Thinking Anglicans

Apostolic Constitution Anglicanorum coetibus

Updated Monday lunchtime

The Apostolic Constitution providing for Personal Ordinariates for Anglicans Entering into Full Communion with the Catholic Church has been published by the Vatican today.
Apostolic Constitution Anglicanorum Coetibus
Complementary Norms for the Apostolic Constitution Anglicanorum coetibus

The Vatican has also issued this press release which includes both the above texts and an article The Significance of the Apostolic Constitution Anglicanorum Coetibus by Fr Gianfranco Ghirlanda, SJ, Rector of the Pontifical Gregorian University.

Damian Thompson has published the texts in the Telegraph.
Apostolic Constitution: Vatican publishes the details
Apostolic Constitution: the full text

There is a Church of England response: Apostolic Constitution – Bishop of Guildford responds

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Martin Reynolds
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Martin Reynolds

Still some important matters left unclear. But it just might mean that married laymen will continue to be eligible for priesthood and not just those who are ordained when they cross over. One is left wondering just what this says about Anglican Orders ……. surely ALL Anglicans are in the lay state? There is no suggestion that the ordination all must submit to is “provisional” … No Prayer Book so … no idea what constitutes Anglican Patrimony ….. The new Ordinary (if already a married bishop) will be ordained as a priest but (with permision from HF)will still be able… Read more »

BillyD
Guest

The part about former Anglican bishops not ordained as RC bishops being able to ask Rome for permission to use “the insignia of the episcopal office” is a little mystifying. Do they foresee former bishops using miter and crosier? And why?

dodgey_vicar
Guest
dodgey_vicar

Hmm,
why is no one arguing that the C of E is the current expression of the historic inheritance of faith indigenous to England which goes back to at least the 4th Century?
Contextual theology expressing faith within a particular cultural or multicultural setting is an authentic expression of faith. Losing the Anglican identity (with a nod to Anglican liturgy ie in practice 1662 not common worship) impoverishes the body of Christ.
Unity is not uniformity.
Are there any Anglican bishops who will speak up for Anglicanism as expressed in the C of E?

Simon Kershaw
Admin

‘Do they foresee former bishops using miter and crosier? And why?’ Yes, presumably that is just what they envisage. Bishops who secede will essentialy be able to continue to act as bishops in everything except specific episcopal rites such as ordination, consecration of a church and so on. As priests in the RCC are permitted to confirm (I understand, perhaps with the permission of the bishop) then these Ordinaries will be able to continue to confirm if they wish to do so. So in practical terms hardly anyone would see any difference in the way they related to priests and… Read more »

BillyD
Guest

Thanks, Simon. I knew that abbots and abbesses wear use miter and crosier, but hadn’t heard of common or garden variety priests being given this honor. Your explanation makes sense.

It’s also reminiscent of Orthodox “mitered archpriests” and such, I suppose.

Mark Wharton
Guest
Mark Wharton

What beautiful generosity from the Holy Father and Holy Mother Church….
Perhaps the General Synod should imitate this generosity……………..

Wilf
Guest
Wilf

Ordinary jurisdiction is not limited to bishops in the RCC. Presbyters, as Simon says, are capable of confirming after having been granted the correct faculty. The most important item in the constitution, is to my mind, the possibility of the ordination of married men who are not already Anglican priests (e.g. current ordinands). However, I think that before cheering too loudly, the experience of the Eastern Catholic Churches should be heeded. Whilst it is possible for married men to be ordained as priests in those churches special permission is needed where Eastern Catholics are found alongside Latin ones (e.g. in… Read more »

Wilf
Guest
Wilf

Simon refers to ‘priests and congregations who secede’.

I do not see that congregations can secede from the CofE. It would be ultra vires for a PCC to take a vote of secession from the Church of England and before any Anglicans can take up the offer of membership of an ordinariate they must be individually received into the RCC and thus leave the CofE completely.

Robin
Guest
Robin

I just don’t get the point of Anglicanorum Coetibus. Anglican bishops, priests and deacons are still, according to Rome, merely unconfirmed laypeople. If those crossing the Tiber believe that their whole ministry so far has been nothing but a sham and a delusion, why would they want any kind of special treatment?

