Thinking Anglicans

Ordinariate established by Pope

The following announcements have been made:

Holy See press statement about the Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham in England and Wales

Message from the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith

Statement from Keith Newton, First Ordinary for the Personal Ordinariate in Great Britain

Background information: Establishment of Personal Ordinariate

Other materials can be found via this page.

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Father Ron Smitha seeker after truthMarkBrunsonSpirit of Vatican IIJPM Recent comment authors
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john
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john

I don’t think I am particularly bigoted/particularly anti-RC. Nonetheless, the language employed – ‘the Decree of Erection’ – is deeply farcical and (surely) deeply misogynist.

Adam Armstrong
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Adam Armstrong

This will be spun many ways, especially by those who see this a capitulation to the “One True Church” and a triumph of conviction. There are those who will say that this is the answer to the evils of liberalism. Nevertheless, to be a bit more irreverent, or perhaps realistic, one cannot avoid seeing this event as part of the Papacy’s centuries-long campaign to win back the English Church, but this time on the backs of women, gays (well, maybe) and other undesirables. It seems somewhat absurd, yet true to the sense of repressed sexuality and the confusion and fear… Read more »

Someone
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Someone

Interesting — I wonder if Robert Crouse would have swum had he lived??

Tim Chesterton
Guest

“I can look back at over 35 years of ordained ministry with tremendous gratitude. The Church of England nourished me in the Christian Faith and it was within her that I discovered, as a teenager, my vocation to the ordained ministry which has involved service both in England and Africa”.

Sounds to me like he doesn’t agree with the RC position on Anglican Orders.

Peter Edwards
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Peter Edwards

‘The establishment of the Ordinariate is clearly intended to serve the wider and unchanging aim of the full visible unity between the Catholic Church and the members of the Anglican Communion.’ This – from Fr Marcus Stock – along with similar approving comments from existing RCs and others in the blogosphere – remains (to me) utterly bemusing, and not particularly amusing. Is this the new RC definition of Christian Unity: that all other Christians should become RCs? I thought we were agreed on our common baptism, by which we become Christian; that the terminal embarrassment of Apostolicae Curae had been… Read more »

a seeker after truth
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a seeker after truth

The language on here is emotive already. I am often puzzled by the type of comment from Adam Armstrong above which is both crude and offensive and asserts a level of knowledge and certainty which not even a Pope would be comfortable with. Clearly for Adam sex and sexuality is a major issue but for most of us it is just one aspect of what it is to be human. There is no point arguing the issues but can we please at least respect each others right to a different view and argue using reason and logic rather than abuse… Read more »

Richard Grand
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Richard Grand

I have also been a priest (Canadian Anglican) for 35 years and a Cathedral Canon. I have no sympathy for people who have had all the perks of office as bishops and the relative financial security of serving in the CofE who think that causing scandal and hurt is a good way to end their ministry, especially since retirement near and they have little to lose. They have fomented dissension in Anglican ranks and now will be trying to bring people with them. The reason: to get away from women, gays, and liberals. A noble one at that. I am… Read more »

Derek Gagne
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Derek Gagne

So the old men in the Vatican have gotten together with some old men in the CofE to ensure that they can keep women out of their club. Not their finest hour.

Richard Grand
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Richard Grand

As a letter writer to the Telegraph said, they were Anglicans pretending to be Roman Catholics and now they will be Roman Catholics pretending to be Anglicans. The more this seeps in, the more absurd it all seems.

Nom de Plume
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Nom de Plume

Curious that Keith Newton’s biography is listed under “Bishops”. The biography itself makes it clear that he is a priest, and not a bishop. As I understand the Ordinariate’s rules, he is ineligible for ordination to the episcopate as a married man.

