Giles Fraser right on the money again. Excellent analysis of the situation.

I remember my Evangelcal childhood (in the Brethren). I couldnt understand the disputes, and fallings-out then or now. Thre wree the pre and the post Millenarianists --"Will Christ come before or eafter the Great Tribulation ?" was the burning question. They poured over the last book in the NT for anw=swers--as if it all made any sense ! Who cares any way ? I didn't. I don't. (I don't even accept their premises).

Then there was glossolalia ! The young people of the meeting started attedning exotic mid-week meetindgs and speaking in tongues. (well, if sex and even petting, and dancing,the pictures and pubs and discos, is out then you need your religion , pepped up a bit, perhaps ?! Those who wouldnt relent on tongues were "read-out" --i.e thrown out.

Then there was a nice man called Len who suddenly vanished. There were murmourings (i as a teen wasn't meant to (over-)hear)about "homosexuality". I'd never heard the word before, and wondered why it had to be whispered.

I am still wondering....

"They purchase their togetherness with the suffering of gay Christians, especially in places such as Nigeria, where the church is egging on a violent and aggressive homophobia. It's textbook scapegoating." Giles Fraser

Verdad? +Akinola continues to "miss the point" when being of "service" to his fellow Anglicans by endorsing anti-Human Rights laws against LGBT Christians/Muslims "right to assemble" in Nigeria...is this the "pieces of silver" price this man is willing to pay for a cameo role in a very badly scripted human drama that will kill LGBT human beings through legalized hate crimes?

To love oneanother or outcast oneanother, that is the REAL question +Akinola need answer as he attempts to import and export difference and hate.

"I wonder where they'll pass the time while the rest of us are feasting together as the gathered Body of Christ?" Scott Gunn

Plotting, plotting and more plotting against fellow Anglicans and "other" fellow human beings...certainly they'll find a better approach to fear and hate than listening to the sound of their own voices...praying helps.

Very good coverage. Thanks for all the diverse comments

Keep it up.

(Fr) Graeme Watson

"Holding one another in 'check'?"

"Mutual accountability?"

Projecting items for the "Anglican Covenant" +Drexel Gomez

Perhaps we should start the process with a Grand Jury investigation of the Primate "participants."

This is pie in the sky thinking/believing when +Akinola and +Orombi and +Venables are crossing diocesean boundries and creating non-accountability and hate/fearmongering against fellow Episcopalians and Anglicans daily...in addition +Akinola continues to show NO RESPECT or even a basic interest in SAFETY for LGBT Anglicans in Nigeria by endorsing pending legislation against "assembly" of LGBT Anglicans, their families, their loved ones and their supporters.

I don't read, nor hear, ANY request for "restraint" as the Windsor Report requested...where is the "intention" for the honorability/accountability that should be DEMANDED from the "Convenant Seekers" as they DEMAND compliance/restraint from the Episcopal Church! Where are their signatures to STOP their defiance and greedy behavior?

These "covenant" seekers are maxing out someone elses credit cards and then declaring moral bankruptcy before showing any desire to love one another and RESPECT one another at The Body of Christ...accountability? Forget it!

The Daily Telegraph opinion is second class stuff. One thing that emerges here is that there has been nothing on TV news, precious little on the radio, adn the news has been analysed through the Internet - much repetition but some keen analysis. One consideration towards whether to chuck out all TV equipment when the next licence is due.

Giles Fraser is a bit OTT - against his argument is the Fulcrum position. They are quite torn apart, pushed in two directions at once. N T Wright (of that position) now looks rather silly, having attacked the Reform and friends' Covenant and then bashed at the American Church with apparent knowledge of his "good friend" Rowan Williams, who no one would push around, only to find Rowan Williams with others had constructed a document of a rather different kind. Nazir-Ali and Scott-Joynt are in another world, completely sidelined.