Ed Tomlinson
Guest

Let me help you then Robin…. it might not be spelt out but is clear to see between the lines. Rome professes our orders utterly null and void for it finds our many theological voices under one umbrella bewildering and unhelpful. Whilst they privately find orthodox Catholics very pleasing they decry evangelicals with no belief in real presence and liberals who defy Catholic doctrine as described in the catechism. This move illustrates that they want the few they would like to recognise but cannot due to the others….and this explains why in practice many crossing the tiber HAVE had their… Read more »

BillyD
Guest

It does seem that a lot of people who up til now have been pretending to be Roman Catholics (and no, this does not include all Anglo Catholics, or even all those that will take the Pope up on his offer) will now be faced with the prospect of being pretend Anglicans!

Wilf
Guest
Wilf

Not wishing to hog this discussion, but…

BillyD mentioned “mitered archpriests”.

There have been mitred archpriests in the latin church too, particularly the administrators of the major churches in Rome. I don’t think they have them any more, though.

john
Guest
john

‘Are there any Anglican bishops who will speak up for Anglicanism as expressed in the C of E?’

I do like that sentiment, DV. There is far too much pusillanimousness and defeatism. My part of the world in my youth, the commonest Protestant/Unionist sentiment was: ‘xxxx the Pope’. Dreadful as it was, it’s better than all this ‘the Holy Father’, ‘his Holiness’ nonesense.

Athol
Guest
Athol

What i want to know, can those of us who were Anglicans and then became Catholics in the past join these ordinariates or is it only for the new batch?

Father Ron Smith
Guest
Father Ron Smith

“It might not all be smooth running, and that’s before I get onto divorced and remarried lay people….” – Wilf, on Monday –

One wonders what will happen to the international Head of The Traditional Anglican Communion -Archbishop Whatshisname* from Australia. He is apparently divorced and twice-married. Will he be able to have his first marriage annulled secretly before being offered a mitred Ordinariate in the new sodality? (*Bishop Hepworth)

Clive
Guest

Athol, as I read it anyone baptized an Anglican can join the ordinariate. Former Anglican priests who have since been ordained as Catholic priests can be brought under the authority of the Ordinary with appropriate consents.

You and I could join if we chose. Here in Canada I think that’s unlikely. Those who want to be in the TAC already are -if people went to Rome solo here it’s because we didn’t find a home in the TAC.

Father Ron Smith
Guest
Father Ron Smith

“What i want to know, can those of us who were Anglicans and then became Catholics in the past join these ordinariates or is it only for the new batch? – Athol, on Monday –

But, Athol, why would you want to? Having already rejected Anglicanism as it has always been, why on earth would you want to join an Ordinariate, which is neither Anglican nor Roman – as they have always been? Or is this just nostalgia, and a longing for a bit of good old Anglican ritual?

Paul
Guest
Paul

It’s in the document, Athol. No, those who are already Roman Catholics can’t join.

ruidh
Guest
ruidh

I would think this was funny if it weren’t for real. The RCC thinks that we have men playing at bishop and they are willing to let them continue to wear the finery and play some more. This is so profoundly insulting.

bain
Guest
bain

Athol:

Yes, “the lay faithful originally of the Anglican tradition” who wish to join the new Ordinariates may do so after fulfilling various requirements. Article 5 of the Complementary Norms provides for exactly this. Those baptised as Catholics, however, are not ordinarily eligible “unless they are members of a family belonging to the Ordinariate”

BillyD
Guest

“The RCC thinks that we have men playing at bishop and they are willing to let them continue to wear the finery and play some more. This is so profoundly insulting.”

Yes, but I will bet you dollars to donuts that they will have people take them up on the offer.

RoddyFN
Guest
RoddyFN

If Rome wants the misogynists and narrow minded of the Anglican Communion they’re welcome to them. It’s up to Rome to sort out the the who, what, when, how and where of this situation, not the Anglican Church. My personal belief is that those that head Romewards will find their eccentricities regarded in a colder light than in the Anglican Communion, and that ultimately there will be pressure for them to conform to standard RC doctrine.

I wonder what the sect will be called. ‘CatholicLite’ or ‘I Can’t Believe it’s Not Rome’ would seem apposite.