Spirit of Vatican II
Guest

Do the Vatican ever give up? The Spanish bishops are aiming at a reconquista of Spain (where Catholics are being “persecuted” by the Zapatero dictatorship, which has banned auto-da-fe’s). The reconquest of England, as urged by Professor Eamon Duffy in his “Fires of Faith,” is another undying dream. Past glories is all they seem to think about.

a seeker after truth
Guest
a seeker after truth

Richard, the scandal is that the General Synod of the Church of England has gone back on its promise made in 1992 that there would be a continuing place for those of us who in conscience could not accept the innovation of Ordaining Women. Please remember, we have not changed our view we hold the traditional view but the Church of England has moved away from us. The GS had indicated through many votes that there will be no provision for the minority and the tone of GS discussions has turned extremely hostile towards us. The legislation to allow the… Read more »

a seeker after truth
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a seeker after truth

More generally, I am here, in the midst of it in London attempting to stay in the Church of England. The hatred and anti-Roman Catholic sentiment expressed by Anglicans on many of these blogs is deeply depressing particularly as the week of prayer for Christian Unity gets under-way. I wonder in what way some have you have worked with or intend to work with the largest Christian denomination in the World – the very rock from which we were all hewn.

Pat O'Neill
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Pat O'Neill

“Is this the new RC definition of Christian Unity: that all other Christians should become RCs?

Oh, please–there’s nothing new about that. Remember, according to the Vatican, the rest of us (of any denomination) don’t really belong to “churches”, just social organizations that pretend to be churches.

Simon Kershaw
Admin

Again the claim is made (this time by ‘a seeker after truth’) that ‘there will be no provision for the minority’. It is simply not true that no provision has been made for the minority. The draft legislation makes provision for those who cannot in conscience accept women priests or women bishops. It requires bishops to implement the code of practice in an acceptable local format. It ensures that no parish will be forced to accept a woman presiding at the eucharist if it does not wish to do so. This is pastoral provision, and it is proposed and made… Read more »

Adam Armstrong
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Adam Armstrong

To Seeker-These bishops are now nearing retirement and must have already considered where they will live and support themselves, even as CofE bishops. They would have looked before they leapt and will not be destitute. No doubt they have arrangements neither you nor I would know. As for your comments about anti-Roman sentiment, I have always had a high regard for the Roman Church and its clergy. What you are seeing is a predictable reaction from Anglicans who are now being portrayed as the offenders. The triumphalism of all of this, which went away for a few decades after Vatican… Read more »

Richard Ashby
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Richard Ashby

From the editorial in the Observer today (16 January 2011) It is only institutional religion that continues to regard women as second-class citizens. If Catholicism believes that recruiting a handful of renegade Anglicans who share its institutional misogyny will buttress its position it is mistaken. Meanwhile, those aspects of the church beneficial to the whole of society – its work for social justice, with the poor, the marginalised – are once again pushed into the background. Many British Catholics who want no part of this game of ecclesiastical power politics are left despairing. Those of other faiths or none, and… Read more »

Robert Ian Williams
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Robert Ian Williams

I think it is awful to say that a person who accepts the teaching of the Catholic Church that women can not be ordained is a misogynist.That would then include millions of women.

Men and women have different gifts and callings…its not a question of inequality.Its also not a question of power but of service.

Charlotte
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Charlotte

Speaking as an American member of the Episcopal Church, I have to say I take a different position on the Ordinariate from many who have posted here. I think the theological positions that have persuaded these Anglicans to join the Ordinariate are wrong — dead wrong. I agree that these converts may find the farther shore of the Tiber less appealing than it looks now, once they have been on it for a time. However, I respect the integrity of their choice, though I disagree with it. They are not doing what our own Dissenters have attempted to do. They… Read more »

Lapinbizarre
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Lapinbizarre

“For doctrinal reasons the Church does not, in any circumstances, allow the ordination of married men as Bishops.” St Peter’s mother-in-law? I Corinthians 9.5?

Pat O'Neill
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Pat O'Neill

“Men and women have different gifts and callings…its not a question of inequality.Its also not a question of power but of service.”

Then why is it that women’s call to service always puts them in a position of lesser power than that of men, in the eyes of the church?

Cynthia Gilliatt
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Cynthia Gilliatt

(“Broody Mary” and all that) – I hadn’t thought of her like that, but she probably did brood a lot … sorry, can’t resist, since I am also a great one to mistype in funny ways. Haste may make waste, but it also makes humor!

