I asked CHP if/when they were planning to put these on line. I was told they had no plans to do so, and they needed to sell the copies. What I particularly wanted was the specimen forms in the appendices - which would be very helpful indeed to those of us who have multiple Annual Meetings to conduct and manage (13 in our case)
Jeremy

Your summary of the CRR is most helpful - pity they don't highlight changes year-to-year in the book! Have you any idea why the next New Roll must be produced in 2007 rather than 2008?

Nick

Nick

1) I agree that highlighting the changes would be a very good idea.

2) The size of a parish's roll determines how many lay members it has on the deanery synod. These members are also the electorate for the diocesan and general synod. It is therefore a good idea to have the deanery synod elections in years when the electoral roll is as up to date as possible. By moving the revision forward a year this will be achieved.

What is the operative date of these changes?
I trust they are not intended to affect this year's APCMs. If they were, the publication is almost as delayed as Wembley stadium.

I agree entirely that they should be available on the internet. They change them too frequently; they are are unnecessarily complex.
Rule 2(1) requires a notice of intended revision of the electoral roll to be published 14 days before it commences. Having to wait 2 weeks before you start adds to the complexity and increases the time scale of the operation, for no purpose whatsoever.

Ashton

All the changes are in effect now, and, where appropriate, apply to this year's APCM. Whilst I agree that the publication has been delayed too much, it is just in time.

I don't understand why you have queried rule 2(1) here as this has not been changed. One reason for the two weeks' notice is to allow people not on the roll time to apply to be entered. This must be done before the revision if new people are to be eligible to vote at the APCM.

Thank you for drawing to attention the fact that the a new electoral roll has to be prepared in 2007 rather than 2008. I have commented on this in my electoral roll report having just carried out the annual revision of the current roll

This is extremely helpful. Would it be possible to reproduce this on our diocesan website (or add a link)?

You might try www.diochi.org.uk (Annual Meetings) for specimen forms.J

The 2004 rule 11 (2) permitted people to be nominated and seconded 'at the meeting'. Does anyone know if this has been changed - I take it from the excellent summary above it remains in place.

Rule 11 (2) remains unchanged. Don't forget that a different rule applies to churchwardens, who must be proposed and seconded in writing before the meeting.

I'm rather out of date as I have a 2001 copy of the rules i.e. when I was synod secretary. I don't think I've got time to buy a copy of the current rules before Tuesday and have a rather urgent question. Our Deanery Synod has elections to Diocesan Synod this week. I suspect that for the first time that I can remember, we may actually have an election for House of Laity places - the diocese has decreased the numbers to be elected from 7 to 4. Do elections still have to be on a voting paper, the form having been agreed by the diocese, which is circulated to all electors giving them not less than fourteen days to respond?

Yes - elections must be by a postal ballot as you describe. The form is specified in the Church Representation Rules. It is also a requirement that each elector is sent or given a letter inviting nominations.

It is the duty of the bishop to appoint a presiding officer for each election to the diocesan synod. Presumably the presiding officer for your HoL election (who must not be a member of your HoL) has been sent information on how to conduct the election.

In my own diocese, the deputy diocesan secretary has been appointed the returning officer for all the elections. Since he is a competent person this strikes me as a very good idea.

We have been wondering for some time, and cannot find a definitive answer anywhere - if someone is elected to deanery synod by their own PCC and then elected to diocesan synod by the deanery, what happens further on in time, if meanwhile the person's PCC has elected someone different to represent the parish on deanery synod - on the grounds that a diocesan synod member sits on deanery synod ex (diocesan) officio, and sits on the PCC for the same reason! It sounds rather circular but it has been argued that once someone is on diocesan synod they can be on it for as long as they like, voting back and forward between deanery and diocese and completely independent of their own PCC. I would be most grateful for a definitive answer to this, and also to what happens if diocesan synod members treat their votes as personal instead of representative.

Does a memmber of a deanery or diocesan synod have a right ( taking a full part) to be an ex-officio member of the PCC or is it by invitation if they have not been elected to said PCC. Any help would be greatfully received.

Church Representation Rule 14(1) provides that "(f) all persons whose names are on the roll of the parish and who are lay members of any deanery synod, diocesan synod or the General Synod" are members of the parochial church council.

This is subject to a provision in rule 1(4) that any person on more than one roll must chose one of these for the purposes of rule 14(1)(f).

So, to answer Ian's question, they are PCC members by right and thay have the same speaking and voting rights on the PCC as any other member.

Who may call a meeting of the Standing Committee of the PCC?

Help! I'm church administrator and have only just found out about this! No-one on the PCC appears to be aware of it either! How were we supposed to know about it? Shouldn't someone on the PCC automatically get these kind of rule updates?

Our Vicar insists on the Standing Committee being held in 'complete confidence' to only those on the committee,Vicar, Churchwardens x2 and PCC sectretary and myself. Nothing is to be discussed with the rest of the PCC members and no minutes are taken.I thought I was elected by my fellow PCC members to report back to them. I am not at all happpy about everything being confidental and there are things being discussed that the rest of the PCC should know about! Is this allowed?

The Standing Committee is a committee of the PCC which has "the power to transact the business of the council between the meetings thereof subject to any directions given by the council" [paragraph 14(b) of Appendix II to the Rules]. I cannot see anything beyond this about how the standing committee is to conduct its business, but it is clear that the PCC can instruct the standing committee to keep minutes and to present them to the PCC. I would think that this would be particularly important when the committee is making decisions on behalf of the PCC. Different considerations might apply if the committee is only talking about things.

Are there any restrictions on how long a Churchwarden can serve provided they keep being re eleccted?

Peter, From what you have typed at the top of this thread in 2007 there is a requirement for all electoral rolls to be compiled from scratch again. Is is this widely known?

If a church does not do this (either through negligence or a PCC vote) what could a member of the electoral role do? As a follow up to this if the roll falls does the PCC membership have to be reduced that year?

Thanks,

First, in reply to Roger Kenrick. Churchwardens can serve for a maximum of six years continuously. They are then ineligible for election for two years. This rule came into effect in 2002 and was not retrospective, so it can first be applied in 2008. A Meeting of Parishioners can vote that the rule shall not apply to their parish.

Second, in reply to Richard. My diocese (Liverpool) has written to all incumbents and electoral roll officers about the requirement to compile a new roll this year and has put details on the diocesan website. I would be surprised if other dioceses do not do something similar. Of course there may be some clergy who do not read their diocesan mailing.

The PCC has no power to override the requirement to produce a new roll this year.

The rules do not have a section about what happens if a new roll is not prepared. Notice of the preparation of the new roll has to be given at least two months before the annual parochial church meeting. If there is no such notice (or if there is a notice that the roll will only be revised) then I suggest that you ask the minister if the requirement for a new roll has been overlooked. If you do not get a satisfactory reply then I suggest that you contact the archdeacon.

My understanding of the rules is that the number of ordinary PCC members to be elected this year is determined by the size of the new roll. However if you elect one third each year then I think the change should be phased in. For example if you now have 15 members with 5 elected each year and your new roll means you now have only 12 I would say elect 4 this year (and next year etc).

I should point out that I am not a lawyer so the above should not be construed as legal advice.

Can anyone tell me the formula for calculating the number of the ordinary PCC members from the size of our new electoral roll?

Can anyone tell me whether a retiring Church Warden is allowed to be elected immediately as an ordinary PCC member?

Yes. Provided he or she satisfies the relevant qualifications there is nothing to stop a retiring churchwarden being elected immediately as an ordinary PCC member.

The number of "ordinary" members of the PCC (technically representatives of the laity) is:

electoral roll not more than 50 - six reps
roll 51 to 100 - nine reps
roll more than 100 - an extra three reps for every 100 (or part thereof) names up to a maximum of 15

This last bit translates as

roll 101 to 200 - 12 reps
roll more than 200 - 15 reps

Unless the APCM has voted otherwise one third of the reps are elected each year for a three year period of office. The APCM can also vote to change the scale of representation. In each case the APCM decision only comes into effect at the following APCM.

Thank you Peter

Last year, my church only had 12 reps instead of the required 15 and this year's APCM is due to be held in two days time. If I point out the discrepancy at the meeting, are we obliged and are we permitted to elect three more lay reps at the meeting or must we wait a year for the change to come into effect?

Likewise, my church does not recognise that lay readers are ex-officio members of the PCC. If this year's APCM recognises that they should be ex-officio members, does the ruling take effect immediately or must it wait a year for the change to take effect?

The rules are silent on what to do if the number of reps changes. An increase is probably easier to deal with than a decrease.

