Monday, 18 December 2006
See Dave Walker’s take on The conservative evangelical ‘covenant’.
Update And I also want to second his commendation of the splendid comment about all this by Paul Roberts which you can find at A lament for Evangelicalism.
Posted by Simon Sarmiento on
Monday, 18 December 2006 at 2:25pm GMT
You can make a Permalink to this if you like
Church of England
Simon had linked to this article earlier. I thought he had and went back browsing before doing the last posting, but not far enough. If you didn't read it last time, do make the effort this time...
The back-and-forth comments on Dave Walker's blog article are also worth reading.
I hadn't realized that Anglican Mainstream has also developed the habit of signing other people's names to manifestos and communiques they have not seen, much less approved.
This is becoming a common tactic of the extreme Anglican right.
I have to say I don't understand why, since it's easily exposed, damages their credibility, and alienates their potential supporters.
I think the "Covenant" is more a list of complaints and resolutions than a proposed alternative to the Anglican Covenant. However I don't think that the Archbishop should let himself think that this isn't meant to be taken very seriously... Many people in the CofE would agree with most of the points that they made, as is [possibly] confirmed by the vote about it on the Church Times website: http://www.churchtimes.co.uk/previousQuestions.asp?id=222
ps For TEC folk: CTimes is the CofE 'establishment' newspaper; Church of England Newspaper is the more evangelical (and older) one.
pps Almost unnoticed, it seems, the conservative high church folk at Forward in Faith are also going about rebelling against the existing heirachy - by setting up their version of a new covenant in the form of Bishops not recognised by Canterbury: http://www.forwardinfaith.com/artman/publish/article_345.shtml
"ps For TEC folk: CTimes is the CofE 'establishment' newspaper; Church of England Newspaper is the more evangelical (and older) one."
Don't worry Dave (any of them), we have been told...
'The Church Times' is the establishment newspaper:
That is precisely the point. The powers that be want nothing more than to get the church onside. To get bishops opposing pro-life from the House of Lords. And so on.
In the days of Jesus the high priests and Sadducees had for some time been 'onside' with the secular authorities, and appointments were made accordingly. The fact that C of E bishops are partly appointed by the state (plus the old-school-tie factor, thankfully diminishing now)explains why in this denomination alone some leaders are secular as opposed to sacred.
In the same tradition, the CT is semi-Christian, semi-heritage. If anyone wanted to try justify having an establishment newspaper, or establishment bishops, they would have a difficult job. There is nothing inherently praiseworthy about defending the status quo: the status quo was only imposed in a self-serving way by the powerful in the first place.
I appreciated very much, Christopher Shell's argument for gay rights.
I'm against the establishment of the Church of England; it would be healthier set free. Bishops should be elected, to be given the old hands on the head by existing ones.
However, the State connection has been a double bind. The parish priests so often put in amongst the rural locals from their university background, and often elite university education, were seen as establishment figures from a different world. When the urban centres came along, they had next to nothing to say to the developed working class, other than to shave off minorities. Later on the middle class more and more decided to depart too.
So these ministers high and low had to try to relate to the people somehow, even if they didn't. This is one explanation for meeting the secular world half way - and a few superstitions, some Christianised and some rites in decline.
That's the sociology.
At the same time, there is a real theological development from biblical criticism, the history of doctrines, the awareness of diversity in early Christianity, the rediscovery of the Jewishness and last days impetus of Jesus, and the universalising of "stranger" Paul and last days. We know that the Reformation uncovered different elements in early Christianity, the place of Greek culture and Roman power, and symbolism and postmodernism separates liturgy and belief into a more explicit orthopraxy not orthodoxy with insights into language and metaphor.
These movements also have the right to ecclesiastical expression.
Dr Shell opined
The fact that C of E bishops are partly appointed by the state (plus the old-school-tie factor, thankfully diminishing now)explains why in this denomination alone some leaders are secular as opposed to sacred.
Eh? Don't quite know who you mean. Church Commissioners? enlighten me - or are you making calculations as to the genuineness of faith of the ones you don't agree with?
"and symbolism and postmodernism separates liturgy and belief into a more explicit orthopraxy not orthodoxy with insights into language and metaphor."
Blimey! I'm going to have to put a lot more work into my midnight mass sermon than I'd intended, Dr. W...!
Which argument was that?
Don't worry, Rev. Mynsterpreost, regarding your later sermon, as I do have moments of rest and sleep, though usually and unfortunately not at midnight. I suggest perhaps other issues then, such as a contrast between the sharp sermon that is like using a car going directly from A to B, and the developed sermon that is like using public transport when visiting the sick in different hospitals: changing tack, going in unusal directions against the grain, stopping along the way to pick people up and lose some others, lurching from one point to another, being close to other people - including those one might wish to avoid, getting stuck and not making progress, missing the stop, getting out at the wrong place, and then at the end having to cross a chasm between one society and the other. (Yes there is a private joke in this lot but it might make some general sense to others)
For those intrigued by pluralist's references, I made the mistake yesterday of trying to reduce my 'carbon footprint' by using public transport for hospital visiting.
Two hospitals in one city of 300,000 , one on the north-western, other on the north-eastern edge, perhaps five miles away. Dropped off at hospital 1 at 10.15, got home at 18.10, total contact time with the sick, 90 minutes....