Thinking Anglicans

more responses to the vote part 2

Church of England Evangelical Council:

“The church failed to attend to God’s work in God’s way” – Michael Lawson, CEEC Chairman

The Venerable Michael Lawson, CEEC Chairman, comments on the No vote for Women Bishops “Is the church out of touch? No! It simply failed to attend to God’s work in God’s way.”

“The General Synod’s no vote for women bishops will undoubtedly cause both pain and even incredulity to some, yet to others a relief that biblical and catholic orthodoxy has been upheld. The reality is that the out come brings no victory to either side. It is true that broadly speaking the church as a whole has grappled responsibly with this issue. What will be extremely sad is if the result of this vote leads some women to feel they are marginalised in the church, for the reality is that the New Testament encourages the ministry of both men and women, yet in complementary ways. There are of course many places where the rich ministerial gifts of women already have a chance to flourish. But as a result of the vote, this complementarity needs an even greater encouragement by word and action in our churches.

As CEEC has warned on many occasions, one of the reasons for the outcome of the vote will have been the weak and inadequate approach to provision for those who could not accept the possibility of the ordination of women to the Episcopate. At any return to this issue, this matter will require far more thoughtful attention than it attracted hitherto. There was an easy dismissal by some – of those who disagreed with women bishops. This sadly was perceived as ungenerous to say the least, and the whole church needs to learn and learn again that generosity towards those of different opinions is a true sign of the gospel of Christ.

As an outcome to this vote the church may well be criticized that it is out of touch with the times. The truer criticism could well be that we failed to attend to God’s work in God’s way. The CEEC which represents a range of views on this matter, will happily sit down and pray and discuss possible ways forward with any individuals and groups who seek to know the mind of God and build unity throughout his Church.

The Venerable Michael Lawson
Chairman, Church of England Evangelical Council

Statement from Chairman of Reform on Today’s Synod Vote

We thank God that the Church of England has avoided making a big mistake which would have led to real division and a less inclusive Church. The synod’s decision shows respect for the issues of conscience involved. It has avoided putting significant minorities who, as faithful Anglicans, seek to follow the Bible’s teaching, into an impossible position.

We now have a real opportunity to build on the Church’s solid biblical foundations, reflecting together on the right way forward. The good news is that we are still together and able to witness to the saving power of Jesus Christ, which is the heart of our gospel, the basis of our unity, and the only hope for the future of church and nation.

We stand ready for any discussions that our future archbishop may wish to initiate and happily commit ourselves to approaching these positively. Our hearts go out to those who will now be disappointed and confused about the difficult position in which the Church of England now finds itself. We assure them of our prayers. We recognise there is now a need for everyone to take stock while working together to proclaim the good news of the Kingdom of God as Advent approaches.
Rev Rod Thomas
Chair of Reform

Forward in Faith reacts to the defeat of the draft Measure

Forward in Faith recognises that the outcome of today’s vote in the General Synod will bring disappointment and pain to many. However, we are not surprised that the legislation failed to command the necessary majorities, as it has been apparent for some time that it lacked any consensus across the whole of the Church of England.

As we have done for the last decade and more, Forward in Faith stands ready to offer a better way ahead, which might indeed command that wider consensus which this draft Measure so clearly lacked.

We ask now for a period of prayer and reflection on the part of the whole church, following today’s events.

Catholic Group on General Synod
from the Guardian

We regret the Synod was put in the position whereby draft legislation failed at final approval because it was unclear and unfair in its provision for those who, in conscience, are unable to accept the ministry of women as bishops or priests.

The Catholic Group calls on the House of Bishops to reconvene the talks started in the summer between representatives of different groups, chaired by Bishop Justin Welby.

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Rosie BatesElizabeth HowardJeremy PembertonBill DilworthNeil Recent comment authors
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Jeremy Pemberton
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Jeremy Pemberton

They want MORE concessions? They have to be joking.

Father Ron Smith
Guest

The only consolation here might be that, the next time around (in 2015), the whole Church may be much less inclined to accommodate the prejudices of the minority, thereby opening up the way for unhindered episcopal authority for both Women and Men. Until that time, sadly, sexism will be seen to prevail in the Church of England.

JCF
Guest
JCF

Sow the wind, and reap the whirlwind…

Jonno
Guest
Jonno

Not MORE concessions, no. Just the Honoured Place that was promised.

Pat O'Neill
Guest
Pat O'Neill

“…those who, in conscience, are unable to accept the ministry of women as bishops or priests.”

