Comments: Nigeria: 2014 Commonwealth Games

“Violence against LGBT people in Nigeria has increased dramatically, in the wake of attacks on gay people by the Anglican Church of Nigeria and attempts by the Nigerian government to introduce sweeping new anti-gay laws."

OOH! can such things possibly be? I mean, +Akinola is only concerned for my salvation, after all. Bring on the demands for proof and the Bible mining for justification of ACN's behaviour! And why the silence on the fate of the men to be stoned in Kano? Fear of militant Islam on the part of +Akinola, or perhaps pleasure that someone is allowed to do something about those inhuman homos without fearing their coreligionists in the US?

"under the guidance of Peter Jensen"

Now this is something interesting. Is Mr. Jensen (I dare not call him something so "subChristian" as 'bishop') some sort of emminence grise in all this?

Posted by Ford Elms at Monday, 13 August 2007 at 7:12pm BST

I don't think the corrupt Nigerian government should be given this responsibility - for the reasons stated and many others.

The same could also be said about the Beijing olympics.

Posted by Merseymike at Monday, 13 August 2007 at 8:20pm BST

A wise policy to follow: if you couldn't hold the Gay Games there, DON'T attend any other kind!

Posted by JCF at Tuesday, 14 August 2007 at 12:22am BST

I agree with Merseymike.

Posted by Göran Koch-Swahne at Tuesday, 14 August 2007 at 5:50am BST

Belt up....the same could be said about LA, Atlanta, London, Sydney.......all governments have their sins

Posted by NP at Tuesday, 14 August 2007 at 7:10am BST

NP
If you know of legislated abuse of human rights and power in London, let us know. The public transport system doesn't count.

Posted by Erika Baker at Tuesday, 14 August 2007 at 8:35am BST

well, Erika, some would say our actions in Iraq are "terrorism" even though Parliament voted for the war etc etc but, I agree with you on this one......just pointing out that people are hypocritical re our own purity and selective in who we judge and what we raise as issues.

Posted by NP at Tuesday, 14 August 2007 at 10:21am BST

Rubbish, NP

Are you seriously trying to compare the regimes of China and Nigeria with our democratic government in the UK?

Face the facts - Nigeria is a corrupt and poorly managed state: characteristics also found in its 'Anglican' church.

Posted by Merseymike at Tuesday, 14 August 2007 at 12:40pm BST

- and the Cof E is well-managed and free of corruption, MM?

-you may not know, since you are not an Anglican, as you have said but one example of corruption in the CofE is the lack of discipline we see on vicars who flagrantly ignore the teaching of the church when it does not suit them and encourage others to do so.....maybe we should not be accusing the Nigerians when even the CofE lacks integrity or order

Posted by NP at Tuesday, 14 August 2007 at 1:21pm BST

NP
your comments are increasingly appalling.

It has nothing to do with whether anybody accepts the integrity of other Christians or not.
It has everything to do with real and physical power to exclude and punish those you don't agree with.

When the Nigerian government, supported by the Nigerian church, stops criminalising a person for being born the way they are, when it stops trying to imprison people for loving, and when it stops threatening 18 people with execution just because they went to a party, I might stop accusing them.

If you have an ounce of compassion and sense of real justice in you, you can't seriously compare the debate about TEC with the real and terrible human rights abuse perpetrated in Nigeria.

And don't tell me that Jesus wasn't soft on sinners. There is nothing in the bible that justifies what is happening in Nigeria.

Posted by Erika Baker at Tuesday, 14 August 2007 at 4:50pm BST

"one example of corruption in the CofE is the lack of discipline we see on vicars who flagrantly ignore the teaching of the church when it does not suit them and encourage others to do so" writes NP

One assumes he has in mind those who do not use the canonical vesture, those who do not celebrate the Lord's Supper weekly or publicly recite Morning and Evening Prayer (as required by the Canons of the Church), those who remove furniture from the church, such as the Lord's Table, except on those rare occasions when it might be needed, those who use grape juice or even blackcurrant juice in place of the wine required by Canon. I understand these things are all common not only in Sydney, but in certain establishments in London which profess to belong to the Church of England, but would be unrecognisable as such to us country bumpkins.

Posted by cryptogram at Tuesday, 14 August 2007 at 5:56pm BST

That's not related to corruption, NP. Lack of integrity, perhaps. However, it doesn't reflect reality - those vicars should be standing iup against the institutional homophobia of the church, personnified by you and your mates. You'll be much happier with Akinola!

Incidentally, I'm still an Anglican, just not attending church until the split happens.

Posted by Merseymike at Tuesday, 14 August 2007 at 6:13pm BST

NP posted: "Belt up....the same could be said about LA, Atlanta, London, Sydney.......all governments have their sins"

By NP's very strange logic, that would mean that we should treat all violations of the law, e.g., parking in a restricted zone, littering, excessively loud music at midnight, shoplifting, assault, armed robbery, rape, and murder, as if they were one in the same.

NP knows that is absurd, just as he/she knows that the human rights violations of Nigeria are not the same as those of most Western and Northern Hemisphere nations.

