Thinking Anglicans

Women bishops – press reports

Martha Linden of the Press Association via The Independent Church faces fresh turmoil over women bishops

Christian Today CofE gears up for debate on women bishops at July Synod

Ruth Gledhill and Jack Grimston in the Times Draft law opens way for first women bishops by 2014

Jonathan Wynne-Jones in the Telegraph Church faces turmoil over plans for women bishops

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RevL Robertsevensongjunkie (formerly cbfh)Rev L RobertsFather Ron SmithChris Smith Recent comment authors
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Chip
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Chip

Typo in title of second item: for Christianity Today read Christian Today

Chris Smith
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Chris Smith

After reading such beautiful comments in support of the two women to be consecrated as bishops in Los Angeles, it is disconcerting to me, that it will still take three and half years for The Church of England to consecrate its’ first women bishops. I know the clocks of church bureaucracy move slowly in every Christian community, but it seems so painful a process for all concerned. I hope the Church of England Synod does the right thing by eliminating even the discussion of so called “flying bishops”. This would be so very unfair and un-Christ like to inflict this… Read more »

Father Ron Smith
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Father Ron Smith

“I know the clocks of church bureaucracy move slowly in every Christian community, but it seems so painful a process for all concerned.” – Chris Smith on Sunday – You are right, of course Chris. However, it has been said that only the devil wants us to rush into important decisions. Perhaps this is why your own branch of the Church (R.C.) is taking so long to accept women to be co-equal with men as bearers of the image and likeness of God. HOWEVER. The speed with which successive Popes have regressed from the visionary hopes of Blessed Pope John… Read more »

Lynn
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Lynn

I often wonder if those against WO have ever been a regular communicant at a church served by a female priest. I’ll even say the best situation is a parish church with the luxury of more than one priest, with the ordained of both sexes serving. I like the idea of parish members requesting alternative oversight. It may well be that much of this fuss about female bishops isn’t coming from the average person in the pew. I guess we will find out soon enough. Meanwhile, I hope those wishing to cross the Tiber realize that’s not a decision to… Read more »

Father Ron Smith
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Father Ron Smith

“They claimed that the proposals were designed to ‘wipe out’ those on the Anglo-Catholic and evangelical wings of the Church who do not believe it is in accordance with biblical teaching for women to be bishops.” – Jonathan Wynne-Jones, Telegraph – The anti-women bishops sodality making such claims are obviously not aware of the fact that – though their prejudices have not been totally accepted by this proposed legislation allowing women to be ordained bishops – their tender consciences have been given some leeway. In the proposal that any parish which balks at the idea, they may, with the permission… Read more »

john
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john

Father Ron, FiF people have explained again and again why the procedure you outline is not acceptable to them. You take no account of their objections, and you sneer at them as people. It’s lazy, and it is also offensive. You probably know that I am just as much in favour of women bishops in the C of E as you are and just as eager that it should happen quickly. But I also think that the FiF arguments are not formally refutable, that they fall acceptably within the range of Anglican thinking, that the disruption and unhappiness of their… Read more »

Chris Smith
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Chris Smith

FIF people should always be treated with sympathy and compassion as well as toleration. No argument there. The problem lies in the basic failure of these people to grasp the solid and healthy theological grounds for women as equal to men in service to the Church as priests and bishops. It has taken nearly two thousand years for women to gain a foot in the door of these roles in the Church. Flying bishops is not a healthy or dignified option. It treats women as second class citizens. This is not acceptable. I believe it is better for all concerned… Read more »

Ed Tomlinson
Guest

Praise God that some real liberals still exist John. Thank you for having taken the time to not only listen to us and understand our arguments ut also to realise that it is possible to co-exist when we do honour each other’s positions. What a shame yours is a lone voice on this site…as i suspect it will be come July.

evensongjunkie (formerly cbfh)
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evensongjunkie (formerly cbfh)

Well gee john, next you’ll see parishes in the AC that are/need to be LGBT-free and require that in their leadership structure.

See where that road leads?

