further media coverage of CofE response to government

Nick Cohen wrote in Sunday’s Observer abour A church fit only for bigots and hypocrites.

Douglas Carswell wrote in the Evening Standard last week that The time is now right to split Church and State.

Cole Moreton wrote in the Sunday Telegraph Will gay marriage end in divorce for church and state?

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Father Ron SmithJonathan JenningsEdward Prebbledavid wilsonPriscilla White Recent comment authors
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Father David
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Father David

But – Mr. Carswell – if the Church of England – by Law Established is Disestablished – then what is left that will keep the disparate parts of the Ecclesia Anglicana together? Coming from Essex, I’m sure you know the nursery rhyme about Colchester’s dear Humpty Dumpty. After the Fall – “All the kings horses and all the kings men, couldn’t put Humpty together again”!

Father Ron Smith
Guest

The greatest problem for a ‘Primus inter pares’ in the Anglican Communion is surely that of trying to be ‘all things to all people’ in that Communion. Nick Cohen’s article demonstrates Archbishop Rowan’s problems in that area. His seeming inability to be seen to criticise the Sudanese Government on their genocidal activity, while on a visit as their guest, bespeaks a tendency towards ‘cultural cringe’ that has be-deviled the efforts of non-African Provinces to bring enlightenment to the situation of Gays and Women in the Church. Despite the promise of release from the effects of Lambeth 1:10 – with its… Read more »

David Shepherd
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A perfect example of the mindless opposition to the Bible is that some of those commenting on Nick Cohen’s piece claimed that 1 Thess. 2: 14 – 15 is anti-semitic. The offending quote is ‘the Jews who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and who have persecuted us severely. They are displeasing to God. They are enemies of the whole human race’. So the qualification that limits St. Paul’s reference to those Jews who were responsible for the crucifixion and first-century persecution can be re-read as a blanket condemnation of every Jew (apparently, including Paul). I suppose that decrying… Read more »

Richard Ashby
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Richard Ashby

The CofE, particularly the Bishops have fallen right into the trap they fought so hard to avoid yet dug themselves. In their effort to avoid anything that looked like ‘marriage’ they ensured that Civil Partnership were eviscerated of anything that spoke about love, relationships, commitment and fidelity and reduced CP to a mere signing of a register. And then they have been surprised that the vast majority of couples added all those things which turn a contract into a ceremony of witness and community. They wanted to make CPs of no more significance that signing for a bank loan. They… Read more »

rjb
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rjb

Nick Cohen’s column is a characteristic blend of ad hominem attacks, histrionics, and self-righteous chest-thumping. Nevertheless, I was very struck by this line: “Until then we had rarely thought about the Anglican communion,” [Giles] Fraser said. “There was just a collection box at the back of the church for Christians abroad.” Is it really the case that English liberals have never bothered to give much thought to their Anglican brethren abroad? If so, it’s tempting to think that they got what was coming to them when the homophobic African priests set up shop next door. There is something very unattractive… Read more »

Simon
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Simon

Richard Ashby has hit the nail on the head. For the bishops now to turn round and say they supported civil partnerships all along is simply mendacious and has been one of the reasons people have reacted with such anger to their statement last week. I think Richard is right – they will learn nothing from all this and will continue to behave like bunnies in the headlights.

Andrew
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Andrew

And the strangest thing is their staunch advocacy of what is an exclusively secular institution – civil partnerships – as if legal rights were sufficient in themselves for a life of domestic bliss, begging the queston: if it’s okay for gays, why not for straights too? Why indeed bother with marriage at all?

This approach has backfired badly and simply galvanized supporters of gay marriage, flushing out a lot of the arguments in advance of key debates in Parliament. The PM should call the bishops’ bluff.

Edward Prebble
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Edward Prebble

In answer to David Shepherd –

It all depends on whether St Paul included (or implied) a comma after the word Jews in his original scroll. If so, he was indeed suggesting that all the Jews were implicated in killing Jesus and the prophets. If not, then he is only referring to particular Jews.

I don’t know the answer to that, David. Do you?

David Shepherd
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Edward: I see your point, but how about just giving the benefit of the doubt to St. Paul? A man whose life was transformed by encountering Christ and who, in furtherance of the gospel, travelled over 1400 miles (largely on foot) in one missionary journey, was repeatedly jailed, beaten up and exposed to the elements? Furthermore, a man who also said: ‘Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved.’ (Romans 10:1) ‘I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel… Read more »

Father Ron Smith
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For the Bishops of the Church of England to now pretend that they have always supported the idea of Civil Partnerships for Same-Sex monogamous couples (albeit, without any religious content) is not only risible, it is untrue!

“What you sow, thus shall you reap!” Hence, the call for Gay Marriage.

Priscilla White
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Priscilla White

Edward Prebble, my understanding is that Greek scrolls had nothing in the way of punctuation. Koine Greek doesn’t do it. Any punctuation we add is interpretative.

Edward Prebble
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Edward Prebble

“my understanding is that Greek scrolls had nothing in the way of punctuation. Koine Greek doesn’t do it. Any punctuation we add is interpretative”. Yes, Priscilla, that was my point, and sorry if i was too cryptic. To David Shepherd; I have not taken the time to read Nick Cohen’s piece, so I can’t really comment on whether the “antisemitism” charge is fair or not. I was really only commenting on whether St Paul meant “all the Jews” or “some specific ones”. Even without punctuation, it seems much more likely that he intended a blanket application. It’s a bit like… Read more »

david wilson
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david wilson

Edward

It has been the orthodox position in the church that it is each and every believer who put Jesus on the cross – not just 1st century jews. Romans also talks about when the time of the gentiles is fulfilled, the jews will the recognize their Messiah in large numbers – so God has certainly not finished with the jewish people – in fact the very opposite. I know a few personally who have already turned to Jesus – the exact image of the Father.

Edward Prebble
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Edward Prebble

“It has been the orthodox position in the church that it is each and every believer who put Jesus on the cross” Yes, of course, David, and that is my position too. I seem to be digging myself into a hole here, and I would like to climb out. I certainly do not blame the 1st century Jews for the death of Jesus, though it can be argued that St Paul, and even more St John did so. My only point in posting here was to question David Shepherd’s suggestion that in 1 Thes, Paul was referring to some specific… Read more »

Jonathan Jennings
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Jonathan Jennings

‘ …His seeming inability to be seen to criticise the Sudanese Government on their genocidal activity, while on a visit as their guest, bespeaks a tendency towards ‘cultural cringe’..’ Well it would, but for three minor points: he wasn’t a guest of the Sudanese government but of the Church of Sudan – at that time one of the last credible organisations to span the conflict; he DID raise the question of the massacres, and face-to-face, with the regime in Khartoum; he also condemned them in a tense press conference in Khartoum, and the issue was much discussed when he met… Read more »

Father Ron Smith
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You will notice, Jonathan, that I mentioned ++Rowan’s ‘seeming’ inability to confront the Sudanese government. However, because of your having given an alternative scenario of the Visit, I defer to your better understanding, and apologise for my ‘seeming’ criticism of Archbishop Rowan. Mea culpa!