Every time I read this phrase I think to myself, “and what would be the reaction if we replaced ‘women’ with ‘people of color'”?

And “why is one OK and the other not?”

Laurence Roberts
Guest
Laurence Roberts

Single measure motion next time

Jeremy Pemberton
Guest
Jeremy Pemberton

They want an Honoured Place, and women are denied a place.

I think Jesus had something to say about those who clamour for Honoured Places for themselves.

Claudia Cotton
Guest
Claudia Cotton

Ordinary mortals who take offence at the slightest supposed disrespect, going off in a huff or plotting revenge, or who forbid jobs and positions for irrelevant reasons like skin colour or gender, or who get worked up about issues like food or dress or which animals are OK and which are evil are considered immature, unkind or just a little bit stupid. So why do special allowances so consistently need to be made for the gods of our various religions? You’d have hoped they’d be in the vanguard. Or do their spokes-persons have faulty lines?

Rev Anne
Guest
Rev Anne

This is not the time to talk about extra concessions or safeguards – this is the time to talk about a one clause measure. Women clergy have had no ‘safeguards’ from bishops and others who don’t recognize our priesthood. We’ve survived! If we part of the one holy catholic and apostolic church it will not be schism if people leave. And anyway if someone has a conscience about something it is they who should bear the cost – not others. That’s why it’s called a ‘cost’.

Graham Kings
Guest
Graham Kings

The Chair of CEEC stated: ‘The CEEC …represents a range of views on this matter…’ .

He also gave an unequivocal verdict that: “The Church failed to attend to God’s work in God’s way”.

The CEEC does not represent the range of evangelicals in the Church of England. It needs to add an extra ‘C’ to its title: Church of England Conservative Evangelical Council (CECEC).

The Chair does not represent the ‘range of views’ he himself mentions exists.

Mark Bennet
Guest
Mark Bennet

It would be good to hear from these groups that they want to be part of the whole church, rather than of enclaves where they can pretend that people different from themselves simply don’t exist – it is not true or faithful to anyone to create a system of two churches pretending to be one, and it is inconsistent with Canon A4, which General Synod very early noted was in the background of this issue. It would also be good to know that those who claim (on the basis of what people other than I have said) that they have… Read more »

Neil
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Neil

The sooner everybody RESPECTS and understands their opponents on this issue, the better. I’m astonished that the fantasy-politic which pervaded Anglo Catholics in 1992 (failing to see that the C of E is Protestant in its essence – not Catholic) now seems to hold sway on the opposite side (the opposition will wilt away – we will remove promises re provision etc) who overplayed their hand. They had their chance to accept the Archbishops amendments in the summer and rejected it. If there is a fight at the next Synod elections, the liberals ought not presume that their hand will… Read more »

Rosie Bates
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Rosie Bates

We mere mortals have a binding duty to root out the systemic evil that prevails in the Church of England at the moment. I prayerfully suggest that we take note of Andrew Brown’s comments and take the following action 1. All disappointed parishes should call an emergency meeting of their PCC’s and Synod members to discuss the ‘No’ vote and to particularly question how women played a strong part in the opposition. 2. We need to question whether it is holy for Anglo Catholics to have joined forces with women who have been educated to believe that women should not… Read more »

Jeremy Pemberton
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Jeremy Pemberton

Respect? I respect your right to hold the views you do. I respect your right to be part of the Church of England just like anyone else. But that is it. I don’t respect your views – I think conevos are wrong about the Bible, I think anglo-banglos are wrong about tradition, and I think both are wrong about mission and society. I don’t respect views that I don’t believe are the will of God, and I don’t see why I should respect them. Both groups live in a weird world of false-consciousness – just listen to the radio interview… Read more »

Chris H.
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Chris H.

Rosie, quoting from the Gospel of Thomas is only going to prove to Evangelicals that you shouldn’t be a priest. And as long as you use “God Herself,” it’s feminism to many/most. And why are Evangelicals voting against this “plotting” but the women who voted “No” specifically so that next time there is a single clause to drive Evangelicals and some Anglo-Cathoics out of the church not plotting? That definitely sounds like a plot to me. Vote no and get your enemies in the church to take the blame and get what you really want next time. Since it only… Read more »