I assume that you have been electing four reps each year instead of the correct five. So in effect you have some casual vacancies for people who should have been elected one or two years ago. I also assume that four of your current reps will retire this year after completing their three year term of office.

So you elect five reps for three years, one for two years and one for one year.

The requirement to wait a year for changes to come into effect does not apply to making readers ex-officio members so your annual meeting can decide to do this straight away.

Further to my comment above, there is some good advice on the Diocese of Chichester website.

http://www.diochi.org.uk/resources/apcm/index.htm

What is the proceedure for asking for a vote in Diocesan Synod to be taken in houses?

There are a few occasions when a vote by houses is compulsory in a diocesan synod. Such a vote is not permitted for a vote on a matter of procedure. For other votes the president or any ten members can require a vote by houses. This is all set out in Church Representation Rule 34(1).

Unless your diocesan synod standing orders say otherwise the normal procedure would be for a member to rise on a point of order and ask for a vote by houses. The person in the chair would then ask members to show their support and if there are ten or more the vote by houses is taken.

Thanks for this mine of information. We are in a benefice of 7 separate parishes with their own PCCs. I am a Deanery Synod Rep from one PCC and treaurer of another and wsa happily accepted on the electoral of 4 of the parishes. I am also a member of Diocesan Synod (but no longer on General Synod!).

Can someone tell me what I can do or perhaps let sleeping pariochial dogs lie?!).

I gather Treasurer does not have to be elected so that could make 2 legal positions,but what about the rest?

What happens if a new churchwarden cannot be found and the PCC/AGM do not pass the resolution. It seems to militate against removing factions!

I am seeking comments

A PCC does not put out any notices concerning the election of Churchwardens or election of PCC members.This seems to have been going on for years

The notice just says there is an AGM to be held on 'x' date.

Is this acceptable, I am fully aware of the legislation.

Any comments on the legality of those elected in such circumstances ?

I am a Reader and Diocesan Synod member who has moved parishes within the Deanery. The PCC Secretary claims that I must be on the electoral roll for 6 months before going on the PCC. I claim that if the APCM agree to have Readers on the PCC, and the new PCC (and the vicar) welcomes my transfer I am on. I claim that the 6 month rule only applies to people being elected or chosen to represent the laity at the APCM and not to ex-officio members. Help! How many days before the APCM does the agenda have to be published? Ours is 22nd April.

I agree with you Stephen. The requirement to be on the electoral roll for six months is in rule 10(1) and explicitly refers to "a person to be elected a parochial representative of the laity to either the parochial church council or the deanery synod". Rule 14(1)(e), which allows the annual meeting to decide that some or all of the readers licensed to the parish shall be members of the PCC, does not have this restriction.

PS to Stephen
Since you have moved within a deanery my understanding is that you retain your membership of the diocesan synod provided that you are remain on the electoral roll of a parish in the deanery. This makes you an ex officio member of your new parish.

I don't think that there is anything in the rules that requires the publication of an agenda for the annual meeting. There is a requirement [rule 7(1)] to post a notice on or near the principal door of the church for a period including the two previous Sundays. The form of the notice is set out in the rules and includes a list of items that the meeting is required to consider.

Thank you Peter for your prompt reply and enjoy the heatwave.

Is it possible for a person to vote at an annual meeting by proxy?

There is no provision in the rules for proxy voting.

I am on two electoral rolls, one PCC and one Deanery Synod for one of the rolls.
I have been put forward for election to another PCC in the same Deanery. Will Church Representation Rules allow me to be on two PCCs as long as I remain on the Deanery Synod for only one of the PCCs?

Christopher

You are allowed to be on the electoral roll of two parishes and to be elected to the PCC of each parish. But you must choose one of these for the purposes of elections to deanery synod (and other higher synods). In your case you have already in effect chosen the parish that has elected you to deanery synod. So if you really want to be on two PCCs there is nothing to stop you standing for election in the second parish.

By the way this applies even if the two parishes are in different deaneries.

The relevant rule is 1(4).

In an interregnum, does the vice chair of the PCC have any powers other than presiding over the meeting? He is not a Churchwarden.

Fiona

In an interregnum, the vice-chair of the PCC is also responsible for convening and chairing the annual meeting.

Is it true that husbands and wives should not be on a PCC together? Also, I have just seen the above, most of which I was unaware of, and we have just had our AGM and have 13 members of PCC, when we should have 9. And there is no arrangement in place regarding serving for 3 years. Should we do anything about this or wait for next year's AGM.

And another - is there any arrangement in place for removing a member of a PCC should the majority of members wish to do so?

Philip

1) There is no legal impediment to husbands and wives being on the PCC together.

2) My advice is to wait until next year to sort out the correct number of members. For the time being rely on rule 53(3) which says that your proceedings are not invalidated by "any defect in the qualification, election or appointment of any members thereof."

If, as I understand, you have just elected 13 people for one year, then elect nine next year. After the election draw lots to decide which three will retire after three years, which after two and which after one. [See rule 16(6)]

3) The PCC has no powers to expel any of its members.

Very useful information, thankyou, but a potential nightmare.

For example, I persuaded one person to join PCC to be Secretary, since no-one on PCC wanted to be Secretary. This person had not been on the electoral roll for 6 months. Also she might not have got elected if we could only elect 9 out of 13. So we would be struggling for a PCC Secretary.

For myself, I am Treasurer, because again no-one else on PCC wnated to do it or thought themselves able to do it. If I had not got elected presumably we would have no Treasurer.

Next year when 4 people are 'booted off' the PCC I can well imaging at least one of them storming out and never darkening our doors again.

By the same token, we have been trying to encourage the right people onto PCC so it is positive and works as a team, yet we seem obliged to have to put up with people who can get elected and who we know are just troublemakers.

The only flicker of hope is the ex-officio members, who are presumably in addition to the 9. Perhaps you could help me understand who could be an ex-officio member, for example if we had to appoint a Treasurer from outside PCC. Are our 2 Deanery synod members included in the 9. Are we really saying that if someone fantastic and wonderful moves to our parish 2 months before the next AGM and is chomping at the bit to help us out, that we must not allow him or her because they won't have been on the electoral roll for 6 months?

Lastly, can I assume that when people's 3 year terms are up, they can apply for re-election.

Can any of these rules be varied by vote at an AGM.

Incidentally there's a website that has the Church Representation Rules, albeit for the Isle of Man, http://www.gumbley.net/crr_1.htm

The PCC secretary and treasurer do not have to be members of the PCC. See these extracts from Appendix II to the rules:

1(d)(i) The Council may appoint one of their number to act as secretary of the Council. Failing such appointment the office of secretary shall be discharged by some other fit person who shall not thereby become a member of the Council, provided that such person may be co-opted to the Council in accordance with the provisions of rule 14(1)(h).

(e)(i) The council may appoint one or more of their number to act as treasurer solely or jointly. Failing such appointment, the office of treasurer shall be discharged either —
by such of the churchwardens as are members of the council or, if there is only one such churchwarden, by that churchwarden solely; or
by some other fit person who shall not thereby become a member of the council, provided that such person may be co-opted to the council in accordance with the provisions of rule 14(1)(h).

Ex Officio members, such as the churchwardens and the deanery synod members, are in addition to the nine elected members. If you have any readers in your parish the annual meeting can decide that some or all of them shall be members of the PCC. In addition, for your size of PCC, you can co-opt up to two members.

Although people have to be on the electoral roll for six months before they can be elected to the PCC this restriction does not apply to co-opted members.

Since it is not part of the UK the Isle of Man can change the English Church Representation Rules, so it is probably unwise to rely on their version.

Hello,

My wife was nominated for election to the District Church Council. There were 3 other nominees i.e. 4 in total. There were 4 places vacant of the DCC. I am already on the DCC.

1. The chairman(incumbent) said, before the election, that he did not believe in having husbands and wives of the DCC and did not want it to happen.

2. A vote was held and my wife came last (the chairman announced the number of votes for each candidate).

3. The chairman then announced that, as one of the places was for 1 year and 3 were for 3 years the election had been for the 3 year places so my wife was not elected and he would co-opt someone for the 1 year place.

4. I have subsequently found out that one of the other candidates who was 'elected' had not been on the electoral role for 6 months.

What is my wife's position now - is she elected or not?

I am rather confused, bemused and upset.

Peter.

Peter, I don't think I can offer much help in this case. The rules for DCCs, including whether to have them at all, are decided upon by the annual meeting of the parish, subject to the approval of the bishop's council. So you will have to look at the agreed scheme for your particular parish to see what the election rules are for your DCC.