Pat O'Neill
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Pat O'Neill

“Women bishops, yes, of course; adequate structural provision for dissenters, yes, of course. That is the Anglican way, and, funnily enough, many FiF people, whom one might otherwise have considered to be absolutists, have come to see that it is so, and that it is better than any of the alternatives. We should treat them with sympathy and compassion and not just tolerate them but allow them to flourish.” In regard to both the first and last sentences…for how long? For how long must women priests and bishops be forced to go about their callings as “second-class clerics” in the… Read more »

Adam Armstrong
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Adam Armstrong

If the FiF people have been willing to stay and live with women priests and Flying Bishops, why should they not be willing to do so with women bishops? After all, the difference between tolerating women as priests but not as bishops is difficult to understand.

evensongjunkie (formerly cbfh)
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evensongjunkie (formerly cbfh)

I should say as an addendum that separate but equal doesn’t work. The tension will always be legitimized in the structure; and it will ultimately be unfair to both parties. Both FiF types and women will be seen as second-class citizens.

Nom de Plume
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Nom de Plume

“adequate structural provision for dissenters…. That is the Anglican way”

Sorry, it seems to be the Church of England way, but I suggest it is not the Anglican way. It is an innovation which has opened the door to all manner of abuse, to demands for “alternative oversight,” to incursions across borders by foreign bishops and Primates. Structural firewalls designed to protect dissidents were well-intentioned, but they have undermined catholic order and created havoc. It is time the Church of England accepts that its innovation did more harm than good, and ends it as the Church in Wales has.

Father Ron Smith
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Father Ron Smith

In reply to John, on Monday: as ‘evensongjunkie’ has already pointed out, those if F.i.F. who happen to be gay – and yet opposed to women in the sanctuary – what would happen if anti-gay parishioners (and there may be some in Anglo-Catholic parishes in the U.K.) were to insist on their right to exclusive ministry from a non-gay male priest/bishop, and one who had not been ordained by a gay (M/F) bishop? I suppose that they would claim that this is not a matter of ‘core doctrine’. Would that make it so? It seems to me that most Anglicans… Read more »

Erika Baker
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Erika Baker

Adam the difference between tolerating female priests and female bishops is not difficult to understand. From an FiF point of view, once a female bishop starts to ordain priests, it will not be long before it becomes impossible to work out which male priest was validly ordained and which wasn’t. If one of those priests ever becomes a bishop, all male priests ordained by him will, in the yes of FiF, be invalidly ordained – and you end up with a terrible muddle and the prospect of having to set up complex systems to work out which priest is valid… Read more »

Perry Butler
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Perry Butler

Erika is right that it becomes more and more difficult to find any sort of accommodation that isn’t, in fact, a church within a church…which is esp difficult in a parochially ordered national church.As it is a FIF church doesnt mean a uniformly FIF congregation.Its sad when people feel they have to leave, but it isnt exactly new..Separatists in the 1580’s+, historic dissent in 1662, non-jurors in 1689, unitarians in the 18c, methodists in the 1790’s, Tractarians from 1845…etc. it seems to me that the problem was that many in FIF quickly interpreted extended episcopal care into alternative episcopal oversight… Read more »

Adam Armstrong
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Adam Armstrong

Once you start playing the game of determining whose ordination is valid (and I do believe in Apostolic Succession), it becomes more a matter of ecclesiastical “bloodlines” and less a matter of trusting and relying on the Holy Spirit. Declaring someone’s orders valid or invalid is as old as the Church itself, much to our shame. You would probably want a “genealogical chart or certificate proving ordination by males” for every priest in the Anglican Communion so we would know whether or not their sacraments are valid. I think we can trust ion the grace and power of the Holy… Read more »

Ed Tomlinson
Guest

With you Erika. So why do many in the liberal wing not only actively hate us for staying but also mock us when we look elsewhere for our future? Just witness the condemnation of the flying bishops on previous posts for daring to have spoken with the Vatican! It seems I am unable to stay and yet- if I try and move my parish into the ordinariate (so far over 90% favour this route) I am accused of being a deserter and told I can expect no hold, no building, nothing. Seems I am just hated and worthy of contempt… Read more »

john
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john

Erika, I profoundly disagree with you. (1) You don’t seem to give any weight at all to ‘the counter-arguments’. (2) You ask: ‘Where will it all end?’ This is a version of ‘the slippery slope’ argument, which has no logical force, although it can, I admit, have practical force. (3) You (and others like you) seem to imply (can you really mean it?) that similarity and difference are constituted only in the present issue and similar issues and in the structures which deal with them. This is nonsense. I do not agree with FiF people about women priests and bishops;… Read more »

evensongjunkie (formerly cbfh)
Guest
evensongjunkie (formerly cbfh)

