Thinking Anglicans

Press comment on the Ordinariate

The Observer newspaper has a leader column, The faithful lose in this victory for misogyny.

There is also a news report by Peter Stanford under the headline
History overturned as Anglican bishops are ordained as Catholic priests.

Other news reports can be found here, and other comment articles are linked here (but not the Observer leader).

See also Photographs.

The Ordinariate was discussed on the BBC radio programme Sunday available from here. The coverage starts about 31 minutes in.

98
Leave a Reply

avatar
3000
98 Comment threads
0 Thread replies
0 Followers
 
Most reacted comment
Hottest comment thread
42 Comment authors
DougFather Ron SmithRichard GrandRobert Ia Williamsrobert ian Williams Recent comment authors
  Subscribe  
newest oldest
Notify of
Jakian Thomist
Guest

It’s been a while since I have read such nonsense as that contained in that Observer leader column. “Catholics are despairing” “victory for misogyny” – who writes this obviously ridiculous and motivated lark???

Everyone knows this is not misogyny (although mislabeling it as same and therefore debasing actual misogyny isn’t beyond those who feel disgruntled) and everyone knows that Catholics will continue to focus on social justice… isn’t it great that there now will be Anglican-use catholics helping them in their quest thanks to the wisdom and foresight of Pope Benedict?!!

robert Ian Williams
Guest
robert Ian Williams

I can’t belive this is a fruit of ecumenism as the Catholic establshmnt say. 500 ( maximum) people in an Anglo Catholic theme park..is hardly an ecumenical achievement.

I feel for the Catholic priests who have given up on family and marriage…to see these folks who have milked the Anglican system to the fullest waltz in the front door.

Laurence C
Guest
Laurence C

“Everyone knows this is not misogyny”

Please don’t speak for me. I think it is misogyny.

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

“everyone knows that Catholics will continue to focus on social justice…”

You mean like closing down adoption agencies because they’re not allowed to discrimminate against a potential miniscule number of would be gay adopters?

I’ve been following enough FiF blogs in the last few months, and once they stop talking high minded theology and comment more unthinkingly about Anglican women priests, their motivation for becoming priests etc., it is nothing but thinly disguised dislike and misogyny.

peterpi - Peter Gross
Guest
peterpi - Peter Gross

I agree with Laurence C: Misogyny it is. That and homophobia. Plus, a broader issue, one that covers women and gays. The Ordiniariate-seekers may feel they have the Truth, and the seekers are upset that others have the gall to think the others have the Truth also. One Lord, one faith, one baptism — One Truth. Their Truth. The Ordiniariate-seekers are men. They may feel that women can only have an approximation of the Truth, never the Truth itself. They’re still miffed at the Eve-and-the-serpent thing. And ignore (or applaud?) that when God called Adam to account, Adam’s first reaction… Read more »

Old Father William
Guest
Old Father William

And speaking of Truth. At a forum at a local university last year, I quoted retired Presiding Bishop Frank Griswold’s remark that we are situated in a universe where truth is progressive. The next Sunday, a prominent local Roman Catholic family came to our church, and they’ve never left. New discoveries in science, psychology, history, etc. help us to see the Bible through a continually changing lens. They wanted to be part of a Church that understands that.

Robert Ian Williams
Guest
Robert Ian Williams

Maybe my earlier comments on this particular posting were a bit rash and harsh. I think the Ordinariate will be small, but I do wish the people well. My prayers are with them.I do not think any thinking Anglican need feel threatened by it.This is hardly the reconversion of England.

I came across these words on the Ordinariate Portal…

The only puzzling thing about yesterday is why a Catholic would not wish to whole-heartedly welcome home his brethren in Christ and to lend his support to the extension of the Catholic Church in the UK.

They chastened me and made me think.

Counterlight
Guest
Counterlight

In this day and age, it sure looks like misogyny to me.
It seems to me that the increasing integration of women into more and more institutions other than the Roman Catholic Church makes the official reasoning for barring women’s participation in the clergy look increasingly arbitrary.