What are the circumstances in which an extraordinary general meeting can be called, who can call one and on what basis, please. In particular, can one be called to challenge the PCC elections at the AGM.

3 years ago I was elected to the PCC. I am now a Reader and it was decided I shouldn't stand nor be co opted but become an ex officio member.
However, this was not done at the APCM. Is it OK to tidy this up at the first meeting of the new PCC? Should it be done each year?
Ann

Ann

It is the Annual Meeting which has the power to make some or all of the readers in the parish members of the PCC. The PCC itself cannot do this. So there is nothing that can be done about this until the next Annual Meeting. The Annual Meeting does not have to vote on this every year. It could for example pass the resolution "that every reader licensed to this parish shall be a member of the PCC until further resolution of the annual meeting", and this would remain in effect until changed.

All the PCC can do this year is vote to co-opt you for the coming year.

We have a pastoral scheme that comes into effect on 1st June, two urban parishes made into one.
Rules 1(6) b, 7 (5) and 9 (6) a & b seem clear enough.

But it is not clear to me whether the special parochial church meeting of the newly created parish can make a scheme as per Rule 18 and for it to have immediate effect or whether we have to await Bishop's Council approval etc and then wait for it to come into effect a year later.

Alister

My reading of rule 18 is that you must wait for the approval of the Bishop's Council. It then comes into effect, not a year later, but at the next annual meeting in March/April 2008. But I have not experience of such matters. Since you have to get approval from the Bishop's Council perhaps it would be best if you approached the diocesan secretary or registrar for advice.

Just 24 hours into becoming PCC Secretary I am struggling for some answers. It is over 25 years since I served on a PCC and times have changed, but! Is it a requirement for a PCC to have a constitution? I have searched high and low online and failed to find an answer - also failed to find a trace of anyone who is aware of a constitution in the Parish - even those who have been around for many years.

PCCs don't have individual constitutions.

In Mark Hill's Ecclesiatical Law it says that "Its [a PCC's] composition is regulated by the Church Representation Rules and its powers and duties are to be found in those rules, in the Parochial Church Councils (Powers) Measure 1956, and elsewhere in other Statutes, Measures and Canons."

That's the nearest you'll get to a constitution.

Our priest and Standing Committee refuse to give the PCC minutes of the Standing Committee meetings and describe the Standing Committee as the Executive arm of the PCC. Your comment?

Tony

What have they got to hide?

Appendix II [General Provisions relating to Parochial Church Councils] of the Church Representation Rules includes the following.

14(b) The standing committee shall have power to transact the business of the council between the meetings thereof subject to any directions given by the council.

To me this says that the standing committee is acting on behalf of the council and I don't see how it can do this if it refuses to tell the PCC what it is doing. But this also gives the PCC power to direct the standing committee. Perhaps you should propose a motion at the PCC directing the standing committee to report to the PCC on its activities.

"Ignorance" of the law" is no defence yet just why should we have to pay to see what is written on laws/orders/rules. I consider that the Representation Rules, as all legislation, should be published on the net. We have after all paid for these laws/orders/rules to be written in our name. Does paying for them increase their quality?

I think we have too many people on the PCC (I am hon sec). New electoral roll is 32. Apart from the ex-officios, how many should we have?

ex-officios are Priest, 2 churchwardens.

Other dutied members are Deanery Synod Rep, Treasurer, Lay pastor, Hon Sec. Do these latter count as lay?

Shirley

With the size of your electoral roll you should elect six "representatives of the laity" to the PCC. The priest, churchwardens and deanery synod rep(s) are in addition to this. With your size of PCC the PCC can also co-opt up to two members.

The treasurer and secretary are not actually required to be members of the PCC. If you want them to be PCC members then you must either choose them from the members you already have or co-opt them onto the council.

I don't know about your lay pastor since this is not a position recognised by the rules. If he/she is a lay worker licensed to the parish then he/she is an ex officio member. If he/she is a reader then the annual meeting (not the PCC) can decide to make him/her a member of the PCC. If neither of these apply them he/she must be elected to the PCC or be co-opted.

You will notice that you cannot co-opt all three of treasurer, secretary and lay pastor as this would exceed the maximum number allowed.

Everybody apart from the clergy (ie bishops, priests and deacons) are lay.

A standing committee was pulled together by the Priest in Charge without following the church rules of electing 2 from the PCC. Since being advised that this committee should report back to the PCC, they have not met. I understand that there may be another (concealed) committee and I'd like to word an agenda item to convey that if this is so, they must also report back to the PCC - IF this is the case. Should minutes be taken, in any case, by any committee relating to PCC matters?

Shirley

So far as I can see the only rule governing the PCC standing committee is the one I have already referred to in my reply to Tony on 28 May which makes it subject to the direction of the PCC. One direction might be to require minutes to be presented to the PCC.

The rules allow for other committees, but they must be appointed by the PCC. A "concealed" committee would have no legal standing, although its individual members might have. And there is nothing to stop the P-i-C consulting with whoever he/she chooses.

Please can you clarify voting rights of any co-opted PCC members. Is it correct that paid lay members of staff eg administrators, may be co-opted on to PCC but may not vote?

It's important to distinguish between co-opted members and people in attendance. Co-opted members are members and have the same rights (eg to vote), duties and responsibilites as any other member such as the vicar and elected members.

Other people, such as your paid administrator, can be invited to attend, and with the permission of the meeting, to speak. But they are not members and so, in particular, they cannot vote. Equally they do not share in the PCC's responsibility for its actions.

We have a treasurer who is not a church member, is not on the pcc and is not qualified to be co-opted. He attends all pcc meetings and I have just heard that he is on the standing committee. Surely members of the standing committee MUST be on the pcc.

Michael Turner

Michael

Yes, members of the standing committee must be chosen from the members of the PCC; see Appendix II to the rules, paragraph 14(a). But I don't think there is anything to stop your treasurer attending standing committee meetings if the standing committee invites him/her. My personal advice would be for the PCC to explicitly allow this each year when it appoints the members of the standing committee.

Thank you for your previous advice.

Can you confirm whether or not Minutes should be taken at church wardens' meetings? Things that are said and agreed are not being relayed to parishes and it is causing some doubts.

Shirley

You will have to tell me what you mean by "church wardens' meetings" before I can answer your question.

Regular meetings are held for all the church wardens from the 5 parishes in the benefice and the priest-in-charge presides. A few of us are concerned that things are being agreed at these meetings that are not then relayed back to the parishes' PCCs. One church warden (not my parish) is VERY concerned that the meetings are not minuted and she's tried to explain why to the Priest-in-Charge but nothing has been done about it. An ex-church warden I've spoken to says the meetings never were minuted.

Thanks to your help we have now sorted out our "resolutions" regarding number on PCC, non-communicant members, etc., which was taken seriously when our priest-in-charge (who had been dismissive of worrying about it when I 'phoned him) spoke to the Archdeacon who asked to be notified by letter when we had made the necessary changes.

Sometimes it's quite difficult to make corrections when things have been allowed to lapse and there's a new person in the driving seat.

Shirley

Your question takes us beyond the Church Representation Rules and into the law governing the powers of churchwardens and clergy. If, as you say, you have a united benefice of five separate parishes, then I don't think that the meeting of churchwardens that you describe has any legal status. However I suppose it could be considered to be five separate meetings (one for each parish) taking place simultaneously. The wardens and p-in-c for any one parish can then put the decisions into effect for their parish - provided that they are decisions that they are legally empowered to make. Many decisions would require the agreement of the PCC, particularly if they involve spending the PCC's money.

I can think of two good reasons for the wardens to record these decisions and report them to the PCC.

1) Keeping the support of the PCC; there will be times when the wardens and p-in-c will need and/or be glad of this support.

2) Providing evidence of what was decided and how it was decided if there is ever a dispute.

But do bear in mind that I have no personal experience of multi-parish benefices.

Thank you Peter. I will probably have to find literature on church wardens to see whether there are any rulings. My worry, and that of the church warden who is concerned, is that notes may be taken by individuals but as I know from 19 years of being PCC Sec unless they all agree to the same report which gets signed, things get misconstrued and they all say they are right ...... and it's bedlam !

What I hope is a simple question. As the PCC represents the congregation is there a specific requirement for their meetings to be minuted and these made available for the congregation to look at.

1) Yes, PCC meetings must be minuted.

2) Members of the electoral roll may have access to approved minutes of PCC meetings held after the 1995 annual meeting, except for any minutes deemed by the PCC to be confidential.