The ball, basically, is in Nigeria's court, and a test of its strength and those in the Global South it can still count on, because it is in deep - deep in Virginia for a start. If they carry on there, the Americans may well resume more imclusive approaches, and after all it is not a communion that decides suddenly to move on, it is actual Churches - as with ordaining women to priests and bishops. The Covenant has to allow for a process of change, and I can't see Nigeria and what remains agreeing to this.

They might have a few extra crumbs tossed their way, maybe via the delay to this Covenant, but it doesn't alter the balance of things. Nigeria and company are needing to regroup. Their action over the eucharist, adn being in too deep, suggests they will.

What's the betting that when the Covenant proposals get sent to the bishops electronically before release to the public that they shall leak?

Why is this even a story? The Seven Who Stayed Away said they weren't even going to sit at the same conference table with Bp. Schori, so why are we surprised they won't receive Communion with her?

Puzzled am I.

I wonder whether many Primates are being charmed into accepting inaction “today” on the WR response by the promise of greater consensus on action “tomorrow” via the Covenant ? If so I would like to point out to them that they were already persuaded once to not act over GC2003 because of the consensus through WR, and the same arguemnet could be used again and again over the Covenant if it doesn't also suffer a liberal “once over”.

The holding out of a consensus way forward might seem attractive to Anglicans (who prefer to find ways to maximise communion) but it could easily just become just a manouvre to delay and avoid any sanctions against TEC.

“Orthodoxy yesterday and Orthodoxy tomorrow, but NEVER Orthodoxy today”…

Those are waves gently splashing up against the side of the Tiber. It sure looks nice over there.

Wasn't that a marvelous interview Reuters did with Davis Mac-Iyalla? I'm very impressed with his witness in the face of death threats and hatred.

It doesn't appear that the Holy Spirit has anointed the Anglican Communion of Nigeria-Virginia at all, while Davis and Katharine Jefferts Schori are bearing up just fine.

From the NYtimes article: "conservative Anglicans said they were starting to despair that the meeting here would produce neither of their goals:"

Well there's a surprise. If you want to cause a stink, you have to show up at the party.

This relative lull in the loud conservative realignment storm is most welcome. Just don't count on the winds of controversy dying down that much for that long, because the safest prediction is that conservative realignment folks will hunker down and come up with some additional condemnations to throw at the rest of us in Jesus' name.

That round will be welcome, too, since I have decided for the time being that rock throwers must throw rocks until we all realize that rock throwing is their calling in life and world and church.

Meanwhile, the rest of the planet is slowly moving on, step by step by step, into a less dead-ended set of corners than all this antigay stuff pledges. Consider the learnings and conversations now evoked by John Amaechi coming out, and Charles Barkely and Shaquille ONeal supporting, and Tim Hardaway wishing gays off the team and out of the country and off the planet (just like the conservative realignment believers?).

And the interview with MacIyalla going out all over the world, unable to be abridged or prevented by Akinola, Minns, Anderson, and company.

Enjoy the lull and the sunshine breaking through all the conservative realignment storm clouds, then, and don't loosen your seatbelts too much because we continue to sail stormy church seas.

Thanks to Canada's Primate Huthinson in his blog for saying the obvious, non-conservatively realigned Anglican things that still need to be said in public. Just keep doing the right things to the best of your fallible abilities.

“Those are waves gently splashing up against the side of the Tiber. It sure looks nice over there.”— Allan

I’m sure it does look nice to you Allan. But, be careful of that stuff floating on the surface; and, there’s the smell, of course.

Josh: "It doesn't appear that the Holy Spirit has anointed the Anglican Communion of Nigeria-Virginia at all"

Might want to be careful what you say here. I'm sure Akinola gets plenty of death threats. And martyrdom isn't exactly foreign to any of the global south primates. Also, I am aware that this isn't the only consideration, but it is a consideration, Nigeria is the fastest growing province in the Anglican communion, and the Nigerian churches in Virginia were until they left in the top ten in attendance in the USA. As I said, growth isn't the only indication of health, but it certainly is an indication of blessing.