Richard Ashby
Guest
Richard Ashby

“Everyone knows this is not misogyny”

As one who has stood in gay bars and heard the invective from Anglican priests about women in general and the women in their congregations, I can assure you that mysogyny is alive and very well in the priesthood.

a seeker after truth
Guest
a seeker after truth

Erika, the Catholic Adoption agencies were getting on perfectly well placing many children each year UNTIL the Government introduced legislation which would force them to do something which, in conscience, they could not countenance. I know that you will claim that equality trumps all other arguments but if we leave no room for individual and collective conscience then we simply have an equality of sameness rather than an equality of opportunity. The mindless pursuit of “Equality” then becomes a tyranny which enslaves and limits people. There is no equality to be found by the state and others overriding the informed… Read more »

a seeker after truth
Guest
a seeker after truth

Just for the record, the reasons that many of us question whether women can indeed be ordained are rooted in scripture. For many Evangelicals it is the “headship” argument articulated by St Paul. For others it is the actions of Our Lord in choosing only male disciples. He was not simply conforming to the social norms of patriarchal society as I guess many readers will be thinking. His actions throughout the Gospel accounts show that He was not a man given to conforming to the norms and associated with tax-collecters, adulterers,leppers, prostitutes etc.etc. It is Jesus’ RADICAL agenda and the… Read more »

dr.primrose
Guest
dr.primrose

In the photographs of the ordination, after the ordination themselves, there are several pictures of the backs of several women, all wearing more or less matching beize raincoats over their dresses. Are they the ordinands’ wives? Was there a particular reason they were all wearing matching beize raincosts over their dresses? It’s a bit burka-ish looking, I think.

Father Ron Smith
Guest

“It is only institutional religion that continues to regard women as second-class citizens. If Catholicism believes that recruiting a handful of renegade Anglicans who share its institutional misogyny will buttress its position it is mistaken” Herein is the nub of the whole matter, For Roman Catholic authorities to think and preach the selectivity of God in choosing only the male of the species to perpetuate the Eucharistic Presence of Christ at the altar is nothing less than ridiculous. However, ‘as they sow, so shall they reap’. One can detect a number of shobboleths about toi be shaken down in the… Read more »

Laurence Roberts
Guest
Laurence Roberts

I protest the continuing misuse in this thread of the expression ‘Catholic Church’.

How could (a number of) you concede so carelessly the RC denomination’s central contention, without a struggle ? Shame on you. Don’t you care ?

I will never surrender the Catholic Church to them, to you – or to anyone.

Neil
Guest
Neil

What a poor piece from what I imagine must be a junior editor at the Observer. The Pope himself has decreed what is to happen re the Ordinariate, and what Catholics in general, Archbishop Vincent, and editorial writers think about is is hardly relevant, in that it will make no difference at all. This is how the RC church works, and the Anglican converts will have to get used to it as well.

Edward Prebble
Guest
Edward Prebble

I expect that it was pure coincidence that the three ordinands’ wives were wearing “more or less matching beize raincoats over their dresses”. It simply provides one of the more amusing reflections on the set of dilemmas that these three bishops, and therefore their respective families, have bought into. What do I wear in a very public event without historic precedent? I would guess that each of the ladies decided not to wear anything too “eye-catching”, and having made the same choice, ended up appearing to be in uniform. Keeping to the sartorial theme, I note that at the beginning… Read more »

peterpi - Peter Gross
Guest
peterpi - Peter Gross

I realize that, to devout Christians, Jesus the Christ is the Son of God. But the man Jesus of Nazareth lived in a particular time, place, and age. A time and place which treated women with, at best, patronizing condescension. If Jesus had selected women as direct apostles, it is possible he would have been jeered right out of the synagogue. And what about women being the first to witness the miracle of the aftermath of the Resurrection? The first to see the rolled away stone, the first to be talked to and receive instruction? And that instruction wasn’t “Hey,… Read more »

rick allen
Guest

Perhaps it is because the press is pleased to present this as some sort of Catholic raid that the reactions have been so vociferous. Folks, a tiny minority of a tiny minority has taken advantage of an experimental offer. I wish everyone could keep this in perspective, say “God speed” and let it go. The notion that this sort of thing has any effect at all on the day-to-day activities of “ordinary” Catholic parishes, that one must somehow choose between justice and mercy and supporting this initiative is really ludicrous. But then, ninety nine percent of what all churches, synagogues… Read more »

Bill Dilworth
Guest
Bill Dilworth

“Everyone knows this is not misogyny…”

I think a lot of it *is* misogyny. But since there are people whose integrity I admire who do not believe that women can/should be ordained – none of whom, as far as I know, are entering the Ordinariate – I make the assumption that they see some theological issue at hand that they find compelling but that I neither see nor understand nor feel compelled to accept on faith. I don’t get it, but then again I don’t get a lot.