3) Other people may have access to PCC minutes only in accordance with a specific authorization of the PCC.

Details are in Appendix II of the Rules.

Dear Peter

Could you summarise the requirements for looking at resolutions A&B during an interregnum? We have just begun an interregnum and the Forward in Faith supporters (1 of them is one the PCC) says we should give 28 days notice to the congregation that we are going to vote on A&B. However the Rural Dean says we don't have to give such notice as we are in interrugnum, though he is willing to wait to draft his advertisement if we want to! The Forward in Faith supporters also say that an interregnum is the only time that A&B may be considered, though we don't have to look at them if the PCC don't want to. What do you think?

The "designated officer" in your diocese must inform the patron and your PCC of the impending vacancy. The PCC must then hold a "section 11 meeting" within 28 days and discuss six matters, for example the appointment of two lay members to represent the PCC in the process of finding a new incumbent. One of the six matters is the consideration of resolutions A and B. They must be on the agenda, but the PCC is not required to vote on them if it chooses not to. But unless resolution B is passed the PCC is open to prosecution if it subsequently vetoes the appointment of a woman (on gender grounds alone).

My understanding of the Priests (Ordination of Women) Measure 1993 is that there is never any requirement to inform the congregation the the PCC is going to consider the resolutions. There is a requirement to give the PCC members four weeks notice, but this does not apply in the case of a section 11 meeting.

Could you tell me what happens to a parish church if they cant find a new church warden

Jennifer

If the annual meeting fails to elect a churchwarden then the retiring warden remains in office until 31 July. A casual vacancy in the office is then deemed to have arisen.

To fill the casual vacancy a meeting of parishioners is called and an election held in the same way as at the annual meeting.

If there is one warden that person exercises the duties and responsibilities of the wardens on his/her own. From the warden's point of view the main problem is having no one to share the work with. I don't know what happens if there are vacancies for both wardens.

Our parish is in a group of seven, with one incumbent. One parishoner has the job of 'benefice treasurer' and he looks after a 'benefice' account, for which he is the sole signatory. Unlike the individual PCCs, annual accounts have never been produced or audited and are not made available for discussion.

Parish accounts are subject to Church Representation Rules but are there any guidelines governing 'benefice' accounts and are they automatically registered under the Charities Act like PCCs so that gift aid can be claimed?

Thank you for your reply Peter I can't find an answer at present
Jennifer

Sarah

In your circumstances it is possible to set up a joint PCC for two or more parishes in your benefice and to delegate some of the powers of the individual PCCs to this joint council. Rule 19 (which is too long to summarize here) has the details. I cannot find anything in what I have to hand to tell me whether the joint PCC is automatically a charity.

However, what you describe appears to be an informal arrangement which is clearly not a charity. Although it may be convenient to have such an account my view is that more than one person should be involved in running it and that annual accounts should be prepared and presented to each PCC. Assuming that the annual income and expenditure are both less than £250,000 then the accounts should be independently examined.

You don't say where the account is getting its money from, but presumably the PCCs are contributing. I think that they would be unwise to do this without the safeguards that I suggest above.

Please forgive me if this question has already been asked above. Are there guidelines as to voting rights of those on the PCC. For example: If a PCC member (who also happens to be on Synod as well) has not attended any meeting or church service for a several months (almost year) does this affect their voting rights at meetings in any way? Thanks

Ro

All members of the PCC and synods are entitled to vote. There is no minimum attendance requirement for remaining a member. Provided they remain on the electoral roll (which for a non-resident of the parish requires "habitual attendance" at public worship in the parish) they remain members of the PCC and/or synod until their term of office comes to an end.

My parish is in a group where the presentation is currently suspended. We are grouped with another 3 parishes and their incumbent is our priest in charge. It is planned to set up a "constitution" to allow some of the business of the whole group of 8 parishes to be decided by an area committee made up principally of churchwardens, rather than separately by the 8 PCCs. Is this a usual practice where large numbers of parishes are pushed into a group? Some PCC members fear that agreeing to this will make it even less likely that we will ever see an incumbent for our parish again and will be construed a acceptance of the current situation. How much can a PCC prevent this sort of change being pushed on them from above? I am new to this and find it difficult to understand the balance of power between the various parties

Again, I have to ask you for advice ! We have a lay worker who was commissioned in November 2006 and she sometimes leads services. Most recently she held a healing service (and just a few people attended) but she took it upon herself to offer laying on of hands - which she did with one person. I have a fully knowledgeable friend who is herself a priest and she has said laying on of hands in church is not allowed except by an ordinand. Can you confirm, please?

In reply to Shirley West I do not know the answer myself but I have found this guidance on the website of the diocese of London.

http://www.london.anglican.org/regulations/healing-ministry.html

If I had read this correctly, lay people are allowed to offer laying on of hands. Of course your lay worker should not be doing this without appropriate training and the approval of the parish priest.

It is anointing that is restricted to priests.

In reply to Sue Rule 19 makes provision for joint PCCs to be set up in certain circumstances. This applies "where there are two or more parishes within the area of a single benefice or two or more benefices are held in plurality". I don't think that this applies in your case because I don't think that your priest is considered to hold the benefice that includes your parish. But I might be wrong.

However there is nothing to stop the eight parishes setting up an informal arrangement, and from a practical point of view this seems like a good idea if only to ensure that your priest is not expected to be in eight different places at once.

Since I know nothing of your local circumstances I prefer not to comment on whether it is reasonable for your eight parishes to share one priest or how you might try to prevent this.

Thank you for your help and referral to the Diocese of London website. It answers all the questions.

The CRR says in 1(2) '... where a lay person will have his sixteenth birthday after the intended revision of the electoral roll or the preparation of a new roll but on or before the date of the annual parochial church meeting, he may complete a form of application and his name shall be enrolled but with effect from the date of his birthday.'

The ER Form says 'Those who become 16 during the next 12 months may complete the form, and become eligible to be entered on the Roll on their sixteenth birthday'

If the latter is correct, where is the rule which justifies it?

We have a licenced lay worker who is an ex officio member of our PCC, but can you clarify whether this status specifically excludes voting rights? Also, since the APM can decide that some/all readers shall be members of the PCC, would this extend to readers in training, who presumably at that stage are not licensed?

1) Ex officio members of the PCC are members, ie they have the same rights to vote (and speak) as any other member.

2) The rule that allows the APCM to make some or all readers members of the PCC only applies to readers licensed to the parish (or to an area that includes the parish). Training comes before licensing.

I understand that churchwardens can only serve a minimum of six years and if they wish to serve longer than this then they have to be reelected by resolution at the parishioners meeting? Presumably, the protocol at such a meeting would be to mention that that person can not restand and it would then be up to the parishioners themselves to put forward a resolution that is seconded and then voted upon? Also, do nominees for Church Warden have to be displayed prior to this meeting (ie dislayed on a notice in church) or can they be given out at the meeting without prior notice (as long as they themselves are aware and have consented in writing)?

Excuse me Ro if I clarify some of what you write as well as answer your questions.

Churchwardens can serve for a maximum of six continuous years, but they are only elected for one year at a time. They must be re-elected at each annual meeting.

The annual meeting can vote to dispense with this six-year limitation. But for someone to stand for election they must be eligible at the start of the meeting. This means that a decision at one annual meeting to dispense with the six-year rule can only come into effect at the following year's meeting.

There is no requirement to publish nominations for churchwarden before the annual meeting. Since they can be given to the minister at any time before the meeting starts it would not always be possible to publish them in advance. Nominations must be in writing and include the nominee's signature as evidence that he or she is willing to stand and is not disqualified from so doing.

who decides how many Pcc meetings should be held (above the requirement of 4), is it the PCC or the vicar?

The chairman of the PCC (who is normally the minister) may call a meeting at any time. In addition one third of the members may requisition a meeting.

In practice most PCCs agree a schedule of meetings once a year, which the chairman then calls.

Frequently at PCC meetings out vicar has said that we msut not talk about the discussions held in the meetings to anyone as while "decisions of the PCC are public matters the discussions are confidential" ... is this really true? My assumption from the way Synods, school governors and other similar meetings work is that they are open meetings unless the the meeting explicitly decides otherwise (e.g. as a school governor we once had to resolve to handle an item about an employment tribunal as "confidential" but everything else was open). Its becoming an issue as PCC are starting discussions over arrangements for replacing out vicar on his retirement which the rest of the church are sure to have views on but where we are being firmly told we have to keep quiet!

