Friday, 28 September 2007

Church Times reports on New Orleans

Today’s Church Times has two news reports on the American House of Bishops meeting, and editorial comment.

Pat Ashworth
US Bishops reach agreement over gays and blessings
House wrestles for two days to find right words

Leader: Walking together and walking apart

And also:

Conservative groups meet in Pittsburgh

Giles Fraser: The real covenant of baptism is what matters

Posted by Simon Sarmiento on Friday, 28 September 2007 at 7:59am BST | TrackBack
You can make a Permalink to this if you like
Categorised as: ECUSA
Comments

Giles Fraser: "... Jenkins... spoke of the floods… like being “baptised with dirty water”... The whole point of the Reformation was to deny that access to God had to pass through the narrow weir of a restricted church order…. God can come to us all...."

Corroborating biblical passages for Fraser and Jesus include:

Zechariah 12:8 “… the LORD will shield… so that the feeblest among them will be like David...”

Isaiah 30:19-21 “… your teachers will be hidden no more… your ears will hear a voice behind you, saying, “This is the way; walk in it.”

Ezekiel 12:21-28 "...what is this proverb you have in the land of Israel: ‘The days go by and every vision comes to nothing’? … ‘I am going to put an end to this proverb… The days are near when every vision will be fulfilled. For there will be no more false visions or flattering divinations…. “…the house of Israel is saying, ‘The vision he sees is for many years from now, and he prophesies about the distant future.’ “Therefore say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: None of my words will be delayed any longer; whatever I say will be fulfilled...’ ”

Isaiah 23:17-32 "… which of them has stood in the council of the LORD to see or to hear his word?... “Am I only a God nearby,” declares the LORD, “and not a God far away? Can anyone hide in secret places so that I cannot see him?” declares the LORD... How long will this continue in the hearts of these lying prophets…? They think the dreams they tell one another will make my people forget my name … “Therefore,” declares the LORD, “I am against the prophets who steal from one another words supposedly from me…”

Or. Isaiah 33:10-24 or 46:3-13: "... “To whom will you compare me or count me equal?... “Remember this… you rebels. Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and… I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand … I am bringing my righteousness near, it is not far away …" or 45:18-25 “…I have not spoken in secret…I… speak the truth; I declare what is right... Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past?…”

Posted by: Cheryl Va. Clough on Friday, 28 September 2007 at 11:44am BST

Clearest analysis I have seen so far on the TEC HOB response to AC questions

http://www.fulcrum-anglican.org.uk/page.cfm?ID=237

Posted by: NP on Friday, 28 September 2007 at 12:04pm BST

Meanwhile Ruth Gledhill chooses her language carefully:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2543190.ece

"says world's most powerful Anglican"

Power... ah so this is what it is about.

Posted by: Pluralist on Friday, 28 September 2007 at 2:25pm BST

The Giles Fraser column affirms the direction my response, as a gay to man, to the bishops. I am thinking about resigning from the Episcopal Church and becoming free-lance baptized Christian. I could still take communion with my friends at my current church, but I wouldn't have to take on the name of the human institution which, on paper, says I have a disorder which cuts me off from two of the sacraments.

It's interesting to speculate what simply being a baptized Christian would feel like--something like a Samaritan, I suspect, picking up crumbs here and there from the table of those who have access to all of Christ's blessings.

I would wander, looking forward to the day when I find a Christian community who makes good on their vow to support me in my Christian life and which fulfills the promise of full inclusion which I was promised at my baptism.

Posted by: James on Friday, 28 September 2007 at 3:13pm BST

But then, Power is what it's been about from the git-go, isn't it Pluralist? As to "most powerful Anglican", let's give it a few months - remember Croesus and Solon. Hubris is now in full flood.

Love Martin Reynolds' comment - "The schism will continue and I predict by this time next year, every disappointed American cleric who wants to be a bishop, will have his wish". "Every disappointed American cleric" - love it.

Posted by: Lapinbizarre on Friday, 28 September 2007 at 6:25pm BST

How powerful is my lord of Abuja?

He is certainly NOT the world's "most powerful" Anglican.

If he were that powerful, he wouldn't have to say people were signatories of documents when they weren't. He wouldn't need to fear defeat at the impending Lambeth - which he clearly does since he is pressing to have it postponed. He wouldn't need to support laws which would imprison anyone who disagrees with him.

Akinola, like so many other tyrants an bullies in history, is a profoundly frightened little boy.

Posted by: Malcolm+ on Friday, 28 September 2007 at 6:44pm BST

Get yourself a few TEC parishes like Truro and Falls Church and Akinola has probably the entire running opersations for the Church of Nigeria.
Truro and Falls Church income combine was probably more than the global souths combine.
Lots of money to be made in America.

Posted by: BobinSwPA on Friday, 28 September 2007 at 7:00pm BST

I think the HoB was right essentially to say, "We have no authority to alter the decisions of General Convention."

