Thinking Anglicans

A Covenant in Canada

The Diocese of Qu’Appelle in Saskatchewan will enter into a Covenant with the RC Archdiocese of Regina.

Here is the press release: Anglican & Roman Catholic Bishops to Sign Historic Covenant.

Roman Catholics and Anglicans in southern Saskatchewan will mark the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity by establishing and celebrating a closer relationship between their two dioceses. Roman Catholic Archbishop Daniel Bohan and Anglican Bishop Gregory Kerr-Wilson will sign A Covenant between the Archdiocese of Regina and the Diocese of Qu’Appelle at a joint service of worship at St. Paul’s Anglican Cathedral this Sunday, January 23.

The formal agreement commits the two dioceses to specific initiatives, including annual shared services with the two bishops, each church keeping and upholding the other church and its leaders in prayer, working together on various issues and jointly working with First Nations elders to promote reconciliation and healing. Each bishop commits to maintaining communication when new developments in one church present challenges for the other. Anglican and Roman Catholic parishes are encouraged to undertake joint activities in worship, mission, education and social justice.

For more than forty years, the Roman Catholic Church and the Anglican Communion have engaged in serious theological dialogue at an international level, resulting in agreed statements on key issues such as authority in the Church, ministry and ordination. In Canada, the two Churches enjoy substantial areas of practical cooperation. Here in Saskatchewan, friendship and understanding have steadily grown between the two dioceses over the past four decades…

And here is the full text of the Covenant agreement.

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Robert ian Williams
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Robert ian Williams

The Catholic Church in Canada is in a dreadful state..due to local liberalism, and the hierarchy is weaker than the English lot.

Canada ia statistically 40 per cent Catholic and yet the Church has hardly been salt and light in the life of that nation. in Quebec the Church has been decimated.

However God will bring it back.

Father Ron Smith
Guest

What a goodly example of the willingness to co-operate – as far as is possible – with one another ecumenically, in the multi-facted Body of Christ, The Church. Despite the different values held by both components of this Covenant, each seemingly respects the other to be what they are – co heirs in Christ. No hissy-fitting! This is so much more than some of our own Anglican Provinces ((see GAFCON) are willing to accord their TEC and Anglican Church of Canada conrferes within the Anglican Communion. This should be a lesson to all those who want to exacerbate divisions rather… Read more »

Susannah Clark
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Susannah Clark

Covenants everywhere – and this one seems positive and unifying and it makes me happy that Christians of diverse traditions are seeking each other in love to share faith and share service. It makes me wish that the Episcopal Church in the US would draft a covenant for Anglicans all over the world to sign up to. This would be a way Anglicans in every British parish could individually align with the faith and service of TEC. It would also signal that whole national churches don’t break communion with others by “bloc vote”. Because I could see a situation where,… Read more »

JCF
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JCF

Are we to understand this local covenant is what has provoked your lamentation, RIW? O_o

Antony
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Antony

Apperantly the 70’s is still alive in Saskatchewan and I am not really surprised since there are a lot of liberal 68-generation bioshops still around in the Catholic Church in Canada. Though it will be a historical parantesis considering the views and spirituality of the young generation of priests and also in regard to where the Holy Spirit is leading the Holy Mother Church. Just have a look at Cardinal Koch’s, the new prefect for the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity and Cardinal Kasper’s successor, view on the secularisation of many the old protestant denominations (of wich Anglicanism in… Read more »

Father Ron Smith
Guest

Good to read your sentiments, Susannah. I wonder how many Anglicans around the world are thinking in somewhat similar terms. Perhaps it could be that the Global South Provinces who want to GAFCON-ize the Communion will, by their absence from Dublin, enable the rest of us to form a covenanted Communion-of-Anglicans-in-Diversity. This could be a win/win situation for everyone.
This sounds a lot more like the sort of ‘Unity’ that even Cardinal Kaspar has been speaking about recently – despite protests from R.I.W., the newest recruit into the fold of the Magisterium.

Spirit of Vatican II
Guest

This is the sort of thing that we should have been doing for the last fifty years. Joyful recognition of unity in diversity is the way forward. The way backward, even if young priests are supposed to be in love with it, is only the way backward.

Pat O'Neill
Guest
Pat O'Neill

I am always amazed at the ways in which some people–RIW and Antony among them–can find sorrow in joyful news. Is the glass always half-empty in your worlds?