Arthur
Guest
Arthur

Just a few comments: Mitred Arch-priests belong to the Latin tradition as well, and still exist in some parts of the world such as Malta, but they do not carry a crosier. Monsigniori wear episcopal non-liturgical attire minus the pectoral cross. It is likely that the concession given in the Apostolic Constitution is an extension of this privilege given to esteemed clergy. Rome doesn’t change on essentials: its attitude remains the same apropos of Anglican clergy as always it has since Apostolicae Curae; and all clergy who qualify, including bishops, will be ordained absolutely, not conditionally, into the Catholic priesthood.… Read more »

Clive
Guest

Father Ron, I believe in addition to being divorced, +Hepworth is also a former Catholic priest, and this will exclude him from exercising sacramental ministry in the Ordinariate.

However, all the Bishops of the TAC made it clear at the outset that they were willing to step down if required in order to achieve the communion for which they petitioned Rome, so I assume that’s what he will do.

Howe

BillyD
Guest

“but those to have gone over to Eastern Orthodoxy have been “re-baptised” as well!”

Incorrect. Not all EO jurisdictions baptize “heretics” who convert. Some receive them by Chrismation (the analog to Confirmation).

mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)
Guest

“Why do Catholic-minded Anglicans prefer communion with Protestants than with Mother Church?”

I don’t. Unfortunately the Church Universal does not permit me to be in communion with Her, whereas the Anglican set-up hesitates to make such high walls against others…. I find it painful when I worship with Christians whose regard for the Blessed Sacrament appears to me to be casual, but I hold back from judging or de-Christianising them.

JCF
Guest
JCF

“The Church of Rome does not recognise the term ‘Roman Catholic’.”

Conversely, Arthur, many find it increasingly difficult to recognize the Church of Rome (under JP2 and B16) as legitimately “Catholic”.

Fr. Daniel Kelley
Guest

I hope you don’t mind a Catholic priest giving his two cents. The RCC does not recognize the episcopal line of succession in the Anglican Church, not because we don’t like you, but rather the line of episcopal succession is all important to us. That line had been broken after the separation of the Anglican Church from the Catholic Church. The RCC does allow for male Anglican clergy to be ordained Catholic clergy if there are no impediments.

Father Ron Smith
Guest
Father Ron Smith

“Unfortunately the Church Universal does not permit me to be in communion with Her, whereas the Anglican set-up hesitates to make such high walls against others…. ” mynsterpreost –

Actually, mynsterpreost, as an Anglo-Catholic I feel that I am already part of the Church Universal – although I do recognise that some Roman Catholics (like Robert I. Wlliams and the Pope) do not. I, too, am sad that some Anglicans still have problems with the reality of the Presence of Christ in the Mass, but perhaps that’s preferable to some Christians who don’t even celebrate the Holy Communion.

MJ
Guest
MJ

@ Fr Kelley – “The RCC does not recognize the episcopal line of succession in the Anglican Church, not because we don’t like you, but rather the line of episcopal succession is all important to us. That line had been broken after the separation of the Anglican Church from the Catholic Church.” I’m sorry Fr Kelley but the ‘line’ was most certainly not broken. You should take the time to read “Saepius Officio” the “Answer of the Archbishops of Canterbury and York to the Bull Apostolicae Curae of H. H. Leo XIII”. http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgbmxd/saepius.htm Objections on the grounds of matter, form… Read more »

Laurent Marc Côté
Guest
Laurent Marc Côté

“No Prayer Book so … no idea what constitutes Anglican Patrimony …”

Since 1987/2003 “The Book of Divine Worship” exists. Being elements of the Book of Common Prayer
revised and adapted according to the Roman rite
for use by Roman Catholics coming from the Anglican Tradition contains the complete texts of the liturgy approved for the Anglican Use. This is a large and beautifully bound volume. It carries an Imprimatur, and it is an historic addition to the wealth of Catholic spirituality. But, … “The Book of Divine Worship” is currently out-of-print. I do have the complete text, coming from Internet.

Father Ron Smith
Guest
Father Ron Smith

There is, in the Franciscan Tradition in both Roman Catholic and Anglican Churches, mention of a winderfully ecumenical call to prayer, used every Friday, beginning with the words: “Here, and in all our Churches….”