The Rules give members of the electoral roll the right to see the approved PCC minutes, apart form any that the Council deem to be confidential. Other people can only have access with the explicit approval of the PCC. Minutes, of course, are a record of decisions and not of discussion.

There is nothing that I can see in the rules about the attendance of non-members at PCC meetings, but the rules about the minutes only make sense if non-members do not have the right to attend.

So my view is that PCC meetings and its discussions are private, unless the council decides otherwise.

Is there any regulation or protocol which relates to an incumbent actively involving herself in seeking to overturn a PCC decision relating to a pastoral reorganisation submission to the Bishop? The outcome would only become effective after her departure, but threatens to break up a benefice of 25 years duration against the wish of of the parishioners if the PCC is persuaded to be "loyal" to the incumbent rather than the parishioners as in last week's vote.

My understanding is that the incumbent is an interested party and so is entitled to be consulted and make representations in her own right. I am not aware of any regulation or rule which would stop her from asking the PCC to reconsider its decision but the PCC is fully entitled to say no.

I would have thought that best practice when the PCC and incumbent do not agree is for each to make their own response.

But this is not something of which I have personal experience.

If as part of a proposal to create a new Team Ministry the Bishop may by instrument "make provision for the functions of the PCCs in the team/benefice area which must or may be delegated to the team council being provisions to the same effect as those which may be made by a Scheme under the Church Representation Rules in like case", can a PCC be made to surrender its powers? and which ones? Where do I find the relevant Rules?

You don't state where your quotation comes from but I assume that it is not from the Church Representation Rules but from the rules governing the formation of a Team Ministry. Is it a provision in the Pastoral Measure? If it is I do not have the knowledge to answer your first two questions.

The answer to your last question is Church Representation Rule 20 "Team Council". This starts "Where a team ministry is established for the area of a benefice which comprises more than one parish the annual meetings of the parishes in that area may make a joint scheme to provide...". The rule is too long (2 pages) to quote in full here.

Please could someone tell me if there is a maximum limit to how long co-opted members (such as secretaries, treasurers) can be in office? Or is it unlimited with the agreement of the PCC/Annual Meeting?

Co-opted members of a PCC remain in office until the end of the next annual meeting after their co-option. But provided that they remain eligible they can be co-opted again at a later PCC meeting. This procedure can be repeated each year without limit. (See rule 14(1)(h)).

You refer specifically to the treasurer and secretary. If the PCC does not appoint one of its own members to either of these posts it can appoint a non-member (who does not thereby become a member of the PCC). This is not co-option although the PCC can choose to co-opt such a person if he/she is eligible. There is no limit on the term of office of such a secretary or treasurer. (See Appendix II to the rules paragraphs 1(d)(i) and 1(e)(i).)

Co-option to the PCC and the appointment of the secretary and treasurer are matters for the PCC and not the annual meeting.

thank you!

You cite above that the lay vice chair is responsible for convening and chairing the APM. Our vicar departs before the APM but insists that the Wardens have full responsibility for all affairs APM and PCC in the interregnum. It would seem logical for the vice chair to continue to chair the PCC (he is very good at it)or agree that the priest i/c should do it if he/she is OK. Are there any rules on this and if so can you give references we can consult? Many thanks,
Bernard.

Bernard

Your vicar is wrong. I give the relevant extracts from the rules below and you will see that they make no mention of the churchwardens.

Convening and chairing the annual meeting are covered by rules 7 and 8. Here are the relevant extracts.

Rule 7 Convening of Meeting
(3) During the vacancy of the benefice or curacy or when the minister is absent or incapacitated by illness or any other cause, the vice-chairman of the parochial church council, or if there is no vice-chairman, or if he is unable or unwilling to act, the secretary of or some other person appointed by that council shall have all the powers vested in the minister under this rule.

Rule 8 Chairman
(1) The minister, if present, or, if he is not present, the vice-chairman of the parochial church council, or, subject to paragraph (2) of this rule, if he also is not present, a chairman chosen by the annual meeting shall preside thereat.

Chairing the PCC is governed by this extract from Appendix II to the Rules.
5. Subject to the provisions of rules 22 and 23 the chair at a meeting of the council shall be taken -
(a) by the chairman of the council if he is present;
(b) if the chairman is not present, by a Clerk in Holy Orders, licensed to or with permission to officiate in the parish duly authorized by the bishop with the clerk's agreement, following a joint application by the minister of the parish and the council or, if the benefice is vacant, by the council for the purposes of this sub-paragraph;
(c) if neither the chairman of the council nor the clerk mentioned in sub-paragraph (b) above is present, by the vice-chairman of the council:
...

Paragraph 5 goes on to deal with what happens if the chiarman presiding stands down or if none of the persons in (a), (b) and (c) is available to take the chair. Rules 22 and 23 deal respectively with special and extraordinary meetings of the PCC.

At this year's APCM we have 4 PCC members who have come to the end of their 3-year term of office; also we have 3 Deanery Synod reps coming to the end of their term of office; plus we have one churchwarden standing down at the end of her 6 years. We could therefore potentially lose 8 members from PCC in one go. Please can you tell me if deanery synod reps are eligible to be re-elected to that role, and/or can they be elected as ordinary PCC members? Also can PCC members coming off because they have done 3 years immediately become Deanery Synod reps and therefore stay on PCC in that new role? Many thanks.

Nicola

In brief, the answer to all your questions is "yes".

To expand on this, deanery synod representatives are eligible for immediate re-election at the end of their three-year term of office, and there is no limit on how many times they can be re-elected.

There is nothing to prevent a retiring deanery synod rep being elected an "ordinary" member (what the rules call "representatives of the laity") of the PCC or vice versa.

There is nothing to prevent someone being a member in two capacities (eg churchwarden and deanery synod rep) at they same time, although they would only get one vote.

The only restrictions on re-election apply to churchwardens and "ordinary" members of the PCC.

For various reasons we did not create a new ER in 2007, and are planning to do so this year. Does this lack of a valid ER create any problems - such as for marriages conducted in the period, for example?

Jerry

The only reference to such a failure that I can find in the rules is in Rule 53 (Special Provisions) which contains this paragraph:

(5) In the case of an omission in any parish to prepare or maintain a roll or form or maintain a council or to hold the annual meeting, the rural dean upon such omission being brought to his notice shall ascertain and report to the bishop the cause thereof.

Paragraph (1) of the rule gives the bishop some powers to act in these circumstances, but he is explicitly forbidden "to validate anything that was invalid at the time it was done".

I am not a lawyer so it's probably best if I don't give my opinion of what effect your lack of a valid electoral roll has on the actions of your PCC and on marriages that relied on electoral roll membership to be held in your church. I think you should do what the rules say and tell the rural dean. For the marriages I suggest you consult the diocesan registrar.

I cannot find anywhere a list of the PCC's responsibilities. Is the PCC responsible for all church affairs, and if so, what does that mean? Or is the PCC legally responsible only for that which the vicar and church wardens choose? If, for example, the administrator wants to buy a new ream of paper, does he or she need PCC approval? On the other hand, if the administrator commits a felony which might require his or her dismissal - a purely fictitious example, you understand - would the PCC legally have to approve the dismissal? Notwithstanding the fact that we have a very good working arrangement in our church, I can't find anything in the rules that tells us what the PCC must do.

Does the incumbent of a Parish have the right to veto any nomination for the position of Church Warden before an election takes place?

I am the electoral roll officer for my Church...where in the Church Representation rules does it state that all those applying to be included on the roll have to be accepted by the PCC at their meeting first.....

thanks

Stephen Ogley

The powers and responsibilities of the parochial church council are not in the Church Representation Rules. They are contained in various Church of England Measures and Acts of Parliament. For a summary (too long to reproduce here) may I refer you to chapter 11 of the latest edition of "A Handbook for Churchwardens and Parochial Church Councillors" by MacMorran and Briden (ISBN-10: 0826481531).

Dennis Warwick

The incumbent has no right to veto any nomination for churchwarden. However under certain circumstances the incumbent can decide that he/she shall choose one warden and that the annual meeting shall elect the other. The details are in the Churchwardens Measure 2001 Clause 4(5):

"If it appears to the minister of the parish that the election of any particular person nominated might give rise to serious difficulties between the minister and that person in the carrying out of their respective functions the minister may, before the election is conducted, make a statement to the effect that only one churchwarden is to be elected by the meeting. In that event one churchwarden shall be appointed by the minister from among the persons nominated, the name of the person so appointed being announced before the election is conducted, and the other shall then be elected by the meeting."