Malcolm French+
Guest

Robert and Antony seem quite determined to demonstrate their limited knowledge of the Canadian context and of the attitude of Rome – and their limited capacity to read plain English. The great push behind this local agreement (on the Roman side) was the then Vicar General of the diocese (now become Bishop of Saskatoon) Don Bolen, who used to be on the staff of the Pontifical Council for promoting Christian Unity. As a courtesy, he apparently shared the draft with his former colleagues who , apart from some small suggested amendments, were quite supportive. Robert and Antony also seem to… Read more »

Rod Gillis
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Rod Gillis

Antony’s comment about “hippie” Catholics is laughable. He probably is one of those throw back guys who thinks Vatican II is a fad. RIW’s comment about the R.C. Church being decimated in Quebec is more worthy of a rejoinder. Robert Ian Willaims writes, “The Catholic Church in Canada is in a dreadful state..due to local liberalism…” In actual fact, it is partly old fashioned authoritarianism, and not liberalism, that accounts for the very marginal role of the Catholic Church in Quebec. During the “revolution tranquille” that transformed modern Quebec society, Quebecois rejected the history of clericalism and political interventionism by… Read more »

Antony
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Antony

Spirit of Vatican II – you must also be pretty much stuck in the 70’s! The radical changes towards a more orthodox catholicism that the new generation of priests are a fundamental part of in the Catholic Church is nothing but a sound reaction on the “spirit” of VII without rejecting the documents of the Synod. Ron is somewhat right to point to Cardinal Kasper, but he is very much an ex official of the old “diplomatic school” though even he stressed that CofE would loose it’s [already weakened] catholic identity if it continued on the path towards women bishops… Read more »

Derek Gagne
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Derek Gagne

Antony said: “the secularisation of many the old protestant denominations (of wich Anglicanism in Canada is one of the worst example).” My, but people love to beat up on the Canadian Anglican Church. Supposedly, we’re Unitarians who dress up. The good Cardinal thinks that the only worthy Protestants think like Roman Catholics. Unfortunately that means some of the most conservative/fundamentalist groups, among whom Roman Catholicism is anathema. There is nothing about what Canadian Anglicans believe that is different from any other Anglicans. The ancient Creeds and liturgical orthodoxy are intact. The use of Scripture is much more similar between Anglicans… Read more »

Robert ian Williams
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Robert ian Williams

I prefer to go back to the Prophet Amos, who speaking under the inspiration of God nearly 2, 500 years ago plainly put it…

“Can two walk together, lest they be agreed.”

Pat O'Neill
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Pat O'Neill

I wonder that RIW and Antony would think of the following arrangement in my local area. The various churches of all denominations have something of a clergy committee; they meet occasionally to discuss local issues of concern, such as support for families in need; most especially, they hold an annual baccalaureate service for the seniors at the local public high school. This service is always held at the RC church (because it is the largest), but the lead speaker rotates among the member clergy–RC, Episcopal, Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, Lutheran. The year my elder son graduated, it was the female pastor… Read more »

david rowett
Guest

RIW ‘I prefer to go back to the Prophet Amos, who speaking under the inspiration of God nearly 2, 500 years ago plainly put it… “Can two walk together, lest they be agreed.”‘ Hmm, leaving aside your chronology – is Amos really post-exilic??!! – I believe you’ll find that modern commentators avoid this sort of picking of a text. IIRC (mind, it’s years since I translated it) the point of the line is nothing about unity discussions, it’s about lack of coincidence – to paraphrase ‘if two people are walking together, they probably arranged to meet.’ Really RIW, with such… Read more »

Tim Chesterton
Guest

Antony says: ‘But for now the “hippie generation” may still have a party or two in some obscure corners of the world!’

Antony, there are many subjects on which Malcolm French and I disagree, but one way you can be sure to bring us into a perfect unity of indignation is to describe the beautiful province of Saskatchewan as an ‘obscure corner of the world’!

Malcolm French+
Guest

Thank you, Tim.

But Anthony’s ignorance (in the technical and not pejorative sense) is more to be pitied, I think. He’s never seen a proper sunset I imagine.

robert Ian Williams
Guest
robert Ian Williams

Answer to Pat….I am not against some social contact , as long as it does not involve compromise, or lulls the non Catholic side into thinking that their souls are safe where they are.