Erika Baker
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Erika Baker

Charlotte “Could that be where some of this is coming from? I was very struck by how near the surface the sentiments were.” For a group of people that is, of course, quite possible. A larger number of contemporary people, though, dislikes the Catholic’s immoral ban on condoms ( until recenty without exception), it’s rigid views of sex, divorce, contraception, gay people… all seemingly imposed without compassion and an awareness what real people’s lives are like. Contemporary people simply don’t believe in the idea that a small Magisterium of aged single men claims the supposedly God-given privilege of telling them… Read more »

Richard Ashby
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Richard Ashby

‘They are going, homeless and penniless…’. Charlotte – that is the position some would like us to believe but it just isn’t true. They have been paying into the Church of England pension fund (and maybe others if they worked in other areas before being ordained) and they will get out of it their pensions at the appropriate time in proportion to what they have paid in. Going to Rome doesn’t deprive them of their pensions any more than changing a job would. As for housing, we don’t know their individual financial circumstances. They undoubtedly will have lost the help… Read more »

a seeker after truth
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a seeker after truth

Thank you Simon for agreeing my points about the removal of Resolutions A and B and the rescinding of the Act of Synod ie the removing all of the present provisions most particularly the Act of Synod which Parliament insisted on as a condition for allowing the Measure to receive Royal assent. It is precisely this collective amnesia which has caused us to push for a strong, binding legal provision. Quite frankly, the General Synod has demonstrated that it cannot be trusted to keep to its word. At present, the Code of Practice does not exist – not even in… Read more »

Tim Chesterton
Guest

‘Unlike in the USA and Canada the clergy are not paid enough to be able to buy houses and build up savings’ I can’t speak for the USA but I can say that I live in one of the few dioceses in Canada where clergy are fortunate enough to be able to provide their own housing and are paid (somewhat) appropriately (I say ‘somewhat’ because the cost of housing has gone up 250% in my city in the last ten years, and my salary has certainly not kept up!) . One of the many differences between the C of E… Read more »

JCF
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JCF

“I wonder in what way some have you have worked with or intend to work with the largest Christian denomination in the World – the very rock from which we were all hewn.” {roll eyes} seeker, you might find more truth if you weren’t so busy engaging in spin. (And “largest Christian denomination”? The Gospel is not about the World’s Value of *market-share*!) Generally speaking, I agree w/ Charlotte here. The now-Ordinary crowd (and they WILL find themselves pretty “ordinary” in Rome, after all the extraordinary attention they received while remaining barely-nominally Anglican!) may, FINALLY, begin to live lives of… Read more »

Jerry Hannon
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Jerry Hannon

“a seeker after truth” wrote: “The hatred and anti-Roman Catholic sentiment expressed by Anglicans on many of these blogs is deeply depressing particularly as the week of prayer for Christian Unity gets under-way.” I am afraid that “seeker” is confusing the disdain of many of us for the self-perpetuating Roman Catholic hierarchy, with the Roman Catholic Church itself. As one who crossed the Tiber — in the opposite direction — thirty-four years ago, after eighteen years of well-indoctrinated Roman Catholic education, I have nothing but love and admiration for the good sisters, brothers, and priests — as well as many… Read more »

Adam Armstrong
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Adam Armstrong

Seeker said “I am often puzzled by the type of comment from Adam Armstrong above which is both crude and offensive”. I did say that I would be irreverent. Crude and offensive doesn’t make me wrong. I said nothing different than others here have said or has been said by various commentators. The issues of gender and sexuality are in the forefront of the reasons why there is an Ordinariate abd youcan’t sweep them under the rug. They were the biggest elephant in the room at Westminster Cathedral.

Nom de Plume
Guest
Nom de Plume

“”For doctrinal reasons the Church does not, in any circumstances, allow the ordination of married men as Bishops.” St Peter’s mother-in-law? I Corinthians 9.5?”

Clearly, the mention of St Peter’s mother-in-law does not prove that he was married. Maybe he was in a Civil Partnership. 🙂

Ducking and running….