Petre's comment "...liberal Westerners, meanwhile, are trying to stem haemorrhaging congregations by absorbing secular values" made me chuckle.

My understanding of history is that bold Christians were involved in the development of the secular state model. It's just that part of history has been white-washed over for a few decades because it smelt a lit bit of "communism".

Drdanfee, I read your comment "Meanwhile, the rest of the planet is slowly moving on, step by step by step, into a less dead-ended set of corners.." after having finished my daily browse of my favourite internet sites. I loved this article http://www.algemeiner.com/generic.asp?ID=3034 which has gone up over the weekend.

It includes "The logical fact is that true logic is built on the supralogical. Now the supralogical is not the same as illogical. The illogical is beneath logic – plain stupidity. Supralogical is above logic, preceding logic. The most logical thing of all is that something precedes logic." and concludes "True sanity means embracing the world beyond logic.

So let's do something not logical together: Let us defy all the fear and insecurity around us by passionately embracing our absolute foundation of faith in G-d. Let us crawl out of our comfort zones and shake up the world a little – with a revolution of goodness. For every negative thought you have, counter it with two positive actions. As we witness wild behavior of different sorts, let it inspire us to go beyond our own norms of kindness. Instead of doing the logical thing – being overwhelmed by all the uncertainty, or battling fire with fire, let us transcend our logic and just become better people.

It may be the most logical thing we have ever done."

This is why God has never respected the scribes to rule by their own authority (Jeremiah 5:31), because God's ways are higher than precedent or what has been done before (Isaiah 55:8-9) 1 Corinthians 2:3-5, Apostle Paul came in fear and trembling not seeking to win us with men's wisdom but trusting in God's power.

God knows that being kind to one another is the most scripturally and spiritually valid thing we could be doing right now.

“Orthodoxy yesterday and Orthodoxy tomorrow, but NEVER Orthodoxy today”…

Dave’s got a point ;=)

(but then, being anti-modern has nothing to do with being “orthodox” – most anti-moderns are manifestly very modern and late modern).

“… the safest prediction is that conservative realignment folks will hunker down and come up with some additional condemnations to throw at the rest of us in Jesus' name.”

But they have already lost part of their credibility – every thing they do from now on will make them lose more of it.

'..the primate's personal views on the nature of the Eucharist and the theological significance of receiving the sacraments. The Global South coalition contains a wide range of theological views from Anglo-Catholic to low-church Evangelical, the leader said. ..'

Diversity on the central Christian mystery /

So why not be honest about their diversity on seualities ? Why not recognize two integrieites ? !

James Crocker wrote to Josh Thomas: "Might want to be careful what you say here. I'm sure Akinola gets plenty of death threats. And martyrdom isn't exactly foreign to any of the global south primates."

Sorry James, but where did you get martyrdom from? Canon Tundes libel against Mr Mac-Iyalla? The pending Nigerian legislation, much promoted by the Nigerian Primate's Office?

Seeker asked:
So why not be honest about their diversity on seualities ? Why not recognize two integrieites ? !

A cynic would reply that you can get people all stirred up about 'family values' and even tap into funding, whereas a disagreement over transubstantiation/transignification/receptionism/tokenism and the rest would just about make an article on page 47 of the Church Times. In a quiet week, that is. And, of course, such a discussin would show many (though not all) self-styled reasserters to be at variance with ancient Christian teaching........

Exactly, David. Not too many conservative American billionaires will donate money to put forward a Defence of Eucharist Act, or indeed, and act to protect any sacrament other than marriage.

Now, now, Kurt: if things look nice on the far side of the Tiber for Allan (or anyone else) they're welcome to it. No need to diss Rome, just because. [Now, dissing Rome because they (pay to) violate my *civil rights* is another kettle of stinkin' fish, entirely! >:-0]

Besides, we get the cream of the Roman crop, "swimming the Thames" the other way! :-D

*****

Re the Primates Meeting---

Thus far, Rev. Susan Russell's headline of a year ago (or more) looks solid: "what if they gave a schism, and nobody came?"