This has led to the puritans voting to "walk apart":
http://tinyurl.com/2g52dr

Now if the primates who already claim parishes here (Akinola, Orombi, Kolini, Nzimbi & Venables -- have I left anyone out?) disassociate themselves from the WWAC to take this people under their wing, things should move along more briskly.

Posted by: Prior Aelred on Friday, 28 September 2007 at 8:09pm BST

I would have thought the "world's most powerful Anglican" was Queen Elizabeth...."

Posted by: Pat O'Neill on Friday, 28 September 2007 at 10:11pm BST

BobinSwPA,

Nigeria decided long ago not to accept any money from Truro, Falls Church, and the rest of CANA.

Nigeria is giving sacrificially to orthodox Americans and not accepting anything in return.

Selah.

Posted by: selah on Friday, 28 September 2007 at 11:32pm BST

"I would have thought the "world's most powerful Anglican" was Queen Elizabeth...."

Not when she's in Scotland, when she morphs into a Presbyterian.

Posted by: Mynsterpreost (=David Rowett) on Friday, 28 September 2007 at 11:55pm BST

Worldly people can not imagine an end to tyranny, so they look to curry favors from authority figures e.g. Luke 20:20 or John 19:10-11.

2 Timothy 3:1-9 “People will be lovers of themselves… abusive… slanderous…having a form of godliness but denying its power…. their folly will be clear to everyone.” See also Micah 2:1-11. Romans 9:17-26 “…who are you, O man, to talk back to God? …Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? …“It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’ ” see also 2 Corinthians 4:4-18 “…we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God…”

1 Corinthians 4:18-21 “Some of you have become arrogant, as if I were not coming to you. But I will come … What do you prefer? Shall I come to you with a whip, or in love and with a gentle spirit?”

2 Corinthians 10:3-18 “…we do not wage war as the world does… We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God…We will confine our boasting to the field God has assigned to us, a field that reaches even to you…. Neither do we go beyond our limits by boasting of work done by others… it is not the one who commends himself who is approved, but the one whom the Lord commends.”

Zechariah 4:6-14 ‘Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,’ …O mighty mountain … you will become level ground. Then he will bring out the capstone…” Acts 4:5-11 Jesus is that capstone who is backed by the cherubim of the ark; Hebrews 8:8 to 9:28 alludes to this mystery and Jesus is the man in linen in Ezekiel 10. See also 2 Corinthians 12:9-10; 1 Corinthians 15:53-57; 2 Corinthians 2:1-5; Romans 1:14-17 or 1 Corinthians 1:18-31 “ …God made foolish the wisdom of the world… we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block… the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength. … God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly… and…despised…”

Posted by: Cheryl Va. Clough on Saturday, 29 September 2007 at 12:10am BST

Selah. Google and read "Following the Money" by Jim Naughton. And watch the interview that Archbishop Orimbi gave to Anglican TV, where he says of the American conservatives "..... they give us money. Oh they give us money. Since we began to relate with our orthodox brethren they have given us much more money, much more money, oh yeah, much more money. They have given us more money". Orombi seems quite taken with American money.

http://www.anglicantv.org/blog/index.cfm/2007/9/9/Archbishop-Henry-Orombi

Posted by: Lapinbizarre on Saturday, 29 September 2007 at 12:51am BST

Selah wrote: "Nigeria decided long ago not to accept any money from Truro, Falls Church, and the rest of CANA."

Can you substantiate that?

Posted by: Göran Koch-Swahne on Saturday, 29 September 2007 at 8:18am BST

"orthodox Americans"

I'm sure our Greek and Slavic brethren are quite grateful, but I have to wonder why the very Evangelical Church in Nigeria is generous to people whose theology is so antithetical to their own. In the meetings that must have preceded this generosity, did +Akinola meet with the Metropolitan of OCA, or are they giving sacrificially to those are still under the omophorion of a continental bishop? They do need our help, what with their sad divisions that stem from the Eastern Bloc politics of the first 50 years or so of the past century. Did they worship together? Most tittilating for me, did +Peter venerate an icon while in the metropolitan's cathedral? All the same, they are to be commended for their ecumenism in reaching out to help the flock of Constantinople!

Posted by: Ford Elms on Saturday, 29 September 2007 at 2:10pm BST

Ford, one of the sadder casualties of all this is the perfectly honorable word "orthodox," which has come to mean "fundamentalist." That's a pity.

Posted by: JPM on Sunday, 30 September 2007 at 3:10pm BST
Post a comment









Remember personal info?

Please note that comments are limited to 400 words. Comments that are longer than 400 words will not be approved.

Cookies are used to remember your personal information between visits to the site. This information is stored on your computer and used to refill the text boxes on your next visit. Any cookie is deleted if you select 'No'. By ticking 'Yes' you agree to this use of a cookie by this site. No third-party cookies are used, and cookies are not used for analytical, advertising, or other purposes.