You will note that even under these circumstances both wardens are appointed or elected from amongst those who have been nominated. There is nothing to stop the meeting electing the person to whom the incumbent takes exception.

Kenneth Hobbs

The short answer to your question is "nowhere".

Rule 1(2) is quite clear that any person satisfying certain conditions is "entitled" to have his or her name entered on the roll. There is no place for the PCC to decide whether or not to accept them.

It is the responsibility of the electoral roll officer to add names to or remove them from the roll and "to report such additions and removals at the next meeting of the parochial church council" [Rule 1(8)]. You will see that the rule says "report to" and not "refer for a decision to".

It is possible to appeal against the addition or removal of a name (see Rule 43) but such appeals are heard by a panel drawn from the bishop's council of the diocese. Lay members of the PCC (but not clerical members) are entitled to make such an appeal if they consider that the electoral officer has added or removed a name incorrectly.

Thank you Peter for the reference you gave me on the powers and responsibilities of the parochial church council. I have one further question. If the PCC that is elected in April 2007 hands over day-to-day responsibility for running the church to the administrator at its first meeting, does that devolution of responsibility continue until it is revoked or does it have to be renewed every year at the first meeting of every subsequent PCC?

Stephen

Unless the resolution of your PCC states otherwise it remains in effect until revoked. Even if it includes a time-limit that limit can be changed by a subsequent resolution.

Hello

Our PCC are considering voting for an extension to the church and the signs are that it will be a unanimous vote. One or two anti members of the church congregation feel they should have a vote as well and we have clearly stated that the PCC are voted by them each year at the APCM to make decisions on their behalf. I would say that the vast majority of the congregation are in favour. Do you have any words of wisdom on this?

Alastair

This is clearly a PCC matter. Meetings of parishioners have no power to instruct the PCC although they can pass resolutions that make recommendations to the PCC. See rule 9(7).

9(7) Any person entitled to attend the annual meeting may ask any question about parochial church matters, or bring about a discussion of any matter of parochial or general church interest, by moving a general resolution or by moving to give any particular recommendations to the council in relation to its duties.

So your anti members could propose a motion recommending the PCC not to build an extension, but not one instructing the PCC.

However I am sure that for such a major matter the congregation should be consulted whilst making it clear that the PCC will make the actual decision. You might want to hold one or more meetings for this purpose. My personal advice would be not to do this at the annual meeting, but to hold a meeting for this one purpose only.

Peter,

thank you for your useful info supplied so far.
As to "outsiders" attending PCC meetings in a non-voting, non-speaking capacity, can the incumbent, a warden or a PCC member invite to be present at a PCC meeting, without PCC approval, either a)an ER member or b) a non-ER member?
Do the CRR give guidance on this?

Bernard

I've answered most of your question before (on 6 December 2007) with the conclusion "So my view is that PCC meetings and its discussions are private, unless the council decides otherwise."

So non-members can only attend with the agreement of the council, and it doesn't make any difference whether or not they are on the electoral roll.

To save you scrolling through this long set of comments I have copied my previous comment at the end of this one.

Peter

The Rules give members of the electoral roll the right to see the approved PCC minutes, apart from any that the Council deem to be confidential. Other people can only have access with the explicit approval of the PCC. Minutes, of course, are a record of decisions and not of discussion.

There is nothing that I can see in the rules about the attendance of non-members at PCC meetings, but the rules about the minutes only make sense if non-members do not have the right to attend.

So my view is that PCC meetings and its discussions are private, unless the council decides otherwise.

We are one of three jt parishes. Our vicar is retiring imminently. We have held our sect 11 meeting and elected 2 representatives to decide the parish profile for use during the interview selection process. The representatives carrying our PCC instructions are meeting shortly to process this matter. Are churchwardens who have not been elected as one of the two representatives eligible to attend and take part in these meetings? Part of the discussions could be about churchwardens!

Arthur

This is a Patronage Measure matter, rather than anything to do with the Church Representation Rules. There is a useful Grove Booklet about this which I have. So far as I can see the churchwardens do not have a place in the process simply because they are wardens. The PCC has certain rights and so do the parish reps. The wardens are only entitled to be involved as PCC members or (if elected) as parish reps.

The preparation of the parish profile is the responsibility of the PCC(s). You say that this has been delegated to the parish representatives (and nobody else). In that case only those reps are eligible to take part. So any wardens who are not reps are not entitled to attend any meetings of the parish reps.

Can you please advise what the current rules are in respect of postal voting for the election of churchwardens at the 'vestry meeting' prior to the APM. I am in the unfortunate position as the church organist/former churchwarden to be in conflict with our Lay Ministers who adopt a 'jobsworth' attitude in what they do. Because I cannot attend the APM because of other commitments elsewhere I have been told that I cannot have a postal vote but must be present. I believe that this is an attempt to stop me registering my disquiet about one of the candidates.

Robert

The Church Representation Rules have a provision for postal voting in elections for parochial representatives of the laity and for deanery synod members, but these do not apply to the election of churchwardens. So what you have been told is correct.

Where postal voting is permissible the annual meeting must first vote to allow it in the parish. One consequence of the detailed rules is that a decision made at one annual meeting can only come into effect at the following year.

I am our PCC representative to our Deanery Synod. I cannot find any information on how representatives of PCCs, Deanery Synods etc, should act when voting on a measure or proposal in the synod at which they are representing their parent body. Should they vote accoding to the will of their parent body, if it has been expressed, or should they vote according to their personal conviction? I would have thought it was the former, but I am led to believe the latter may be the case. Is there guidance on this aspect anywhere?

David

You are, as you say yourself, a representative, and not a delegate. Furthermore you are a representative of the laity of your parish (who have elected you) and not of the PCC.

There is no provision in the rules for representatives to be told how to vote.

Representatives should vote according to their personal conviction.

Can I clarify the issue of postal voting?

Firstly can anyone on the electoral roll not able to come to the APCM arrange to have a postal vote for electing PCC members? If so would the church have to agree to this a year in advance i.e. at this years APCM to take into effect next year?

Also assuming postal voting is allowed for PCC members would the votes have to be recived by the election date thus disadvantaging anyone standing 'on the day'?

Thanks

Sarah

Short answer: Yes, Yes, No.

I'll summarize the procedure for postal votes at the Annual Parochial Church Meeting so that you can see why this is so.

1) The APCM passes a resolution permitting postal votes. The meeting can do this for deanery synod members, ordinary PCC members or both.

2) The notice for the APCM includes a note that postal voting is permitted.

3) Those who want to vote by post must apply to the minister before the start of the APCM.

4) If an election at the APCM is contested a presiding officer is appointed by the meeting and voting papers are distributed to those present, and posted (within 48 hours) to those who have applied to vote by post. Those present vote at the meeting. Those voting by post have between 7 and 14 days* to return their voting papers to the presiding officer. The votes are then counted.

Since stage 2 starts before the APCM, stage 1 must have occurred at an earlier APCM.

* The exact length of time is decided by the presiding officer

At an APCM where there are elections to the PCC and the Deanery Synod, can the same person be nominated for both PCC and Deanery Synod?

If that is possible, what process is followed to prevent one person occupying both roles or could that happen?

David

There is nothing to stop one person being nominated for both deanery synod and PCC. Equally there is nothing to stop a person so nominated from being elected to both positions. However such a person would be only one member of the PCC with one vote.

Can you advise? I am a member of Diocesan Synod elected for 3 years from 2006-2009.
This year we will hold deanery synod elections at ou church AGM.
If I did not stand for election or was not elected to Deanery Synod, would I be considered to be ex-officio at Deanery Synod because I am still a member of Diocesan Synod?

Richard.

The answer to your question is "yes".

For as long as you are an elected member of your diocesan synod you are also an ex officio member of your deanery synod and your PCC.

Thank you, Peter, for a very informative weblog. You are clearly "a rock".

Continued... One thing is very clear to me though that the Church should publish all the statutory rules and "A Handbook for Churchwardens and Parochial Church Councillors" on-line, to help avoid misunderstandings and errors by clergy and laity alike. ...

I understand that PCC's do not have constitutions imposed upon them, but I presume there is no restriction on them adopting one, so long as it is consistent with the statutory rules. Does anyone have an example of such a thing, or Standing Orders for how a church's PCC should be conducted? I believe it would be very helpful for us to develop a model constitution for PCCsto adopt and amend to their own needs.

Please advise

Our Team of 3 churches within a Parish was dissolved as at 1 April 2008 and we are now 2 parishes. [1 Parish Church and 2 Churches forming the other Parish]

Each church within the old Parish held their AGM's in March 2008

Our old Team Ministry is to hold the APCM on 27 April 2008 with consolidated accounts.