From my prog Episcopal POV, I'm reminded of the Paul Simon song:

"When something goes wrong,
I'm the first to admit it.
The first to admit it,
And the last one to know.

But when something goes right,
It's likely to lose me.
It's bound to confuse me.
It's such an unusual sight.

Just can't get used to something so right!"

;-)

Alleluia!

James: I'm not even sure about growth being an indication of blessing. Tesco (the UK supermarket chain, think Wal-Mart but without the ethical edge) is 'growing' its market share.... Ronald McDonald is hardly the world's greatest purveyor of eco-friendly nutritious foodstuffs....

There is a lot of naivety in this 'African growth' stuff, and we risk ending up with a Dutch auction of who can be toughest on perceived deviants, Islam or Christianity, in an attempt to corner the market in converts.

Like I often lament, why are there so few Christian sociologists and anthropologists?

As for the martyrdom 'thing' among GS primates: wherever the faith encounters tyranny you get martyrs and you get collaborators (as with +Harare). It's not a GS peculiarity except that at the moment most tyrants are in power in GS set-ups. Thre's also a risk that the opposition to tyranny is reactionary, as some might argue the Polish RC church became during the 'Solidarity' years, rather than transformative and radical.

It is either (I guess) a low view of human integrity or a pan-psychologism that makes Giles Fraser attribute to hatred what could equally be attributed to conviction, to conclusions one has come to.
Which agegroup interprets everything in terms of emotions and nothing in terms of reason? Adolescents? Children?

And which age group takes everything at face value? Not that the face value of a lot of conservative actions is any great shakes. Leaving aside the fact that the left is not guiltless, do you really not see hatred in the actions of the Right? I'm not trying to say that a belief that homosexuality is sinful can be called hatred. But look at the other actions, look at the bunker mentality with its inherent false witness, look at the hatred, anger, and suspicion engendered in the simple person in the pew. I have heard far more of these things from Conservatives, especially Evangelicals, than I have ever heard from the Left. What breeds that kind of hatred in the ordinary person in the pew? What nurtures it? What leads ordinary Christians to claim that those who do not agree with them are faithless, to gloat over declining congregations, to claim their fellow Christians have "polluted minds", to create the fiction of a homogenous camp of "revisionists" who are claimed to believe the heresies of a few, and who are then attacked at every turn with obvious hatred? Are these the fruits of the Gospel? When I see these things fostered in those who would style themselves "orthodox", I think "By their fruits you shall know them".

Point taken, JCF. Actually, many of my Christian heroes are/were members of the Roman Church. I just don’t understand why anyone would want to join such an authoritarian organization.

Hatred is the necessary newtonian equal-and-opposite obverse of love.
The amount one loves God is liable to be connected to the amount one hates the devil.
The amount one loves one's child (or even the church) is intimately connected to the amount one hates anything that is working against the best interests of that child (or church): anything that could cause her harm.

There is no alternative to hating anything sinful and hurtful, even hating it a lot. The alternatives are three:
(a) being indifferent to it (which is psychotic);
(b) loving it (which is something like the sin against the HS);
(c) hating it mildly, which would be bland, feeble and passionless.

Give me a break, Christopher. Hatred isn't so much the opposite of love as it is the child of fear. Surely our love of God is better predicated on our being overwhelmed by His profligate love for us than in any hatred of the Devil. Likewise, love of one's child is surely in response to the child rather than in response to what you fear as endangering the child. Jesus tells us not to fear. Odd that that seems to be "a Scripture" happily skipped over by Evangelicals. And there is an alternative to hatred of anything sinful and hurtful: the transformational love of Christ manifested in us. It doesn't mean we have to accept sin, but hating it will just prevent us from letting the transforming love of Christ do its work in the sinner. That's why I reject this "hate the sin, love the sinner" nonsense. We human beings find it very difficult not to conflate the sin with the sinner, and end up hating both. If you stick by that little slogan, you can even kid yourself that you don't really hate the sinner, which, of course, is just what happens.