“…. Ed, it is true, may well have decided to depart, but elsewhere I think there is much yearning within FiF ranks for continued co-existence.” Then stop fighting city hall. Do you think for a moment “we” thought of bailing out for Rome/Geneva/wherever when the Jeffery Johns incident erupted? That some of us traditionalists felt like when sung matins were taken away by “more catholic” bishops in the 1980’s here in the states? The advent of the 1979 (American) BCP? You didn’t see most of us throwing tantrums and threatening to take the property. Yes, my slippery slope argument is… Read more »

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

John I’m not aware that I offered an opinion on whether FiF should be accommodated or not. I thought I had simply sketched why it is a very difficult question with pros and cons on either side. As it happens, I am completely torn about the issue. I do feel for Ed and people like him, I do not believe they are misogynistic and I do not think they deserve the smug bile directed at them. On the other hand, as a bisexual woman I have often enough born the brunt of the church’s official view on homosexuality and I… Read more »

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

Adam I think the conversations on this thread and others like it are a little cross purpose. I hear your arguments, as it happens, I share your views. But this is yesterday’s debate. Today we are talking about accommodating people who do not share our theology, and simply repeating our beliefs doesn’t further this conversation. We have to accept that there are irreconcilable beliefs. That is the starting point for trying to find a solution. It would be good if we could simply accept that there are people who are genuinely deeply hurt and unsettled by the way the church… Read more »

Father Ron Smith
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Father Ron Smith

“It seems I am unable to stay and yet- if I try and move my parish into the ordinariate (so far over 90% favour this route) I am accused of being a deserter and told I can expect no hold, no building, nothing” – Ed Tomlinson – Ed, the actual ‘ability to stay’ still rests with you. If you decide to depart that is your own decision, no-one is actually forcing you to become either a Roman Catholic or a member of the R.C. Ordinariates. Whatever ‘John’ may say in your favour and in your defence, it does not alter… Read more »

john
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john

Erika,

Sorry I misunderstood you.

Best.

Adam Armstrong
Guest
Adam Armstrong

Thank you, Erika. I have no problem with being accepting and compassionate and allowing accomodation for different views. That’s not my issue. I do mind when we hear the same old reasons for it going unchallenged. The “pipeline” theory of ordination with the assumption that only male hands can consecrate valid sacraments may be sincerely held, but it is impossible to let it pass as a solid argument.

Ed Tomlinson
Guest

Oh Ron you really do need to grasp some very basic facts. 1) I am NOT choosing to make celibacy discipline and women priests doctrine…that is the OFFICIAL position of the RC church itself. Hence the Syriac tradition has always had married priests and is in communion with peter quite without problem. 2) Saying this all rests with me is very dishonest. I was ordained into a church which had promised provision for oppponents…that is now being withdrawn. In effect the church is breaking a promise and not me. 3) Why does my parish belong to the diocese? It was… Read more »

Father Ron Smith
Guest
Father Ron Smith

“2) Saying this all rests with me is very dishonest. I was ordained into a church which had promised provision for oppponents…that is now being withdrawn. In effect the church is breaking a promise and not me.” – Ed Tomlinson – Ed. Are you saying that you offered yourself for ordination into the Church of England – on the basis that your opposition to women priests would be permanently accommodated? I do find that hard to believe, Ed. I had thought, I must confess, that the provision of ‘alternate oversight’ in the church of england was officially declared to have… Read more »

Chris Smith
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Chris Smith

Ed: Your parish property belongs to your diocese because the Anglican Church is a hierarchical church. It is held in trust by the Anglican Church for the benefit of the whole. You are sounding more and more like a child who no longer wishes to play in your fellow Anglican’s sandbox. I’m beginning to wonder if you will be happy anywhere. You have several issues to deal with. You might wish to begin with this simple idea: Love They Neighbor

David Malloch
Guest
David Malloch

Chris,

Can you provide a legal basis for your claim that property belongs to the Diocese. My understanding is that it is held in trust by the Vicar & PCC for the benefit of the entire community (anglican or not/christian or not)?

