Comments: Pittsburgh discovery

I wonder if this article in the Los Angeles Times which I just found on Venomonline, hasn't got something quite relevant to say about this:

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-prothero14mar14,0,6805754.story?track=mostviewed-homepage

Posted by Göran Koch-Swahne at Wednesday, 14 March 2007 at 10:11pm GMT

"We have chosen the Rt. Rev. Robert W. Duncan as our leader"

I can't help but giggle at that.

It's a bit... 'Lord of the Flies', isn't it?


"and hereby submit to his leadership without reservation"

Spooky.

Posted by matthew hunt at Thursday, 15 March 2007 at 3:10am GMT

Please note that the photocopies posted on both sites mentioned in this post failed to include the signatures of the Duncan and the President of the Standing Committee which are at the bottom of the page. What signatures were between the top and bottom signatures???

Posted by C.B. at Thursday, 15 March 2007 at 11:45am GMT

Lord of the Flies ? -- and Wagner's Ring ! ...

Intellectually closed and spiritually annealed groups, invariably seek 'strong leadership', and that usually translates into a 'strong leader' who will think and act instead of us. There are always some dissenters to be expelled or liquidated. Look at the history of Russia and Germany.

Further possible literary parallels / amplifications : Animal Farm; & 1984
Journey through the Wilderness (Moris Farhi)
Woman on the Edge of Time (Marge Piercy)

HOWEVER, I think Der Ring is the unparalleled epic of what happens when strong leaders attempt to rectify and control the world and others. It shows the dreadful spiritual effect on the strong leader himself, in the end; and all the spirits (and hearts) he breaks, and lives he ruins. The key to it, it seems to me, is the (at best) compromising of love, & at its worse the 'renunciation of love'-- this kind of strong leadership demands. (See how it has sucked Rowan, so we hardly recognise him now, at times...)There is a denial of Eros too. Lord of the Rings (Tolkien) seems to depict parallel territory of soul.

Loving, open, listening leadership which is 'strong' in fact, but not repressive. Enabling and not fearful of feelings, love, eros or diversity would seem to be shown in Wagner's Master Singers.

As far as Church History goes, look at the history of the papacy. Look at how that free spirit John XX111 sought to open thins up and let other voices in, with a good deal of success. Note however, that subsequent 'strong leadership' has turned back and undermined the project of Vatican 11. A most salutory tale this for Anglicans at the present time of posturing from various men who wish to be seen as strong leaders -- still largely white, heterosexual, male (of course!) and with little toleration of intellectual, spiritual or cultural diversities.....

...So back to Hans Sachs & the Master Singers say I ! ...................

improvizing on ( the basis of) a tradition

Posted by Laurence Roberts... at Thursday, 15 March 2007 at 12:41pm GMT

Gives 'Windsor compliant' a whole new meaning !

Posted by Laurence Roberts... at Thursday, 15 March 2007 at 1:31pm GMT

I suppose I'm baffled here as to how this adds up. Is Martyn Minns going to be under Bob Duncan then? Are we in an odd phase of emergence of something else? I think it is important when someone in the pew doesn't understand to ask.

Er, anyway, that Anglican Centrist diatribe against Elaine Pagels and John Spong misunderstands that if one side walks the other side does not. One side may be walking backwards but the other side just publishes words.

Posted by Pluralist at Thursday, 15 March 2007 at 2:53pm GMT

you can snigger - but that is the new "Primatial Vicar" i.e. the new leader of the AC in the USA

Posted by NP at Thursday, 15 March 2007 at 3:45pm GMT

Pluralist - It depends on what the "common purpose" was of those who signed the document. If it was to establish an alternative province of the AC, then quite possibly yes Minns and the others would be under Duncan, and he would function as their primate. The document is sufficiently oblique (indicating the word of lawyer) to reflect the commitment needed by the GS to proceed. But not so clear to provide a basis for presentments based on the document alone.

Posted by C.B. at Thursday, 15 March 2007 at 3:49pm GMT

Pluralist's questions go to the heart of the matter. If there are other signatures on the document, they should be made public immediately. TEC has an obligation to find out who all the puppets are that "speak" whenever +Duncan moves his lips.

It will be very interesting to see if Nigerian Bishop Minns has sworn allegiance to Pittsburgh. My bet is that Minns' ego was too big for him to do that. After all, Minns has a direct line of communication to and from Abuja, the purported alternate capital of the Anglican Communion. Why go via Pittsburgh when you have an "in" with the boss?