Antony
Guest
Antony

Derek, where in the article does Cardinal Koch refer to “worthy Protestants”? It must have been in your imagination or are you trying to divert the issue?! Modern conservative protestantism is another issue for the Catholic Church, but you would be surprised by some of the recent ecumenical developments in this area. Back to the real issue, and it’s indeed about orthodoxy, where ordination of women and the new anthropology regarding human sexuality are some of the “fruits” (or bad apples) of old heresies in new forms, neo-Nestorianism and neo-Pelagianism. So much for the orthodoxy of the Anglican church in… Read more »

Erika Baker
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Erika Baker

RIW “Can two walk together, lest they be agreed.” I expect that would be perfectly true of you and me, as you are so determined to criticise and dismiss everyone who doesn’t share your thinking. It is not true of my RC friends, some of whom are theologically very orthodox (and that means more than anti-gay and anti-women priests), but who are secure enough in their faith not to need to make me small and insignificant in order to elevate themselves. Walking together and having a deep conversation about things you disagree on and growing in understanding as you journey… Read more »

Father Ron Smith
Guest

” or lulls the non Catholic side into thinking that their souls are safe where they are.” RIW

Robert, Giddowderhere, before you really get into trouble.

Antony
Guest
Antony

Tim and Malcolm, Perhaps I should have used the synonym “unnoted” or maybe just the word “remote” instead of obscure, as a definition of Saskatchewan’s relatively minor importance for the world’s civilization. When it comes to the understanding of a particularly areas natural beauty I must confess that I have never experienced the plains, forests and sand dunes of the province. Though I can reassure Malcolm that as an enthusiastic yachtsman, hunter and shooter I do have experienced many beautiful sunrises and sunsets. Especially when I lived just south of the Arctic Circle in northern Europe. Funny, how you lot… Read more »

Pat O'Neill
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Pat O'Neill

RIW:

“…lulls the non Catholic side into thinking that their souls are safe where they are.”

Yeah, because the perfect thing to tell a bunch of high schoolers and their parents is that all the ones who aren’t Roman Catholic are going straight to hell….

Derek Gagne
Guest
Derek Gagne

Erika, I know what you mean about conservative RCs. It is more than being anti women’s ordination and anti gay. There is a long list of issues and doctrinal propositions. But they are also anti-women’s ordination and anti-gay and, when it comes to their view of so-called “liberal” Protestants (I’m an Anglican and not a Protestant), those two issues are at the top of the list, whatever others there may be. But then again, they think that others are unsaved anyway, so whatever we do doesn’t make much difference.

Tim Chesterton
Guest

‘Saskatchewan’s relatively minor importance for the world’s civilization’.

He’s obviously never heard of Tommy Douglas and the birth of North American medicare either, Malcolm.

Derek Gagne
Guest
Derek Gagne

Antony said: “Derek, where in the article does Cardinal Koch refer to “worthy Protestants”? You are very much a literalist. I didn’t say that it was in the article. He inferred that some Protestants were more acceptable to Rome because their doctrines/worldview was more like that of Rome. It’s not a stretch to say, therefore, more “worthy” of Rome’s approval or approbation. I take it from your reaction that no Protestants are actually “worthy” at all. You pounced on how I expressed myself, but ignored what I actually said.

Derek Gagne
Guest
Derek Gagne

Rod Gillis’ comments on the Roman Church in Quebec remind us that old-fashioned authoritarian Romanism wasn’t quite the paradise it is made out to be by people who haven’t actually lived through it. The state was all but a Roman Catholic theocracy and the Church was very much used by the government and vice-versa. Quebec was influenced very much by the most conservative Ultramontanism of the 19th Century, while it was the only institution that had any power in the French culture, as they were marooned in an English sea. In an agricultural society where education was frowned upon by… Read more »

Rod Gillis
Guest
Rod Gillis

Antony wrote “Perhaps I should have used the synonym “unnoted” or maybe just the word “remote” instead of obscure, as a definition of Saskatchewan’s relatively minor importance for the world’s civilization.” What Euro-centric baloney–bit no more than one would expect from the “old country”. Saskatchewan, home to Plains Cree, a distinctive culture within the Anglican Communion, home of farmer’s cooperative economics, and a place with a history of political, social and economic innovation. Thankfully, we have largely moved beyond the notion of “normative culture” in Canada. The Anglican Communion and Roman hierarchy could learn something from us. I’ve often suspected… Read more »

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

Derek, That’s just it – what you describe is the current fashion among some RC groups, just like it is the current fashion among some groups in the Anglican Communion. But let’s not forget that in the AC too, women priests and gay rights were never an issue until lately. Everyone had the same beliefs about it simply because no-one had ever challenged them. These things come to the forefront because of changes in society and they then become an issue for the church. The response of the RC church has so far been to remain firmly hostile to both… Read more »

Sara MacVane
Guest
Sara MacVane

Just to add a note to Malcolm Frnech’s comment: Don Bolen held the ‘Methodist-Anglican’ desk at the Pontifical Council for Christian Unity. Because of this position but more still because of his affection for all of us at the Anglican Centre and his respect and affection especially for Bishop John Flack the Director of the Anglican Centre, he often dropped in for a visit, supper out, an ecumenical Bible study (we read Gilead by Marilynn Robinson thanks to his suggestion, though none of the Brits liked it much, he and I decided our experience of the praries must have been… Read more »

Malcolm French+
Guest

Tim, the list of what Anthony (and Robert) don’t know about seems to be quite extensive. It’s pretty clear from their comments that they also have not read the Covenant document (which does not “compromise” on any motter of doctrine.