Can our new Parish also hold a separate APCM on 27 April 2008, mainly to 'rubber stamp' decisions made at our AGM, or should it join with the Old Team?

Simon

A PCC constitution would have to contain all the relevant parts of the Church Representation Rules, plus a statement that in the event of conflict the Rules take precedence. What extra items, not in the Rules, do you have in mind?

Kenneth

I don't know the answer to your query. The Rules have a section about what can happen when a Team is formed but I cannot see anything about dissolving a team.

I would expect the scheme that set up your new arrangements would contain any necessary transitional arrangements, such as who is initially on the two PCCs and how long their terms of office are.

Could you let please me know whether deputy churchwardens have to be members of the PCC and when co-opting members onto the PCC can just the chair do this or does it have to be a full PCC decision.

John Hibbert

John

The answer to your first question depends on what you mean by "deputy churchwarden".

In a parish with two or more places of worship the annual meeting may make a scheme setting up district church councils. Such a scheme can include the election of deputy churchwardens and may provide for them to be ex-officio members of the PCC. The Pastoral Measure 1983 has similar provisions for district church councils and deputy churchwardens in a team ministry established by a pastoral scheme. If you mean either of these you will have to look in the scheme for your parish to find the answer to your question.

Alternatively you may mean the sort of unofficial deputy churchwarden that parishes sometimes appoint as a sort of superior sidesman. Since such an appointment is quite unofficial and gives the appointee no powers or rights then it's a local decision as to who is eligible.

To be a sidesman a person has to be on the electoral roll but that is all.

The power to co-opt to the PCC belongs to the PCC and not to the chair or any other individual.

Thank you Peter. Very helpful comments.

John

Peter,

Pastoral Reorganisation has robbed us of our vicar so we are in a vacancy not an interregnum until "attached" to a neighbouring cluster of parishes. This will not be for at least a year.
We have a NSM helping us pro tem with communion services and there is a suggestion that she should be co-opted on to the PCC. Since she is not licensed to the parish or on the electoral roll, is this possible? Would it be better to vote to allow her to attend PCC meetings and speak as a "guest" but not have voting rights?
If she were co-opted, would she have the right to take the chair as the only clergy member?

Bernard

You can co-opt any clerk in Holy Orders to the PCC, so there is no problem in co-opting the NSM (provided you don't go over the maximum allowed number of co-opted members*).

There is a provision for a clerk in holy orders to chair the PCC. It has to be somebody who is licensed to or with permission to officiate in the parish and the PCC has to apply to the bishop for authorization.

* This is one-fifth of the "ordinary" elected lay members or two, whichever is larger.

Our section 11 meeting is "ongoing". It all took so long, we are reconvening in a few days. We know that clergy do not attend, however are Church staff members that have been co-opted on allowed to attend?

Thanks

I am a member of our PCC, and as part of the Diocesan Shrinking the Footprint Campagn in our Parish, I asked the treasurer if I could see the invoices for oil and electricity over the last 5 years. He refused, saying they were confidential. Surely this is not correct as the PCC is jointly responsible for the Church finances?

Jeremy

Do you mean "co-opted" or do you mean "in attendance"? A co-opted member is just as much a member as any elected member. Paid staff are not normally members of boards of trustees (which is what a PCC is). Charity law frowns on this because of the conflict of interest. However they may be invited to attend PCC meetings and speak (but not vote). Presumably the section 11 meeting of the PCC can also invite them, but it might be wise not to do so. You might find their presence inhibits some of the discussion, for example when you get to the section of the parish profile about the staff.

Sarah

You are right to say that the PCC is responsible for the parish finances. I cannot see how the PCC can exercise this responsibility if it does not have access to invoices etc. Some of the information will be in the PCC annual accounts which are publicly available.

But this access is for the purpose of ensuring that your PCC finances are being looked after properly. I doubt that you have the right of access for other purposes, however worthy, which is what you appear to want to do here. For this I think you should obtain permission from the PCC.

Does someone, who is an unelected member of a Deanery Synod by virtue of being asked to continue as its Treasurer after his period of elected membership has ceased, continue to be a PCC member with full voting rights?

Mike

I assume that the deanery synod treasurer is a lay person.

The house of laity of the deanery synod can co-opt him/her as a member of the house of laity (Rule 24(7)). He/she is then a member of the PCC of the parish whose electoral roll he/she belongs to (Rule 14(1)(f)). This latter rule does not distinguish between elected and co-opted members of the deanery synod.

If he/she is not co-opted to the deanery synod then he/she is not a member of the synod or PCC. The synod might invite him/her to attend synod meetings but that is not the same as being a member.

All members of PCCs and synods are "full" members with voting and speaking rights.

Please can you tell me if PCC members who have served their full 3 year term have to take a certain amount of time off before being eligible for re-election? Thanks.

Nicola

There is no restriction on the re-election of deanery synod members.

By default there is no restriction for the "ordinary" elected members of the PCC. But in this case the annual meeting can set a limit on how long a person can serve continuously and on how long they then have to wait before they become eligible once more for election.

If I have understood the rule correctly the limit only applies to service after the annual meeting which votes to set the limit.

Please can you help? The churchwarden at the AGM thought that nobody else wanted to stand for election. At the AGM one of the current PCC had put her name forward without telling the warden. The warden duly stepped down without a vote. However she ( the outgoing warden )had not been proposed/seconded for the PCC prior to the AGM meeting and is now not a member. Should she have been given the option to stand whether she was proposed prior to the meeting or not?

Ronnie

Nominations for churchwarden have to be in writing and received by the minister before the meeting held to elect churchwardens. [Churchwardens Measure 2001 Section 4(3)]

Nominations for representatives of the laity on the PCC and the deanery synod can be made before the annual parochial church meeting (in which case they must be in writing) or at the meeting. [Church Representation Rule 11(2)] So nominations should have been invited from the floor, giving your retiring warden the opportunity to stand for election to the PCC.

Thank you, Peter

I'd be grateful for help with a further query. Our deanery synod reps are due to be elected at this year's ACM. What is the status of deanery synod members between the last meeting of the previous synod and the first meeting of the next, which I understand is in June? Could the person, if co-opted in the previous synod, attend the first meeting of the new PCC, which is on 12th May, with full speaking and voting rights?

Mike

Membership of the new deanery synod runs from 1 June 2008 to 31 May 2011. Membership of the current synod continues until 31 May 2008 even if there are are no more meetings. So anybody who was a member of the old synod, whether elected or co-opted, remains a member of their PCC until 31 May 2008.

But those elected to the deanery synod become members of their PCC immediately. So if you have a PCC meeting between your APCM and the end of May then both old and new deanery synod members must be invited.

Peter,
thank you for you inexhaustible flow of useful information; long may it continue.
We are in a vacancy situation and have a NSM assisting but not licensed to us. We have suggested that the PCC revisit the matter of having 8am BCP communion and 9.30am Matins on the same Sunday since the services appeal to the same people.
Our NSM has guided the Wardens to inactivity on the grounds that no changes should be made in an interregnum. Since we are not in one, I feel that it is the decision of the PCC to move on this, especially as there is no term placed on the vacancy other than that it will not be less than a year. Are we on firm ground if we do this?

Bernard.

At a recent Annual Meeting, there were 9 candidates for 8 vacancies on the District Church Council so a ballot was held. A friend had his votes disqualified because he had only voted for 4 people and not the full 8. The scrutineers were surely wrong to do this as there is no such requirement in the Church Representation Rules?

Bernard

I don't think the reason for your vacancy is particularly relevant. The reason normally given for not making significant changes is that when you do have a permanent parish priest you and/or he/she will probably want to reconsider what you have done. It is not a good idea to pre-empt things before the new person arrives. This is particularly so if you are going to end up with fewer clergy than churches and they cannot all have services at the same time.

However I am not aware of any rule that absolutely forbids changes. Personally I would have thought that the circumstances you describe would justify changes to service times. You will need to accept that they are only temporary until your pastoral re-organisation is complete and all the parishes involved will have to consider service times.

Is it possible to discuss this with your rural/area dean?

John

I agree with your interpretation of the Rules. Rule 11(6) says that electors have as many votes as there are seats to be filled, but nowhere is there a requirement on electors to use all their votes.

Peter,

Thanks for your confirmation. It seemed a very odd reason for disqualification. In voting for candidates in other organisations I frequently use less that my full votes - indeed it is a recognised way of "tactical voting".

