Reform: Where Now On Women Bishops?

Rod Thomas Chairman of Reform, writes:

The General Synod

At the General Synod’s meeting in York earlier this month, I moved an amendment to the proposed measure on women bishops which, had it passed, would have enabled parishes to opt for a ‘complementary bishop’ when it came to key issues like selecting ordinands for training, disciplining clergy and appointing incumbents. There was a good debate but the amendment was lost in the subsequent vote. The voting figures were:
For Against
Bishops 10 28
Clergy 52 124
Laity 73 118

These figures are significant because they show that more than 1/3rd of the House of Laity felt the present draft Measure to be in need of major revision…

27
Leave a Reply

avatar
27 Comment threads
0 Thread replies
0 Followers
 
Most reacted comment
Hottest comment thread
11 Comment authors
Robert Ian Williamschenier1Simon SarmientoPantycelynPerry Butler Recent comment authors
  Subscribe  
newest oldest most voted
Notify of
Pat O'Neill
Guest
Pat O'Neill

Well, that’s one way to spin it. You might also say that two-thirds of the laity felt the measure required no revision.

Graham Ward
Guest
Graham Ward

“These figures are significant because they show that we got hammered in all three houses” might have been a more honest statement (hammered wasn’t the first verb that came to mind).

Robert Ian Williams
Guest
Robert Ian Williams

Of course as I pointed out before Reform are already operating as a Church within a Church

there is an excellent letter in this weeks Church of England Newspaper, of an open evangelical who finds himself in a parish taken over by a Reform cleric. There is no provision for him.

It sad that the Archbishop of Canterbury is more like Nev Chamberlain in the way he deals with these folks. Archbishop Carey to give him his due gave very short shrift to Charles Raven.

Deacon Charlie Perrin
Guest
Deacon Charlie Perrin

“I moved an amendment to the proposed measure on women bishops which, had it passed, would have enabled parishes to opt for a ‘complementary bishop’”

Why that would be great! To have the guy (of course) with the pointy hat come in and say “Oh what a lovely church you have.” or “What a moving liturgy that was.” or “What a talented choir you have.” or “I’ve never enjoyed myself so much.” etc.

It’s too bad that he spelled “complimentary” wrong.

Tobias Haller
Guest

More creative arithmetic to snatch victory from the maw of defeat.

And how does this square with those who lament that the laity and clergy even have a voice in the discussion?

chenier1
Guest
chenier1

Well, as Andrew Brown put it:

‘In fact it is taken fr granted by the vast majority of Anglicans in this country that no one nowadays could possibly read the Bible the way the Reform does. so I felt a short piece pointing out what they actually believe was worthwhile.’

I think he was right; Reform’s success in continuing to infiltrate our church depends on people not realising that their model of marriage is that demonstrated by Peter and Iris Robinson…

Robert Ian Williams
Guest
Robert Ian Williams

Reform do not like mitres..when Jesmond ( a leading Reform parish in Newcastle upon Tyne ) used to invite their bishop ( he is now banned)to confirm he was always told not to wear a mitre! Jesmond refuses to have their bishop.Thy import ones from abroad. They never invited the rural dean to preach as he was Anglo-Catholic. They license their own clergy. They started a church plant in Tom Wright’s old diocese. No cross can be placed on the communion service. In keeping with the practice of the evangelical wing of the C of E they throw away the… Read more »

Perry Butler
Guest
Perry Butler

R I Williams seems to take a perverse delight in telling us “how it is” in his former church. But I am pretty sure his description of Jesmond and other Reform parishes is largely accurate.For me, as a life long member of the C of E and a retired parish priest, the question is, how did we get into this situation? An evangelical parish that abandoned liturgy, defied its bishop, refused to honour its financial commitments etc would have been simply unthinkable 50 yrs ago.Is it simply that nothing can be done about it…a recipe for further fragmentation…or that “doing… Read more »

cryptogram
Guest
cryptogram

Perry, 50 years ago it was the Anglo-Papalists who behaved like that. Do you remember Eric Mascall’s verse “I am an Ultra-Catholic…”?

