Actually, hidden in the presentation is the difficulty they now have in overcoming the different lines of authority they have up above. They have a real problem with co-ordination. What they will find most difficult is producing what they should have planned for, to be effective - one clear denominational alternative.

Which brings us to the UK. One thing the planners for the incursions here will want to do - and why an ultimatum is too early - is to try and have a consistent other Church, with one line of authority and one Covenant, one identity and one clear co-ordination. Presumably one effort early on would be to speak to and agree terms with some of the already Protestant breakaways that are linked to the Church Society. Otherwise they will want clear authority and it will be a mess before it gets going. The US example is something that Reform would want to avoid.

Maybe we need a new Anglican church in the US as TEC USA does not seem to be doing a good job at all.....

44% of Americans go to church.....so why is "inclusive", in-touch, modern, welcoming TEC USA declining so pathetically (with half its clergy set to retire in the next 10 years?)????

Here are some numbers:
http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=6805

So, if there are already all these conservative evangelical churches for Americans to attend - why create another one?

"44% of Americans go to church.....so why is "inclusive", in-touch, modern, welcoming TEC USA declining so pathetically (with half its clergy set to retire in the next 10 years?)????"

24% of US population are Roman Catholics, who are told that attending church on Sunday is a requirement, not attending a sin at least equivalent with theft.

As for the retirement rate, what has that to do with church attendance? I think it has far more to do with the financial appeal (unfortunately) of the ministry (and it affects EVERY denomination...RCs have empty seminaries, too).

Decline in US attendance in churches has been going on for decades. It includes even the evangelical churches. I've looked myself at those coloured maps that show the decline.

As regards evangelical-charismatic churches, one thing to notice is the lack of older people in them. There is a good reason for this, and it is that people leave. The churches that recruit - and this is uneven among the evangelical-charismatics - also lose people. All of these leavers have personal reasons but in general the cultural similarity that allows people in does not suit when people change culture through their lives, and also the intensity of involvement in the church may equate with initial enthusiasms but any period of change, either through questioning or not wanting such intensity leads to a more passive involvement until the social bonds can be broken. Church involvement has a produce life cycle of its own, and either these folks drop away or find their way somewhere else.

There is an interesting blog being written at the moment by Jody (the woman who adds comments at Fulcrum) who is giving personal reasons for falling out with the Conservative Evangelical church she has attended. Whilst this is a personal story, in terms of realisation that the Conservative Evangelical message is full of negative impact, it nevertheless is part of that moving away from such a high octane type of church.

NP insists on using virtueonline as a source. Don't do that! It makes you look silly. It gives me the giggles. And people will think you are rather gullible.

I found the assorted articles interesting not for what was mentioned but for what was ignored.

An ill-informed reader would assume that 51 current bishops of the Episcopal Church were gathered at the Pittsburgh cabal.

In fact, merely 5 (or 6) of the bishops make any pretence of being current members of the Episcopal Church. Perhaps a dozen more can be said to be a part of the recent "African" invasion.

However, more than half of the bishops present apparently belong to an assortment of tiny schismatical bodies dating back as far as 1873, with the bulk of those being "continuing Anglican" schismatics from the late 1970s, early 1980s.

Given that this lot mostly decamped over the ordination of women, one is moved to wonder how much they want to be part of an Anglican Communion where most provinces already ordain women to the priesthood, and where more and more will soon be ordaining women to the episcopate.

Ah, the ever so inaptly named "virtue online"

Well, I guess technically the online part is correct.

And yes, by all means reduce a very complex social phenomenon that affects every denomination in the country to a few irrelevant factoids.

If the church in the US is dwindling, what does that say for the UK? Is church attendance even in double figure percentages any more?

One of my problems with Mr Virtue is his bad manners. He constantly referes to the Presiding Bishop as Mrs Schori. - Does anybody else find this offensive?

Anglicanus - I agree, he can be very rude in various ways.....I wish he would not do that

- but I trust a rude, honest man more than smiling, polite doublespeakers.

For those interested in American perceptions of American evangelicals at this time, please see www.barna.org. It's latest update is titled:
"A New Generation Expresses Its Frustration and Skepticism with Christianity."