I don't know whether you can help me on this, but, could you let me know the actual dates that incorporate Rogationtide. Being a rural parish, we held our Rogation Sunday service on the 21 April. Some members of our PCC have complained that this is too early. Please can you let me know.

John Hibbert

I do not know whether you can answer this question but, from which date can Rogationtide be celebrated. We are a rural parish and celebrated this on the 21 April. Some members of our PCC are complaining that this was too early.

John Hibbert

The Book of Common Prayer gives the Rogation Days as the Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday before the Ascension. In 2008 that's 28, 29 and 30 April. Although not in the BCP Rogation Sunday will be the Sunday before, ie 27 April. That's the 5th Sunday AFTER Easter in the BCP calendar or the 6th Sunday OF Easter in the Common Worship calendar.

Last year I was co-opted to the PCC. This year I am up for election. There are members of the church who say I am not eligible, is this true?
Also another member of the church finished her term as the deanery synod rep.this year She was nominated and seconded to stand again and was re-elected at the AGM , there is a move to object to her re-election despite the fact that the AGM agreed it. Can this happen or is it likely that she will be asked to stand down.
Fiona Cullen

Re. casual vacancies on the PCC. I've found CRR rule No. 48(1) which says that the PCC may fill a casual vacancy for a parochial representative elected to the PCC "by the election by the parochial church council of a person qualified to be so elected".

There doesn't appear to be anything laying down how this is done (Rule 11 does not apply), presumably if everyone is agreed on what is to be done we just pass a resolution to elect that person to fill the casual vacancy.

(The background is that we had one more candidate than PCC posts to be filled at the APCM, however one of the newly elected Deanery Synod members is also an elected PCC member with a couple of years left to serve, she was not present at the APCM but it is possible she may resign from her elected PCC place to allow us to make room for the PCC to elect the unsuccessful PCC candidate. If you see what I mean.)

Fiona

Being a co-opted member of the PCC does not stop you from elected to the PCC at the Annual Meeting. In any case your co-option automatically expired at the end of the Annual Meeting, although there is nothing to stop PCCs co-opting the same person again year after year.

Richard

In the absence of specific instructions on how to carry out an election by the PCC I think you should carry it out as nearly as possible in the same way as elections at the annual meeting. So you put it on the agenda and invite nominations from PCC members. If the number of nominations is equal to or less than the number of vacancies then those nominated are elected. Otherwise you hold an election. As at the annual meeting this can be by show of hands or by ballot paper.

You will notice that the rule does not require the PCC to fill casual vacancies amongst its ordinary members, so the first thing for the PCC to do is to decide whether or not to fill any vacancies.

Can an incumbent chair the APCM and act as teller for the vote count for elections to deanery synod and PCC?

Is it possible to be co-opted onto Deanery Pastoral Committee without being a member of deanery synod?

Jeff

If he or she is present the minister is required to preside at the annual meeting.

The rules are silent on who counts the votes (unless there is to be postal voting), but they do say that the meeting has the power to determine its own rules of procedure. To me that implies that it is up to the meeting to decide who counts the votes, and nobody is automatically excluded.

If postal votes are allowed the meeting must "appoint a presiding officer who shall not be a candidate in the election", but there is no other restriction.

So far as I am aware deanery pastoral committees have no legal status, so their composition is a local matter. Your diocesan synod has power to set the composition, but if it does not then it is up to deanery.

In my own deanery each parish is asked to provide one representative on the deanery pastoral committee. Several of these reps are not members of the deanery synod.

Please can you help us. We are a church that at present is in an interregnum. We have just held our A.G.M. meeting and both myself and our other Churchwarden are not standing again as wardens. This is due to both of us having personal reasons seperate from the Church which meant that neither of us could could continue in our role as wardens.
Unfortunately nobody else wanted to stand as warden and we have been informed that we might have to carry on as warden whether we like it or not. This has not gone down too well as we have had a very hectic 2 years in which we have dealt with a Sabbatical in our first year followed by an interregnum in our 2nd year as well as over seeing a lot of building work to our church. Can you tell us where we stand as wardens and whether we can be forced to continue in our role, especially as we have not been re-elected as such.
Thank you. Ray.T

Ray

Under the Churchwardens Measure 2001 churchwardens stay in office until their successors are admitted by the archdeacon or the 31 July following the annual meeting, whichever is earlier. So you and your colleague will cease to be churchwardens on 31 July 2008.

You can resign by giving two months notice in writing to the bishop. The bishop cannot refuse your resignation. If you want to resign with less than two month's notice you require the bishop's agreement.

It used to be the case that churchwardens had to stay in office indefinitely if no successors were elected and could not resign, but the 2001 Measure changed this.

At the ACPM someone who still has a year to run as an elected PCC member is elected to Deanery Synod. Ought the decision be taken at the meeting whether or not the elected place should be given up? If the decision is taken later does the vacant PCC place go to the person with the most votes who was not elected at the ACPM?

Jeff

It is for the person who has been elected to the deanery synod to decide whether or not to resign their ordinary elected position on the PCC. No one else can make this decision. There is nothing in the rules to stop somebody being on the PCC in two (or more) capacities.

If the person does resign this leaves a casual vacancy on the PCC. Unless a casual vacancy arises less than two months before the next APCM then the PCC may (but does not have to) elect someone to fill the vacancy. The PCC can elect anyone eligible to be elected to the PCC.

This is a wonderfully informative site. On 30/03/08, Richard asked the question concerning being a Diocesan synod member and where one therefore stood re: ex-officio posts on PCC and Deanary Synod. I know that Rule 14 (1)f covers the situation concerning the PCC ex-officio post but which rule covers the ex-officio Deanery synod post, please? Many thanks in anticipation.
Ted

Ted

Rule 24(6)
Subject to the provisions of rule 1(4), the members of the house of laity of a deanery synod shall consist of the following persons, that is to say -
(a) ...;
(b) any lay members of the General Synod a diocesan synod or an area synod constituted in accordance with section 17 of the Dioceses Measure 1978 whose names are entered on the roll of any parish in the deanery;

[Rule 1(4) deals with people on more than one electoral roll, who must chose one of these rolls for the above purpose.]

Rule 24(2)(c) has the corresponding provision for the clergy.

Peter,
Many thanks
Ted

Can you please tell me if there is any rule governing how long before the next meeting the minutes of the previous meeting should be with the PCC members. Our meetings are held every other month and the publication of the minutes has been getting later and later; so much so that this month they will not be available until the meeting itself. I feel that two months is a long time to verify accurately what transpired at the last meeting.

Celia

The Church Representation Rules have an Appendix II of "General Provisions relating to PCCs". Section 12 of this is about the minutes. This does say that "Minutes of meetings of the council shall be available to all members of the Council." but it does not say when. So whilst the lateness of your minutes is unsatisfactory (to say the least), I don't think it actually breaks any rules.

Peter,
Thanks for that.
Celia

In our Benefice we have 3 churches and 3 PCCs.
Apart from the rector there is one retired priest with PTO for the benefice who lives in our parish.
We have a Deacon who lives in one of the other 2 parishes.
And we have 2 Lay Readers who also live in one of the other 2 parishes.
All these people are members of our PCC.

Which of these people are co-opted, who is ex-officio and who has voting rights?

Erika

I cannot fully answer your question as part of the answer depends on decisions made locally. I am also assuming that your parish is not part of a team ministry.

Your rector is a member of your PCC since (I assume) he/she is "beneficed in or licensed to the parish".

If the deacon is licensed to your parish then he/she is also a member of the PCC.

Having PTO does not make a priest an ex officio member of the PCC.

It is up to the annual meeting to decide which, if any, of the readers licensed to your parish are ex officio members of the PCC. Such readers must be on your electoral roll.

The PCC can co-opt clerks in holy orders and actual lay communicants. The maximum number of co-opted members is one-third of the "ordinary" elected members of the PCC, or two, whichever is greater.

Co-opted and ex officio members are members of the PCC with the same rights as any elected member. There is no such thing as a PCC member without voting rights. You may, though, have non-members "in attendance". For example in some parishes the PCC secretary is not a member of the PCC but obviously attends the meetings.

Peter

Thank you very much for your reply. Can I ask a further question please?

The question arose because the clerks in holy order and the lay readers are not elected members of the PCC. During one year we called the retired priest and deacon ex-officio and the readers co-opted, but then got into difficulties when we needed to co-opt another person onto the PCC because we are only allowed 2 co-options.

Re voting rights: the lay readers and the deacon are also members of their own parish PCCs. Does this then mean they can vote on several PCCs or only on the one for their own parish?