Robert Ian Williams
Guest
Robert Ian Williams

Ron , don’t confuse ordination with ministry. these men obviously had a ministry as Protestants and presumably operated in sincerity. God will judge that. Now they are ordained in the Roman catholic Church, with all the sacramental assurance.

God looks at the heart and those in genuine invincible ignorance of the truth of the Catholic Church have a possibility of salvation. However to be in the Catholic Church is the safer option.

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

Seeker I have no intention of hijacking this thread with a discussion about gay adoption. I only mentioned it as an example to counter your claim that all Catholics will continue to work for social justice. You can make all kinds of supposedly high minded claims for shutting down adoption agencies, but social justice is not one of them. This is the real problem the Catholic church faces. How often have I been told that some or other principle about holding down women and gays is to do with important theology and not with “human rights” (human rights always in… Read more »

Daniel D
Guest
Daniel D

“The Ordinariate-seekers are men” says Peter Gross.
Absolute rubbish. I have attended Ordinariate Exploration Groups in 3 areas and all have many more women than men. Facts please not prejudices

Peter Owen
Admin

Edward Prebble

The diaconal stoles worn by the three former Anglican bishops on Saturday say nothing about the validity of their (Anglican) orders. They were ordained deacons by a Roman Catholic bishop two days earlier. There is a report here:

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2011/01/14/ex-anglican-bishops-are-ordained-deacons-for-ordinariate/

sally Barnes
Guest
sally Barnes

“Seeker after truth” should read again the New Testament and think about how Jesus actually treated women which broke all the cultural norms of his day. He healed, taught, talked and mixed with women often when his disciples would have sent them away and people criticised him. Think about his reaction to Martha and her “busy, busy” doing “women’s” work and her sister Mary who wanted to sit at his feet and learn. He accepted both. Isn’t there a clear message for us today in his life and work? But, most importantly he sent a woman, Mary Magdalene, to bring… Read more »

Anglican
Guest
Anglican

Oh dear. It appears that under RC Canon Law married permanent deacons (and by extension the new married Ordinariate priests) are forbidden from engaging in sexual relations – read it all here – http://www.catholicvote.org/discuss/index.php

Paul R
Guest
Paul R

It is not misogyny, as those familiar with the arguments about innovations in Holy Order will appreciate. OTOH there is homophobia. Fr John Broadhurst, interviewed on the Sunday program, said it was about various things, including gay marriage; but gay marriage was the first thing he mentioned. I note, however, that Newton was made the Ordinary, not the gay-obsessed Broadhurst. The consequence of the de facto expulsion of the Anglo-Catholics by the feminists is to increase the strength of the conservative evangelicals in the C of E. The C of E is becoming a very different, feminised, church from which… Read more »

Father Ron Smith
Guest

“No, this whole ceremony, complete with 80 Catholic priests on the altar, plus six bishops, was a grand launch for Pope Benedict’s new ringfenced section within Catholicism for Anglican dissenters” – Peter Stanford – I wonder, R.I.W., if you could tell us the answer to this question: ‘Is this an instance of a ‘Papal Indulgence’ towards ex-Anglicans?’ I really do wonder what many single clergy in the Roman Catholic Church think about this special provision for priests with spouses? Will this latest ‘indulgence’ on the part of H.H. cause any fluttering in the dovecotes of monastically-ordered presbyteries in ‘other’ parts… Read more »

Father Ron Smith
Guest

“God looks at the heart and those in genuine invincible ignorance of the truth of the Catholic Church have a possibility of salvation. However to be in the Catholic Church is the safer option.” – Robert I Williams – Robert, how does your statement above compare with: “Anyone who wishes to follow me must give up his life…” – the words of Jesus. This doesn’t sound very much like a life-belt to me. I can see now why you converted to your idea of Roman Catholicism – it was, for you, the safer option. Working for Justice does take a… Read more »

Sara MacVane
Guest
Sara MacVane

Re: Seeker on women priests and Jesus’ apostles – It is true (so far as we know) that Jesus’ apostles were all men, but …. they certainly weren’t ordained as we mean the word, and …. they were all circumcised (one imagines), never ate pork (well, Peter may have after the Resurrection…), were probably all married, etc etc – who decides which are the essential bits and which aren’t?