Arthur
Guest
Arthur

Billy, can you give me examples of EO churches that have merely chrismated? The Greeks and the Russians re-baptise Anglican converts, not recognising any of the sacraments conferred by Anglican clergy. David R: Why do you imagine that the Universal Church does not permit you to be a member? Fr. Ron: you may well feel that you are part of the Universal Church, but so do the Methodists, Presbyterians, and a host of other Protestant sects that recite the Nicene Creed in their profession of faith. What makes you any different to them? Is the Church a mere theory? or… Read more »

Arthur
Guest
Arthur

MJ: Perhaps you might find the following links informative on why the Holy See did not accept the attempted rebuttals of York and Cantuar:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01491a.htm

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01641a.htm

Happy reading!

Father Ron Smith
Guest
Father Ron Smith

“Fr. Ron: you may well feel that you are part of the Universal Church, but so do the Methodists, Presbyterians, and a host of other Protestant sects that recite the Nicene Creed in their profession of faith. What makes you any different to them?” – Arthur, on Friday – Not quite the same things that make you, an R.C., different from ‘them’, Arthur. However, there are some similarities between us. Like, for instance. 1. The theory of Apostolic Succession. 2. The ‘real Presence’ of Christ in the Mass. 3. The honouring of Our Lady as Mother of Christ. The main… Read more »

BillyD
Guest

“Billy, can you give me examples of EO churches that have merely chrismated? The Greeks and the Russians re-baptise Anglican converts, not recognising any of the sacraments conferred by Anglican clergy.”

The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of the Americas, the Orthodox Church in America, and the Antiochian Archdiocese all normally receive previously baptized converts by chrismation.

Previously in Russia converts were also accepted by chrismation, as in the case of the Empress Alexandra.

http://www.assumptionaz.org/about/sacramental_information/320

http://www.oca.org/PDF/official/clergyguidelines.pdf

http://www.antiochian.org/node/19144

Ceremoniar
Guest
Ceremoniar

And someone had better tell those churches in the northeastern and midwestern American dioceses, who have names such as “St. Patrick’s Roman Catholic Church” on their signs, websites, letterheads and parish bulletins.

Les Leeder
Guest
Les Leeder

Surely Anglo-Catholics are Anglicans rather than Roman Catholics because there are some Catholic doctrines they don’t accept, such as the Infallibility of the Pope, and because there are some things they believe that the Roman church rejects, such as the idea that Anglican priests are real priests. Will these convictions be reversed on the day they are received into the Roman fold? How can these mental gymnastics be performed with a clear conscience?

Christian
Guest
Christian

To BillyD and Ceremoniar: It’s not necessarily a matter of the Church recognizing the title “Roman Catholic Church” as like you have pointed out Billy D, because the Vatican has been known to use that term. However, the official terms to refer the Church of Rome would be ones like the “Catholic Church” or the “One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.” Orthodox groups would be against using these terms though to refer to that specific church that emanates from the city of Rome. Therefore, the term “Roman Catholic” is a concession (evidenced in the cited Vatican documents from BillyD) to… Read more »

Tom B
Guest
Tom B

Catholic Churches in the NE & MW of the US call themselves for example St. Patrick’s Roman Catholic Church to distinguish themselves from say St. Gregory’s Ukrainian Catholic Church or St. John’s Maronite Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has also used the expression in ecumenical dialogues to be diplomatic.

Ceremoniar
Guest
Ceremoniar

To Christian and Tom B–I am aware of the reasons that the Catholic Church has used the term “Roman Catholic Church” at times. I was merely responding to Arthur’s assertion that such was not the case.

Stephen
Guest
Stephen

But, Athol, why would you want to? Having already rejected Anglicanism as it has always been, why on earth would you want to join an Ordinariate, which is neither Anglican nor Roman – as they have always been? Or is this just nostalgia, and a longing for a bit of good old Anglican ritual?
Fr. Ron Smith.

That’s not how it would be, Ron.
The Apostolic lineage would be restored under the Ordinariate. Which would then allow it to celebrate the Sacraments in communion with the Catholic Church, through an Anglican Rite form.
Personally, I hope it happens and soon.