The Barna Group is a research and polling group run by evangelicals for evangelicals. However, they attempt to be as objective as possible designing and conducting their research.

Notable nugget: The age group studied, 16 to 29 year olds, perceives Christianity as "anti-homosexual" by percentages of 91 percent for non-Christians and 80 percent for born-again Christians surveyed. The young Christians express concern that their churches give them no guidance for dealing with their gay and lesbian friends. There are other more sensational revelations, but the interesting point is that young Christians have gay and lesbian friends and are not happy with the way their churches deal with the issue of homosexuality.

By the way, how many young people do you think are associated with the breakaway TEC dioceses? And what does that suggest for the future of the imagined new province of purity?

Very intersting, Susan in Georgia.

http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdateNarrow&BarnaUpdateID=280

This includes the text: "this is not a passing fad wherein young people will become "more Christian" as they grow up."

We discovered the same looking at a working class estate on Longhill Estate, where effectively church attendance had all but collapsed. The older generation as more religious are passing, the younger do not get more religious as they get older.

Susan....I love it, you ask questions but never apply them to TEC!

How many young people associated with TEC?
How many TEC vicars to retire in the next 10 years??
How many coming to TEC churchs on a Sunday? .....just 800k and falling year on year in the US where 44% go every week!!
TEC PEOPLE WANT TO PREACH ABOUT RELEVANCE???????????

You would have a point if "conservative" churches inside and outside TEC were weak and liberals saw lots of young people warming to their "inclusive" gospel....but that just ain't happening! Do you even realise that?

Anyone notice something odd about the folowing statements:

"My own support for women in holy orders is well known. Global Anglicanism has said that there are, in fact “two integrities” here, both arguable from Holy Scripture, and – to employ Hooker’s method — less so from Tradition. I am convinced that an honest century of reception will sort this one out. I am also persuaded that our God has challenged us to deal with this issue, either because He does intend to bless this new understanding or because He has it in mind that we Anglicans will best find ourselves again in the institutional and relational charity it will require of us as a dynamic and faithful Anglicanism re-emerges." +Robert Duncan (Moderator of Common Cause)
http://www.acn-us.org/archive/2006/10/nashotah-house-confers-honorary-doctorate-on-bishop-robert-duncan.html

"In order to begin to face the contentious matter of women’s ordination, and as a first step. I suggest that the unique but imperfect Anglican doctrine [expounded in successive Eames Reports in the 1980s and 1990s] of Reception be re-examined and improved by the Common Cause Partnership to become at least the starting point for possible deeper conversations and relations between those who are wholly against, and those who are for, the ordination of women...It would appear that beginning from this imperfect doctrine is the only means we have right now as Anglicans of engaging in dialogue and forging understanding." Dr Peter Toon (supporter of Common Cause)
http://pbs1928.blogspot.com/2007/09/embarking-on-hazardous-route-to-desired.html

Here's a hint: try swapping homosexual practice for women's ordination. Since many in CCP regard women's ordination as 'incompatible with Scripture' and therefore, on 'Lambeth logic', sinful, the hypocrisy and double-standards become breathtaking.

Perhaps I should follow the numbers and join the great unchurched!

Pluralist - I am sure you find the church offers a greater welcome than the world...do you not?

Parts do, NP. I'm not prepared to accept the terms and conditions that some would impose for the "welcome", and I don't have to anyway.

and the world, Pluralist?

The world, NP, is as mixed a bunch as the church.
Some welcoming and open and searching for truth, others bigotted, narrowminded and trying to impose their own values.

You see, there is no "right thinking", no guaranteed safe path to secure bliss.

Christianity gave us the concepts of freedom and responsibility. We can try, but we cannot abdicate them to others, whether they're of the world or of the church. We have to make the right judgements whichever circle we find ourselves in.

And don't make the mistake of believing that Christ can only be found in the church!

Erika - do not make the mistake that some who seek to co-opt him into justifying their behaviour really have his support.....he was not for sale and he always stuck to the truth of the Father in total, self-sacrificial obedience

NP,

you don't even know if there is a "behaviour"...