Perry Butler
Guest
Perry Butler

I have the possibility of salvation only if I am in invincible ignorance of the truth of the Catholic Church???? Dear oh dear RIW nothing makes me happier to be outside the Roman catholic fold than language like that.

Pat O'Neill
Guest
Pat O'Neill

Seeker: “For others it is the actions of Our Lord in choosing only male disciples.” Really, then what are the two Marys and Martha? Potted plants? It was given to a woman to be the first witness to the resurrection…apostle to the apostles, as it were. It simply doesn’t occur to you that the gospels and the epistles and all the rest were written and edited by men decades after the events recorded, men who by that time were deeply involved in running the show, as it were, and endeavored to make their church as acceptable to the world as… Read more »

Kate
Guest
Kate

No one is saying that men and women must do the same things. That is just not true. What Jesus is showing is that we must do what we are called to do. He accepted and encouraging Mary’s need to hear him (sitting at his feet in those days – for a woman?) while Martha was busy doing what was seen as “womans work”. He did not say to Mary “get to the kitchen” but he accepted her action. Why did he choose a woman to tell that he had risen? Why is it felt necessary to compartmentalise men and… Read more »

Andrew
Guest
Andrew

In the US, going from an Episcopal bishop to a Catholic priest would be very non-U, and more than a bit odd.
(On the other hand it is U to notice but non-U to say so, at least in public!)

I do wish them God’s blessing, and hope the churches can go on to more important and more Christian concerns.

david rowett
Guest

RIW: “God looks at the heart and those in genuine invincible ignorance of the truth of the Catholic Church have a possibility of salvation. However to be in the Catholic Church is the safer option.”

An argument first adduced by Wilfrid at the Synod of Whitby, if I remember rightly;-)

Rosemary Hannah
Guest
Rosemary Hannah

‘You women are so fundamentally different from males that you can have no authority, and never take part, through Christ, in his role of priest’ is always going to make women into second-class members of the body of Christ. Laurence C might like to pause and consider, that, while I wish those leaving for the RC denomination nothing but peace, the recent statement by Andrew Burnham did more to give me an unwelcome insight and a poor opinion of those now leaving the C of E than anything else ever could do. If his concern and that of the others… Read more »

Richard Grand
Guest
Richard Grand

Rick Allen said: “But if you insist on calling Catholics “misogynist,” what do you say about Jesus, when he called the Twelve to their special role?” This has been said elsewhere, but we should be clear that jesus was saying nothing about gender nor priesthood. The utter impossibility of a Jewish rabbi selecting Jewish female disciples should be obvious. Jesus actually elevated the status of women, but he lived in a time and culture where women had no authority nor leadership, especially in the area of religion.

Anglican
Guest
Anglican

Gosh, it didn’t take Fr Newton long to avail of the dispensation to wear episcopal insignia – http://htreading.blogspot.com/2011/01/new-ordinary.html

Richard Grand
Guest
Richard Grand

Robert Ian Williams said “those in genuine invincible ignorance of the truth of the Catholic Church have a possibility of salvation. However to be in the Catholic Church is the safer option.” One wonders why Mr. Williams bothers with the heretics and schismatics he finds here. According to him, Anglicans (who are Protestants to him) are unsaved. He is certain not only that those who do not submit to Rome are ignorant, but doomed. In order to be safe, we mys convert or face the consequences. Humorously but seriously, this is the kind of talk one equates with the Inquisition.… Read more »

Nom de Plume
Guest
Nom de Plume

“I think the Ordinariate will be small, but I do wish the people well. My prayers are with them.I do not think any thinking Anglican need feel threatened by it.”

Quite right, RIW. One can like or dislike the Ordinariate from either side of the Tiber, but the people themselves are faithful Christians doing their best to follow their faith in good conscience. God bless them.

a seeker after truth
Guest
a seeker after truth

Peterpi said: “I realize that, to devout Christians, Jesus the Christ is the Son of God. But the man Jesus of Nazareth lived in a particular time, place, and age. A time and place which treated women with, at best, patronizing condescension. If Jesus had selected women as direct apostles, it is possible he would have been jeered right out of the synagogue.” Peter, there is no need to qualify Christians with the word devout. If you do not believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God then you are not a Christian. You are right to point to… Read more »

Robert Ian Williams
Guest
Robert Ian Williams

Ron, The Blessed Virgin Mary is the Mother of all Christians…. Our Lady of Walsingham was rejected by Anglicans for over 300 years…..she is specically slandered in the Book of Homilies, reccomended in the 39 articles. Ctranmer had her image burnt at Smithfield…so please don’t think we are hi-jacking her. Married clergy are underr no restriction as to sexual relations within marriage….they are the same as with any other married couple.. all acts of sexual intercourse must be open to God’s gift of life. To answer Ron’s question on salvation….if you love Jesus , you will keep all his commandments.… Read more »

Bill Dilworth
Guest
Bill Dilworth

“I do not think any thinking Anglican need feel threatened by it.”

