From the "ACC Considers..." link:

"Stanley Isaacs, ACC delegate from South East Asia, said that he had been disappointed with the consultations that the U.S. Episcopal Church and the Anglican Church of Canada presented to the council June 21. "I did not find anything in what they said that justified anything on the basis of scripture," he said. "They gave us a story about how God loves them as everyone else, and how they love Jesus and their families. I am not convinced."

I would say to Mr. Isaacs, that ECUSA gave you not "a story", but *THE STORY*: "God loves them as everyone else, and how they love Jesus and their families."

To not discern The Story as "scripture", is to miss the forest for the trees (not that I doubt there were *plenty* of "trees," by way of Biblical citations in their presentation. There are certainly citations a-plenty in "To Set Our Hope on Christ"!)

While I would *like* ECUSA to---in God's Good Time---"convince" all the Stanley Isaacses of the AC, our salvation is not dependent upon that (Praise Christ!)

Hi JCF
I think you missed the point; we KNOW that God loves everyone, but that is not the end of the story. God loves sinners; otherwise He wouldn't have sent Christ to die for us! But that's not a "free pass for all" - He will not allow sin to continue forever. He will destroy it; and us with it, if we won't let it go. We have time, but not forever.. What ECUSA has failed to do is show that homosexuality is not sinful.

Neither you nor I are sinless; in many ways, not just sexuality issues! So we must become transformed - into His glorious Likeness - dying to self, becoming a new person. Our calling is to express HIM in what we do and how we do it.

Not every sexual attraction is good; even though people who experience it might call it a sexual love. The bible writers are consistent in saying that homo-sexual behaviour, and desire, is sinful.

You think that "God made me homosexual". But you cannot insist that because "I AM homosexual it cannot be sinful"; because only He is "I AM WHO I AM", not me, not you.

But nothing would ever convince you, Dave, because of the way you interpret and approach the Bible.

I believe that approach to be wrong ; this is the basic divide between the two positions, and I see nothing which is likely to bridge them.

Dave,

Even the Rev. Dr. Billy Graham, during a recent Larry King interview prior to his last Crusade for Christ in Flushing, N.Y., took a less rigorous view of Holy Scripture with regard to homosexuality. Asked whether or not he considered same-sex relations sinful, he responded that he leaves the decision on that to God alone. Yes, he did affirm Christian marriage as a lifelong union of one man and one woman.

John Henry wrote about Billy Graham:
"...he responded that he leaves the decision on that to God alone."

Now, if my "conservative" Anglican brothers and sisters could be convinced to take Dr. Graham's position, then maybe we could get past all this nastiness and get on with the core work of the Church. Not convinced to "agree" with me, but convinced that it's the Lord's job, not theirs, to work out the salvation of others.

Do you have a reference for the Billy Graham interview? I'd like to see his comments in context. Thank you.

John Henry wrote "Even the Rev. Dr. Billy Graham, during a recent Larry King interview prior to his last Crusade for Christ in Flushing, N.Y., took a less rigorous view of Holy Scripture with regard to homosexuality. Asked whether or not he considered same-sex relations sinful, he responded that he leaves the decision on that to God alone. Yes, he did affirm Christian marriage as a lifelong union of one man and one woman."

Hi John, well BG's in an unusual theological position on that one then (both of us disagree with that position I guess).

However, the point remains that there is a tension between the fact that God loves us all incredibly, and that we are all sinners (and not just on sexuality issues).

So we must all be willing to become transformed in EVERY aspect of our selves - into His glorious Likeness - dying to self, becoming a new person. Our calling is to express HIM in what we do and how we do it.

You cannot insist that "I AM homosexual" - "therefore it cannot be sinful"; because only He is "I AM WHO I AM", not me, not you.

After all in heaven there will be no sexuality; Jesus said we will be like the angels, neither marrying nor being given in marriage...

I don't agree with that, Dave.

This 'dying to self' does not mean extinguishing our personalities. It means not being selfish and thinking of others, not just ourselves.

I can insist that I am gay, becausae that is what I am. And, with the greatest of respect, I know that, and you don't, because you are not me.

MM wrote: "This 'dying to self' does not mean extinguishing our personalities. It means not being selfish and thinking of others, not just ourselves".

Mike, "Dying to Self" is a bit more extreme than just thinking of others..

St Paul said "...don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been freed from sin."

And: "So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more.

You, however, did not come to know Christ that way. Surely you heard of him and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness."

No areas are off-limits for New Life! God regenerates our whole self over time... change throughout who we are. Fantastic news!! because everything we are is affected by sinfulness...

ps You may notice the lack of inclusivity of the hard-hearted Gentiles...

Funny how such qualities are so rarely found in those who proclaim evangelical Christianity!

No, thanks, I'll stick to what I first said.

..and so evangelical christians, and the writings of St Paul in the Bible, are summarily dismissed as irrelevant to the discussion...

Yes, generally, evangelical Christianity is of the utmost unimportance to me, given that it is a religious opinion which I do not follow.

"Yes, generally, evangelical Christianity is of the utmost unimportance to me, given that it is a religious opinion which I do not follow"

I'm tempted to wonder whether you follow anything other than your own life-style, which you will justify irrespective of what the church or the Bible may say.