(Well, there is another possibility: that they have read the document and have chosen to lie about what was being done. I will charitably attribute their comments to wilful ignorance rather than dishonesty.)

Laurence Roberts
Guest
Laurence Roberts

Answer to Pat….I am not against some social contact , as long as it does not involve compromise, or lulls the non Catholic side into thinking that their souls are safe where they are. Posted by: robert Ian Williams on Monday, 24 January 2011 at 7:55am GMT oh dear ! this came to my notice when I was in a nice lull after the Archers! Now, all I can think of is the state of non-RC soul and future destiny. Mind you I have received HC at so many RC eucharists down the years that — who knows ?– it… Read more »

Laurence Roberts
Guest
Laurence Roberts

What Erica said.

JCF
Guest
JCF

“thinking that their souls are safe where they are.”

RIW, does the phrase “above your paygrade” translate to your side of the Pond/globe?

I don’t KNOW the safety of my own soul. I DO have *trust* in a Merciful Lord, however—that’s enough for me! [Seems safer—though I may be currently “lulled”—than trusting in ANY human being, even one purported to be (in “faith&morals”) “infallible”!]

Jerry Hannon
Guest
Jerry Hannon

“…as long as it does not involve compromise, or lulls the non Catholic side into thinking that their souls are safe where they are.” thus saith R I Williams

Dear Mr. Williams

You are now firmly in the land of desperate delusion, which not even Sister Mary Joseph, my seventh grade teacher, would be proclaiming.

I do think you should apply for the job of burning heretics at the stake, naturally after an appropriate auto de fe.

Boogada boogada to you, too.

Randal Oulton
Guest
Randal Oulton

@ Robert Ian Williams: The Catholic Church in Canada is in a dreadful state..due to local liberalism

Actually, Canadians might pipe up and say that it appears to be owing to scandals such as the abuse of children in Residential Schools, and the abuse of children in general from coast to coast. In Quebec, it’s more likely a rejection to the church support of corrupt politicians such as Duplessis, which you can’t really expect educated people to put up with.

robert ian williams
Guest
robert ian williams

The comments on Bolen say it all.. ecumenism , a pleasant social round for theologians. that’s why they find it hard to give up and face the truth.

Father Ron Smith
Guest

You may not believe this, Robert I Williams, but I do pray for you, and your deliverance from the perils of neo-convertitis.

Antony
Guest
Antony

Dear me….my comments about the relatively small contribution to our civilization that has originated from Saskatchewan really made some waves!
I mus admit that it has given me the opportunity to enhance my knowledge on a Canadian sociaist, Canada’s welfare system and the Cree indians.
Now I could start with telling you on the western shores of the Atlantic about the ancient Greeks and onwards, just to put this in a little bit of perspective, but I assume that some of this knowledge has also been taught in the former colonies?!

So much for Euro-centric baloney!

Rod Gillis
Guest
Rod Gillis

Yes Antony, we have copies of “Odysseia” over here. We’re aware of our varied heritage. Canada is a multi-cultural country. Let me help you out using the Socratic method. What do you learn from the legacy of the Greeks? What does this ironic question from the Greek New Testament teach those who speak out of a sense of cultural superiority? “ek Nasareth dunatai ti agathov? ”

Tim Chesterton
Guest

Seems to me Jesus exercised his ministry in an ‘obscure corner of the world’, too.

Jesus did not judge by appearances, either – unlike Antony, who assumes that if a bishop has long hair and a beard he is a hippy (as if cope and mitre weren’t proof enough of themselves!!!).

Those of us who have the privilege of being friends with Greg know that he is no hippy – just too lazy to change his hair style! He is the former Dean of Edmonton and a very fine priest indeed.

Malcolm French+
Guest

I am very disappointed that Anthony and Robert choose to slander people they don’t know and have never met based on unwarranted assumptions about a document they have never read.

For their information, the document was shared with the Vatican and (apart from minor amendments) no objection were raised. So I ask, does the Chair of Peter have authority in the Roman Church? Or is authority vested in Robert and Anthony?