theological differences have never split
us from the love and intercourse of being in a “larger” family …

Father Ron Smith
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Father Ron Smith

“The Episcopal Diocese of Pittsburgh (Anglican) called her (Bishop Katherine’s) decision irrelevant”. – article: (Ann Rodgers, Pittsburgh Post Gazette). In this pericope of her article on this thread, Ann Rodgers refers to the departing schismatics as ‘The Episcopal Diocese of Pittsburgh, quote: (Anglican)’. What she might have said, instead of ‘Anglican’ was, more appositely ‘South-Conal’ This would more clearly indicate the true extent to which the Dissenters might claim to be a member of the world-wide Anglican Communion. It may just be that this grafting onto to the vine of the Southern Cone might not be seen as a valid… Read more »

Cynthia Gilliatt
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Cynthia Gilliatt

Don’t forget the old story about the person stranded on an island for years and years.

Finally a ship comes, and the rescue party sees three huts. They say to the castaway, “This hut is obviously your living place, but what are the other huts?”

The answer: “This nearer one is my church. The other one is the church I used to belong to.”

Robert Ian williams
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Robert Ian williams

Contrast Pat’s CT balanced reporting and that of George Conger in the CEN…it is almost laughable.

Charlotte
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Charlotte

David R. Lyons, I wish you had been right when you said “The awesome joy of the Anglican way , is that up until recently, theological differences have never split us from the love and intercourse of being in a “larger” family …” But theological differences have led to splits in the past: between Calvinist Dissenters and Anglicans in the 17th century; between Methodists and Anglicans in the 18th. There have been splits over the practice of infant baptism; splits over what happens in the Eucharist; splits over allowable church vestments and liturgies; splits over the understanding of Scripture. It… Read more »

Robert Ian Williams
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Robert Ian Williams

The Benefits of Evangelical defection. In the US, during the 19th century the Episcopal Church grew through Christians rejecting more Protestant denominations… With the Evangelicals moved out the Episcopal church was largely able to avoid party strife…which was rocking the Church of England. It was a blessing….meanwhile by 1990 there were only 6,000 Reformed Episcopalians. Interesting when separated from ECUSA the Reformed Episcopal Church ( REC) nearly tore itself apart over whether ministers should wear black scarfs. It revised the 39 articles to 37…only recently reversed because of high Church refugees from TEC …who have split the REC and caued… Read more »

Father Ron Smith
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Father Ron Smith

“It is also interesting that most of the high church dioceses are riddled with former Roman Catholics, many of whom are re-married divorcees who could not secure annulments. What interesting folk ..you Anglicans are” – (RIW) Thank you Robert Ian Williams for your wisdom. Your true colours are showing. I suppose the real catalyst for this outburst is the fact that there are ‘former Roman Catholics’ (apostates from your new-found religion?) among those who now populate the ‘High Church dioceses’ within the C.of E., whom you now refer to in this post. Dear me, Robert, your whole world must be… Read more »

Robert Ian Williams
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Robert Ian Williams

Dear Ron, I thought my comments were helpful.. I am pointing out that the Evangelicals left the Episcopal church in the nineteenth century and left it in peace.devoid of their litigatoons and schismatic spirit.. it was only in the 1960s that they came back, with institutions like the Trinity Episcopal Schol of Ministry…that is what lies behind CANA and the Pittsburgh schism.
Will some one please stand up and defend me!

Ford Elms
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Ford Elms

RIW, I agree with yout comments on Evangelicals, but, I’m a self confessed anti-Evangelical bigot trying to mend his ways. However, I have also tried to avoid wading into your spat with Fr. Ron, not necessarily successfully. You left Anglicanism and went to Rome, and from what you say it wasn’t out of love of Rome and acceptance of what Rome teaches as much as it was out of hatred/disappointment/hurt of Anglicanism. I sympathize, I still have some sense of it, and there was a time I was singing form your hymnbook. Fr. Ron seems to be reacting to your… Read more »

Erika Baker
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Erika Baker

Ford

“I’m a self confessed anti-Evangelical bigot trying to mend his ways”

If you’re serious about that, you could do worse than to start here.

http://radical-evangelical.blogspot.com/2007/04/evangelical-or-not-evangelicalthat-is.html

It’s a short thread but contains good info on further reading.

Joseph T. Busfield
Guest

RIW,

In your comment “The Benefits of Evangelical defection” missed a couple of points. One relatively minor. The REC adopted 35 Articles of Religion, not 37.
(www.trecus.net/downloads/35art.pdf).

The second problem was an error of omission. The new bishop of the Free Church of England – Evangelical Connexion is a CONVERTED former Roman Catholic priest. He has published articles declaring the error of his former ways until saved by the Grace of God through Jesus Christ.

JTB

Cheryl Va.
Guest

Thanks for the link Erica. Her response to Turnbull is more gentle than my own and well considered. Turnbull’s suggested four marks of what makes an Evangelical were depressing: – Supreme authority of Scripture for all matters of faith and conduct – Doctrinal marks – the heart of which is – Substitutionary Atonement – Personal relationship with a personal God – Evangelism (as opposed to ‘mission’) Nothing in there about a loving God. Nothing in there about faith before works or law. Nothing in there about God’s rolling out of Creation. Nothing in there about respect for the prophet/prophetic works.… Read more »

Ford Elms
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Ford Elms

“He has published articles declaring the error of his former ways until saved by the Grace of God through Jesus Christ.” Because everyone knows that Jesus taught the Gospel to His Disciples for three years, they preached the Gospel to others, then, for some reason it just disappeared until, 1500 years later, some men in Europe began reading the Bible in their own languages and suddenly the Light of the Gospel sprang forth for the first time in a millennium and a half. That it was the True Light was shown by the fact that it barely resembled anything that… Read more »

Ford Elms
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Ford Elms

Erika, thanks! Cheryl, my sentiments exactly. But, the blogger doesn’t think this way. I look forward to reading more. What I am currently asking is how anyone can claim that non-Evangelicals do not have a personal relationship with God, or consider that mission and Evangelism are not both sides of the same coin, especially given what Scruptiure says about doing the will of the father and letting one’slight shine, etc. That and this whole business of Substitutionary Atonement being central. I look forward to experiencing more of the thoughts of an Evangelical who does not seem to need the Law… Read more »

David H.
Guest

I rather enjoyed RIW’s brief, historical summary of evangelicalism in the Anglican world. And as Ford commented above, “I agree entirely that the modern rise of Evangelicalism has brought dissension with it. How could it do otherwise?…”

I also quite agree that the mindset of the Trinity Episcopal School for Ministry, and the priests they graduate, is behind a great deal of the schismatic mischief in TEC these days.

So Robert, would that count as a defense ? 🙂

Cheryl Va.
Guest

Ford The blogger is nicer than I am. My job is not to make friends, but either to heal this world or ensure that all souls are provided suitable dwellings in what comes next. What some solo scriptural scribes have forgotten is that everything (and I do mean everything) comes from God. So God can be found in animism, paganism, buddhism, islam…. God is just and God does not show favouritism nor partiality in Law. Therefore all souls will be fairly and compassionately dealt with. (After all, to treat one camp with compassion and all others with wrathful vengeance would… Read more »

Ford Elms
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Ford Elms

“So God can be found in animism, paganism, buddhism, islam…”

I firmly believe this, so did the Fathers. Didn’t Augustine say there’s nothing new in Christianity, it’s there in paganism somewhere? Everybody got some of the Light till it was fully revealed in Christ. I can’t wait for the consevos to jump on this as some kind of pluralism. Reject the Fathers and pretend to be “orthodox”. How fun!