Neil
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Neil

I don’t think using words like Apartheid is helpful or accurate. Let’s put the Orthodox and Roman Catholics into the equation Jeremy. Would you want to say the same thing to them? And how come politicians think it is somehow ok for RCs to keep women’s ministry at bay (which I agree is a total scandal) but the CofE somehow doesn’t have the same right to theological positions which challenge secular orthodoxy? I’m not saying I agree with the evos but I want to preserve a church in which all can flourish. That is why the covenant was so wrong.… Read more »

Jeremy Pemberton
Guest
Jeremy Pemberton

Neil – I think using the Apartheid analogy is entirely justified. You may know the history, but here’s why. Apartheid was a “deeply held theological position” that became the official doctrine of the Dutch Reformed Church in South Africa. It was so much a part of the mindset of that church that it was hardly questioned at all by its own members – with the very honourable exception of Beyers Naude. In the end his work and that of the writers of the Kairos document of 1985 and many others forced a thorough going re-examination of the theological grounds of… Read more »

Jeremy
Guest
Jeremy

“Let’s put the Orthodox and Roman Catholics into the equation Jeremy. Would you want to say the same thing to them? And how come politicians think it is somehow ok for RCs to keep women’s ministry at bay (which I agree is a total scandal) but the CofE somehow doesn’t have the same right to theological positions which challenge secular orthodoxy?” Neil, isn’t one answer to your question of Jeremy Pemberton blindingly obvious? The last I heard, neither the Roman Church nor the Orthodox was the established church. Nor were their leaders automatically part of government. Are you willing to… Read more »

Neil
Guest
Neil

Jeremy P – It is difficult to see how any case against women in the episcopate could be made if a priori any questioning of the new orthodoxy is deemed to be like apartheid. David Houlding talks about sacramental assurance for traditionalists rather than trying to persuade proponents to change their minds about women’s ordination. For those who want women bishops he would say they should have them. But for those with theological objections (and you must know that those who do – ‘impossibilists’ – would deploy the same rationale as RCs and the Orthodox, and claim this is part… Read more »

Rosie Bates
Guest
Rosie Bates

Jeremy, I don’t need to prove to anyone that I am a priest- I seem to recall a Bishop who was vocally against the ordination of women laying hands on me. He was so abusive to ten women that one of them who later became a Canon in the same Diocese could not attend ordinations. How sad and damaging is this? Don’t attempt to blame her – her stall was empty because she was deeply traumatised. Everybody in the Cathedral understood why. I read a lot in order to learn – didn’t have much time in parish whilst trying to… Read more »

Rosie Bates
Guest
Rosie Bates

Jeremy, Sorry about addressing most of my points to you – should have been Chris.

PS We recently had a locum here who had worked bravely alongside Desmond Tutu. This priest told me that when his bishop wished the diocese to be opposed to the ordination of women deacons to the priesthood, ALL the priests gathered together and then told him they would only offer diaconale ministry if their sisters were not priested. You only get one guess for One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism and One Holy, Catholic Priesthood of the People.

Bill Dilworth
Guest
Bill Dilworth

What does “Anglo-banglo” mean in the context of Anglicanism? All I can find on google are definitions relating to race, it apparently being a derogatory term for people of mixed English and Indian descent.

Jeremy Pemberton
Guest
Jeremy Pemberton

Anglo-banglo = gin and lace, camp as Christmas, call each other by the girls’ names they were given at theological college, watered silk cummerbunds and collectors of tat – you know the kind of thing. Wanting women out of the sanctuary is par for the course with this group. It’s all as gay as, but it tends to be closeted and seems to an outside observer rather self-hatingly homosexual.

I heard that term from one who knew that milieu like the back of his hand – he has moved on.

Elizabeth Howard
Guest
Elizabeth Howard

Goodness me , what a stream of spite and invective, hysteria and hatred even , flows out of these comments . This morning`s sermon was on Christ the King, the absolute King . Oddly neither the congregation nor the priests mentioned ” the vote ” , we just got on with the business of the Sunday Sung Eucharist in the windy winter sunshine , and hopefully received forgiveness along with the sacrement . One day we shall all be dead and the church can move forward without us with our inconvenient consciences and traditions !!! Pax .

Rosie Bates
Guest
Rosie Bates

This issue is now not one about women bishops or gender at all. True faith in Christ has no gender. From where I am looking it is about protecting every child that is born from dangerous extremism. If you replay the debate – and I have not, I think you will notice what a conversation stopper this biblical certainty is? If ever I am in the middle of such a conversation I seem to suffer from the most awful brain fog, it is just like a suffocating blanket coming down. This has always disturbed me and I foolishly believed it… Read more »