Plus ca change…

chenier1
Guest
chenier1

There is, of course, a considerable degree of hypocrisy involved; Jesmond puts a great deal of effort into trying to recruit from Newcastle University since it seems less interested in those of slenderer means. A recent sermon by Ian Garrett puts it thus: ‘But the other way we do that is through our welcome of internationals. Year by year, we seek to reach out to the thousands of internationals studying and living in Newcastle who aren’t yet Christians. But we also provide a spiritual home for those who are already Christians. And your commitment to that side of our church’s… Read more »

Nat
Guest
Nat

I wonder why no one addresses the wider issue of evangelism? It seems to me, from talking to many friends, that a great many people are so turned away by anti-women, anti-gay rhetoric, endless discussion seemingly going nowhere, and by squables over jurisdiction (if they stay around long enough to hear about it) that they will not go near a church. In my area, the mega-churches seem to prosper. But I wonder what the turnover is? Our Episcopal congregation is solid, even growing a little. But who counts the still larger numbers who are repelled by the simplistic, the exclusionary?… Read more »

Robert Ian Williams
Guest
Robert Ian Williams

Jesmond is not largely student, but draws a large number of everyday people. granted there is a middle class professional bias, but working class people are there too, and welcomed.

The congregation of Jesmond are sincere and devoted Christians. It would be wrong to portray them as a homophobic Taliban. There are inconsistencies in Reform, but I would prefer these persons to convert to Rome, than our so called Anglo-Catholic friends. They genuinely seek the glory of God.

Perry Butler
Guest
Perry Butler

But come on R I Williams they arent going to convert to RC ism are they? i suspect many of them think RCs arent Christians.A young Chinese student who wandered into my church shortly before i retired amazed me by talking of Christians and Catholics, which on further discussion turned out to be two different religions.

Pantycelyn
Guest
Pantycelyn

Perhaps I may be alone in thinking that reactionary Christianity is rending the church in deep and permanently damaging ways – but who will actually come to church in 50 years?

Nat

Posted by: Nat on Thursday, 22 July 2010 at 5:29pm BST

I incline to this view myself Nat. Bit I’m almost past caring, alas.

The encouraging thing is to see people’s spiritualities, developing in creative, life-enhancing, life-affirming ways – so many wonderful novels, poetry, music, film; and the resilience and courage of individuals and families, in the face of crises,such as illness and bereavement.

Robert Ian Williams
Guest
Robert Ian Williams

Perry in recent years there have been increasing numbers of converts from Evangelicalism, and as far as I can observe, they are much better Catholics than some former Anglo-Catholic converts.

Go to journey home EWTN and just listen

chenier1
Guest
chenier1

R I Williams I actually was quoting from a sermon preached at Jesmond in June of this year specifically mentioning the large amounts of money spent on the ‘thousands of internationals studying and living in Newcastle’ as well as ‘a spiritual home for those who are already Christians’. Can you point me to anything supporting your contrary claim? I am familiar with Jesmond because it tried to recruit my daughter who was a medical student in Newcastle; the approach was theologically crude and simplistic, but definitely did not mention the hard-core Creationism -not a plus point for a medical student-… Read more »

Robert Ian Williams
Guest
Robert Ian Williams

jesmond is not a cult but a dynamic loving Christian community. The vicar’s wife is a Doctor and a first rate one at that. In fact the congregation has dozens of doctors..all of them free thinking intelligent individuals. Chenier1 you completely stereotype male headship in the family. It is not overlordship. Furthermore you don’t have to be a six day creationist to be a member of Jesmond parish Church. I have only happy memories of Jesmond, and still have friends who worship there.