To be honest, I doubt any does. The emotions that I find in myself are sadness (at seeing Bishops of the Church of England going through what, from an Anglican point of view, is a pantomime of diaconal and priestly ordination) and anger (at the apparent duplicity of the leaders of this movement). A sense of fear or of being threatened is simply not part of it for me.

Jerry Hannon
Guest
Jerry Hannon

Rick Allen protests: “But if you insist on calling Catholics “misogynist,” what do you say about Jesus, when he called the Twelve to their special role?”

The best answer, to Mr. Allen’s apparent inability to recognize the difference between immutability and contextual change, comes from Peter Gross: “I have never seen anyone argue that Jesus chose Galilean circumcised male bearded Jews as apostles, so therefore priests can only be Galilean circumcised male bearded Jews …”

Doug
Guest
Doug

“God looks at the heart and those in genuine invincible ignorance of the truth of the Catholic Church have a possibility of salvation. However to be in the Catholic Church is the safer option.”
Robert Ian Williams

You know, you really need to get together with the Eastern Orthodox to figure out all of this “One True Church” nonsense. It’s really confusing for both of you to be making the same exclusive claim.

Laurence C
Guest
Laurence C

“Laurence C might like to pause and consider…” Rosemary Hannah

I’m confused. Regarding what am I to pause and consider?

My one-line post at the start of this thread was to take issue with Jakian Thomist’s “everyone knows this is not misogyny” comment. He can’t say “everyone” because many (including myself) don’t agree with him and I objected to the generalisation.

My apologies if I have misunderstood your post.

JCF
Guest
JCF

My, hasn’t this thread descended down the rabbithole once again {JCF, popping some popcorn to enjoy w/ it}

Just to give a correct URL to the GOBSMACKING story Anglican linked to, above (that married permanent deacons and the new AO priest are banned from sex w/ their wives): http://www.catholicvote.org/discuss/index.php?p=12987

peterpi - Peter Gross
Guest
peterpi - Peter Gross

“God looks at the heart and those in genuine invincible ignorance of the truth of the [Roman] Catholic Church have a possibility of salvation. However to be in the [Roman] Catholic Church is the safer option.” — Posted by: Robert Ian Williams I think it’s better if I keep my mouth shut. Daniel D, alright maybe I was using inappropriate terminology when I said that Ordiniariate-seekers were men. What I meant was that, since this is the Roman Catholic Church, that the people seeking ecclesiastical authority, the copes, miters, croziers, other bells and whistles, were men. Formerly CofE women may… Read more »

John Marshall
Guest
John Marshall

Does anyone know whether membership of the Ordinariate can be ‘inherited’? If the son of a couple of new converts grows up, marries and feels himself called to the priesthood, will he be able to do so, or will he be regarded as a normal ‘Cradle Catholic’ and debarred from the priesthood because of his marital status? If the latter, I suspect that the Ordinariate will remain a ‘one-off’ and its members and their descendants will be subsumed into the RC Church.

Richard Grand
Guest
Richard Grand

Robert Ian Williams and others represent those aspects of the Roman Church that make Anglicans nd others cringe. Their exclusive claims and derision of others, their utter confidence of their direct pipeline to God, the assurance that non-RCs are not real Christians, the endless parrotting of the party line of the far right which has now become mainstream, are almost caricatures of the worst aspects of Romanism. But you cannot criticise them, because they will then say that the the Roman Church is persecuted and misunderstood. They want to have it both ways. They are supreme, yet they are being… Read more »

rick allen
Guest

“Mr. Allen’s apparent inability to recognize the difference between immutability and contextual change….”

I thought I had indicated I understood why a communion might go one way on an innovation. My question was why another, favoring continuity, must necessarily be rooted in hatred.

It is indeed remarkable that an institution thought by many, a hundred years ago, to be “goddess-worshipping,” should now be considered “misogynistic.”