Posted by Robert at Thursday, 15 March 2007 at 4:31pm GMT

Pluralist's questions go to the heart of the matter. If there are other signatures on the document, they should be made public immediately. TEC has an obligation to find out who all the puppets are that "speak" whenever +Duncan moves his lips.

It will be very interesting to see if Nigerian Bishop Minns has sworn allegiance to Pittsburgh. My bet is that Minns' ego was too big for him to do that. After all, Minns has a direct line of communication to and from Abuja, the purported alternate capital of the Anglican Communion. Why go via Pittsburgh when you have an "in" with the boss?

Posted by Robert at Thursday, 15 March 2007 at 4:34pm GMT

Two things from Pittsburgh.

On another posting someone said how the Right use the term "unprecedented." The religious right/orthodox evangelicals are reactionary folks much like Prince Metternich and his Holy Alliance worked after the Napoleonic wars. Put all those ills back in the box Pandora!
Everything is new if you bury your head in the sand and one day finally have to take it out.
Hope that made sense.

I like the Lord of the Flies analogy. This whole thing reminds me of a tee shirt I saw "The Episcopal Church, Thinking is Encouraged." The Episcopal Church has always prided itself as a thinking church. Questions are welcome and no one has the whole truth. Now, the folks who signed on to and pledge submission to Duncan, seem to be saying we have the whole truth and no longer need to think or ask questions. That is very scarey indeed. As a teacher I try to encourage thinking, not discourage.

Posted by BobinWashPA at Thursday, 15 March 2007 at 5:17pm GMT

Fr. Jones in his blog has a serious geographical mistake. The Diocese of Newark is the northern half of New Jersey. The southern half is the Diocese of Trenton, which has suffered from a decline in attendance as well, due to a political scandal involving a bishop there around five years ago.

Posted by choirboyfromhell at Thursday, 15 March 2007 at 5:30pm GMT

I feel badly for Father Jones, the Anglican Centrist. He writes:

"What can be said for certain these days about some of the extremists on the right is that a schismatic future is already being built. And it's not being built on the whole truth, or the good old Good News of God's love in Christ.

"In fact, it's already being built on paper [...] with a history of furtive meetings, half-truths, obfuscations, and sheer politicking."

Did he only now discover that backstairs intrigue, mendacity, and deception are the hallmarks of the extremist Anglican Right?

That in fact is why many of us now believe there is no point in negotiating further with the "Global South" and its American pals. We cannot negotiate with persons who do not negotiate in good faith.

Posted by Charlotte at Thursday, 15 March 2007 at 10:10pm GMT

NP is quite right. I seriously doubt whether Duncan would settle for anything less than PV and is rather hoping he will be installed as PB of the new province, instead. That's why this whole "season of fasting" is an futile exercise, that will change very little.

Posted by C.B. at Friday, 16 March 2007 at 12:10am GMT

Thanks for those replies. Sort of "both and" then, very Anglican. I'm not sniggering: no but yeah but the Primatial wotsit is under the Presiding wotsit and under the communion wotsit too that does not want another provincial thing - and what would make it really another is the Nigeria connection which isn't Duncan, is (or isn't) it? But Duncan, who could be this primatial thingy, isn't yet, but manouvres, and yet says he wants to be cut off, whilst the tanks from Nigeria (that are really cut off already) are parked on the grass with soldiers polishing the gun bits.

Posted by Pluralist at Friday, 16 March 2007 at 1:09am GMT

Pluralist - You said it about right. But Duncan does not want it to be clear what he is up to. He's got a lawsuit against him that is claiming that he is trying to leave TEC and take TEC property - so he doesn't want to give credibility to that action. As a result he speaks in code. He comes right up to the line saying things like I'm "within" TEC, but not "under" TEC. Which on the surface make no sense, but communicates with his base that - "I'm playing the game ya'all, stick with me and when we get through this messy patch, I'll be your leader into the promiseland (the new province). We make have to pass through some more hoops to get there (like putting up with this PV thing for a bit), but don't be confused. I'm with you all the way. And oh, in case you forget. Let me remind you again. I am your leader."

Posted by C.B. at Friday, 16 March 2007 at 1:08pm GMT
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