Ed Tomlinson
Guest

motes and beams Mr. Smith, and I think you will find that the point of livings etc is that, unlike in America, power is actually vested in the parish and PCC Ron the act of synod was intended for a period of reception which we were assured would be over when ALL the universal Church (ROME included) found a common mind. That seems to have been conveniently forgotten. What do you make of those supporters of WO who are publically admitting we have been betrayed? Why would they say this if it were not true at all? Even the Archbishop… Read more »

Perry Butler
Guest
Perry Butler

Bishop Pete Broadbent doesnt believe in male headship and nor do I, nor I suspect do the vast majority of C of E clergy and laity. In what sense therefore is it part of “the doctrine of the Christian faith as the Church of England has received it” to quote the question put to the potential deacon/priest in the ordinal.It may be a doctrine held by some IN the C of E but I cant see how it can be a doctrine OF the C of E..so do we have to pay that much attention to the Reform clergy? And… Read more »

Adam Armstrong
Guest
Adam Armstrong

Ed-In Canada, Anglo-Catholics have lived with the ordination of women as priests and bishops and no one has left with their property. No parishes have left at all, although some individuals may have gone to Rome or joined a breakaway group called the Anglican Catholic Church, now connected to the TAC and on its way to Rome after thirty-five years. At present, the more charismatic/fundamentalist groups are the consituency of the group that is now part of ACNA. They have tried to take their property and have been opposed and have lost in court. No diocese could, in conscience hand… Read more »

Malcolm+
Guest

Ed, David et al – the parish property in the CofE is indeed held by a set corporation for the benefit of the whole community. t is, nonetheless, a part of “the Church of England by law established,” and your pretense that a majority vote of the PCC can alienate the property from “the Church of England by law established” demonstrates either utter detachment from reality or utter dishonesty.

Ed Tomlinson
Guest

Adam I am not in Canada. As has been said the church belongs not to the Diocese in England. I might argue my Church was stolen by those who entered swearing oaths to a faith they did not believe and then changed it from within to move it ever further from whence it came and the majority Christian voice in the world today.

Chris Smith
Guest
Chris Smith

David: The legal basis that a Diocese owns the property is past precedent. The Diocese is in communion with its’ bishop or Archbishop who are a unit of The Church of England. It would be an act of outright THEFT if a priest or even a bishop tried to take that property with him to form another Church or become a part of an existing Church. In North America, entire fundamentalist breakaway diocese have tried this unethical move and they have failed in court case after court case. It is one thing to leave the Anglican Communion or to join… Read more »

Father Ron Smith
Guest
Father Ron Smith

“I might argue my Church was stolen by those who entered swearing oaths to a faith they did not believe and then changed it from within to move it ever further from whence it came and the majority Christian voice in the world today.” – Ed Tomlinson Ed. Now you have me puzzled. What are you actually saying here? Are you saying, in fact, that ‘your Church’ (the Church of England, or your parish church?) was stolen…etc.? One might see this as your plea that the Church of England as now constituted stole your ‘Church’ (building?) from the Roman Catholic… Read more »

Rev L Roberts
Guest
Rev L Roberts

‘…it will not be long before it becomes impossible to work out which male priest was validly ordained and which wasn’t. If one of those priests ever becomes a bishop, all male priests ordained by him will, in the yes of FiF, be invalidly ordained – and you end up with a terrible muddle and the prospect of having to set up complex systems to work out which priest is valid and which isn’t.’ Sorry, but I find this hilarious ! Am I very naughty ? Do i need to be shriven ? What kind of ‘god’ do they subscribe… Read more »

Rev L Roberts
Guest
Rev L Roberts

Those of us whose Orders are declared to be invalid by FiF could wear some kind of uniform or symbol — e.g. maybe a coloured star could be sown on our attire and vesture ?

evensongjunkie (formerly cbfh)
Guest
evensongjunkie (formerly cbfh)

Those of us whose Orders are declared to be invalid by FiF could wear some kind of uniform or symbol — e.g. maybe a coloured star could be sown on our attire and vesture ?”

Hmmm, how about a mitre with an upside down cross extending from beneath it? Nice girlish pink….

RevL Roberts
Guest
RevL Roberts

Hmmm, how about a mitre with an upside down cross extending from beneath it? Nice girlish pink….

Posted by: evensongjunkie (formerly cbfh) on Monday

Well how about Laetare rose pink – but I can’t see FiF surrendering it ! …