Nom de Plume
Guest
Nom de Plume

“Unlike in the USA and Canada the clergy are not paid enough to be able to buy houses and build up savings”

As a cleric in Canada, let me say that the decision to be ordained has to date cost me, conservatively, $2,000,000. By the time I retire it will likely be closer to $5,000,000. I have no house of my own and live in substandard housing which has been in dire need of repair for the last 20 years or more. So don’t whinge about how much Canadian clergy are paid.

Bill Dilworth
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Bill Dilworth

“For doctrinal reasons the Church does not, in any circumstances, allow the ordination of married men as Bishops.”

Really? I thought it was simply a matter of discipline. What on earth are the doctrinal reasons?

Bill Dilworth
Guest
Bill Dilworth

“Sounds to me like he doesn’t agree with the RC position on Anglican Orders.”

You’ll notice he was careful to say “ordained ministry,” not “priesthood.”

Father Ron Smith
Guest

‘ As I understand the Ordinariate’s rules, he is ineligible for ordination to the episcopate as a married man.” Posted by: Nom de Plume on Sunday, 16 January 2011 at 4:59am GMT Don’t be too sure, nom de plume! In the Roman Catholic Church, the Magisterium makes the rules. They don’t have to consult with anyone but the Pope – certainly not any of the lower orders – to change any rule they like. Look at what has just happened. An Anglican married Bishop has been accepted into the Fold, ordained deacon and priest – all within a space of… Read more »

Hugh James
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Hugh James

I can appreciate that those priests who leave the Church of England or the Church in Wales for the Ordinariate will have to face some difficult and heart-searching questions about their financial position. They are not, however, leaving in abject poverty. The minimum stipend for a vicar in the CofE was £22,470 (in 2010). In the CinW it was £20,974, plus fees for occasional offices (unlike the CofE). The Website “payscale” http://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Country=United_Kingdom/Salary lists the average UK salariers for the following occupations:Office Administartor £16,137, Retail Store Manager £21,473, Personal Assistant £23,919. Clergy are not well paid, but many people earn less… Read more »

JPM
Guest
JPM

I’m with Charlotte–when compared to the antics of the so-called “orthodox” here in the U.S., the conduct of the ordinariate crew is the very picture of integrity.

I wish them all the best.

Spirit of Vatican II
Guest

“”a seeker after truth” wrote: “The hatred and anti-Roman Catholic sentiment expressed by Anglicans on many of these blogs is deeply depressing particularly as the week of prayer for Christian Unity gets under-way.”

“I am afraid that “seeker” is confusing the disdain of many of us for the self-perpetuating Roman Catholic hierarchy, with the Roman Catholic Church itself.”

Yes, I agree — I have noticed no anti-RC sentiment on this website, and only mild versions of the anti-Vatican anger that many Roman Catholics would express far more strongly. Anglicans are remarkably gentle, polite, tolerant and fair-minded people on the whole.

MarkBrunson
Guest

It is unimportant. England is all a-dither about the Ordinariate, which will be forgotten in a year.

The only reason they have press is *your* concern about a collection of gay-hating, over-privileged old men and self-loathing women have headed for Rome. This has been going on for ever, it’s just got the Old Bavarian’s clammy hand on it’s head. Frankly, it’s doubtful these people will be any shining beacon, as they don’t even have the poor excuse of “Just following orders;” once an agitator, always an agitator.

Let it die.

a seeker after truth
Guest
a seeker after truth

Hugh , the definitive source of such statistics in the UK is the Office for National statistics. From their report the median salary is £499 per week i.e. approx £26k http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=285 I’m not sure that the jobs you used for comparison would require a degree and several years of training and they would get overtime payments for being called out in the night to visit the dying and they are not required to live over the shop and deal with out of hours business on a regular basis. This is the life of the clergy, they knew it when they… Read more »

Father Ron Smith
Guest

” I wonder in what way some have you have worked with or intend to work with the largest Christian denomination in the World – the very rock from which we were all hewn.” – ‘seeker after truth’ – I’ve only just noticed this silly comment from a reputed ‘seeker after truth’. If that was really the case, you could not have repeated this myth about the Roman Catholic Church being ‘the very rock from which vwe were all hewn. Surely you have come to realise that no one but Jesus Christ himself is ‘Head of The Church’, as that… Read more »