They never cut me off for becoming a Catholic.

chenier1
Guest
chenier1

RIW I do wonder whether you have ever bothered to look at what Reform really espouses: try looking at their website, which notes that Reform Trustees and Council Members sign each year the following three documents: 1. The Danvers Statement on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood http://www.cbmw.org/Resources/Articles/The-Danvers-Statement A small sample from Danvers, noting the need to oppose: ‘the increasing promotion given to feminist egalitarianism with accompanying distortions or neglect of the glad harmony portrayed in Scripture between the loving, humble leadership of redeemed husbands and the intelligent, willing support of that leadership by redeemed wives.’ which, naturally, leads in to: ‘wives… Read more »

Robert Ian Williams
Guest
Robert Ian Williams

ChenierI agree with Reform in all of these areas, except as a Catholic I believe the word of God also extends to the sacred tradition as orally passed down and safe gaurded in its interpreation by the living Magisterium. I believe only through that medium one can safely arrive at the meaning of Holy Scripture. Sadly Reform cannot agree as to what the Bible teaches as regards divorce because of sola scriptura…a man made doctrine of the reformation. The teaching of male headship is a Catholic teaching, although it has not been taught by the last three Popes…but it has… Read more »

chenier1
Guest
chenier1

RIW Really? So you believe, inter alia, that: ‘We further deny that scientific hypotheses about earth history may properly be used to overturn the teaching of Scripture on creation and the flood.’ You do realise that the Pope is not a six day Creationist, and that the Vatican says that Darwin was right? They won’t even sign up to Intelligent Design, much less the whole ‘Genesis and everything else in the Bible is literal truth’ hard-core Creationist stuff trotted out in the Chicago statement. They had a conference on it marking the 150th anniversary of the publication of Origin of… Read more »

Robert Ian Williams
Guest
Robert Ian Williams

The pope is entitled to his opinion on this subject, but until he officially defines it , it is his opinion. However as Catholics we have to believe in the common ancestry of the whole human race and original sin.

chenier1
Guest
chenier1

RIW ‘The pope is entitled to his opinion on this subject, but until he officially defines it , it is his opinion. However as Catholics we have to believe in the common ancestry of the whole human race and original sin.’ I was just reading a post on a later thread pointing out that you seemed to be profoundly ignorant of the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church; I suppose that it comes as no surprise to discover you magnanimously allowing the Pope to have his opinion, whilst being convinced that he is entirely wrong on such trifling details as… Read more »

Robert Ian Williams
Guest
Robert Ian Williams

I repeat the Catholic Church allows Catholics to interpret the creation, within a framework of non negotiables. I used to believe in theistic evolution, but I am increasingly less satisfied with it. I feel people discredit the creationists too swiftly.They are not backward hillbillies, and have the following of some erudite scientists. Remember Pope John Paul the second made some disastrous episcopal appointments and his Assisi event was so open to misinterpretation. I do not rank him as John Paul the Great. I also feel it will be a very long time before he is canonised. Evolution is not a… Read more »

Robert Ian Williams
Guest
Robert Ian Williams

The Pope is only infallible when he speaks definitively and officially on an issue of faith or morals. He is not like the Mormon prophet who claims to have a direct line to God. We do not regard his every thought and statement as de fide. When I was re-evaluating my Christian Faith, ( having found Anglicanism to be inadeqaute, contradictory and having no real coninuity) I looked objectively at Christianity in general. Could it be a deviation and heresy of Judaism. After all the Jewish people are the world’s most brilliant people. Could they be right to reject Christ.… Read more »

Simon Sarmiento
Guest

Please can we limit comments on this thread to the topic of the thread, i.e. what Reform thinks. Thanks.

chenier1
Guest
chenier1

I have been doing my best to do that, Simon, but one’s best may not be good enough. Interestingly enough, I entered into a discussion in another place about what Reform thinks. The person involved tried to claim that Reform is not hard-core Creationist, by pulling up the figleaf of a leaflet repudiating hard-core Creationism in support of that. What s/he failed to mention was that the leaflet said that the views of the person writing it were not those of Reform, which, of course, signs the hard-core Six day Creationist literal truth Chicago declaration every year. There is no… Read more »

Robert Ian Williams
Guest
Robert Ian Williams

Jesmond is certainly not a cult, and I find it appalling and sad you can make such a scurrilous
comment.