Now, if NP had made his/her comparison solely to the People's Republic of China, that would be a different matter for consideration, but I very much doubt that the world community is ready to withdraw anything from that economic juggernaut.

Should they have the Olympics withdrawn? Yes, but they won't.

But that does not mean that Nigeria should be honored with any events from either the Commonwealth, or the World Community. Until Nigeria's thugs and thieves are reformed, they should not be honored in any way.

Posted by Jerry Hannon at Tuesday, 14 August 2007 at 10:13pm BST

Never saw Jesus throw a stone. Never saw Jesus incite a lynch mob. Never saw Jesus advocate punishment.

Jesus welcomed those who came to him, but he never demanded that they come to him.

Nor did he demand the destruction of other faiths or denominations in order that his survive. His rebukes of the Pharisees and Sadducees were never an incitement to violence. It was simply a statement that their theology was fundamentally flawed and would eventually implode on itself. Once faced with the evidence of a gracious and merciful God, who deliberately incarnated to prove that God wants not just the "pure and intact" but also the "broken and outcaste"; not just the "holy nation" but whoever comes to God of their own free will.

God does not rape. God is patient and God is kind. God does not judge with the cruelty of arrogant elitism, nor does God enslave.

Regards the games, my suggestion would be that Nigeria get its house in order: get their extremists (Islamic, Christian or whatever) under control so their streets are safe and get the basics on infrastructure such as electricity and clean water and food to its masses. Then apply for the games in four years time.

At the moment the games would shame Nigeria more than it needs, there would be the parodies of the Phillipines' Marcos regime of beautiful accommodation and venues with the slums hidden from public view. It will not all be fixed in four years time, but there would be a vision of Nigeria rising above its corruption and cruelty to become a civilisation rather than feuding barbarians with idolatrous priests justifying their negligence or brutality.

Posted by Cheryl Clough at Tuesday, 14 August 2007 at 10:27pm BST

Erika - I have agreed with you above on Nigeria.....but I am not going to suspend logic to excuse hypocrisy in the CofE

MM - my "mates", as you say, must be a majority of all the bishops in the CofE and the AC (in 1998 and today)??

Posted by NP at Wednesday, 15 August 2007 at 7:06am BST

NP when earlier you accused the CofE of "corruption" are you now changing that to "hypocrisy" or is this an additional, separate accusation?

Posted by Simon Sarmiento at Wednesday, 15 August 2007 at 8:13am BST

Simon...lots of replies from you today! Yes, I see hypocrisy and corruption, sadly.

It is unbelievable that the CofE can state requirements of its clergy but then some bishops turn blind eyes and some cleargy just ignore certain requirements (despite their vows)....this shows hypocrisy and corruption, does it not?

I say this because the CofE has not changed its requirements of clergy, has it?

Posted by NP at Wednesday, 15 August 2007 at 9:44am BST

We should be proud that an Anglican organisation is at the forefront of the campaign against human rights abuses in Nigeria.

Not sure I understand the moral relativism of NP. How can alleged non-compliance with Issues amongst CofE clergy sensibly be used in a discussion about state-sanctioned stoning to death on grounds of sexual orientation? Nobody interpretes Leviticus 20 v.13 literally these days.

The report submitted to the Commonwealth Games Federation was compiled by Changing Attitude Nigeria. So I don't see the connection with "hypocrisy" and "corruption" in CofE!

Perhaps you could throw some light on this NP?

Posted by Hugh of Lincoln at Wednesday, 15 August 2007 at 12:42pm BST

Hugh - I agree we should be challenging the Nigerian govt and others on human rights......but we must do so with integrity.

Sorry, but I do not think campaigning groups with vicars who ignore certain CofE requirements on them, despite their vows, have much integrity.....

So, it will be quite easy for the valid questions to be dismissed as coming from a group with an agenda (not representative of the CofE) rather than the focus being on the real human rights issues

Posted by NP at Wednesday, 15 August 2007 at 1:23pm BST

"Nobody interpretes Leviticus 20 v.13 literally these days."

Not true. I don't believe it's Ahmanson, but someone associated with him, I'm sure someone here knows the name, and yet another extreme conservative emminence grise in the American political involvement in all this, has in the past advocated exactly this. NP's point, originally, I think, is that things like the Iraq war are bad, and those who participate in them ought not throw stones at others for their human rights abuses. He's got something of a point, but, such as it is, it is weakened by the fact that the very bishops he seems to think are so Godly in their desire to punish TEC have also either remained silent on the Iraq war, or defended it.

Posted by Ford Elms at Wednesday, 15 August 2007 at 1:34pm BST

Yes Ford....even the ABC did little to oppose the Iraq war

(the old Pope was much clearer and more courageous - he told Tony Blair not to invade Iraq....and he told Rowan Williams some other home truths too...neither of them listened and both are living with the consequences)

Posted by NP at Wednesday, 15 August 2007 at 3:31pm BST

I am still at a loss to understand where the "corruption" is. Hypocrisy I understand.

Posted by Simon Sarmiento at Wednesday, 15 August 2007 at 5:01pm BST

Simon - pls see a dictionary definition of "corruption" below. Money does not have to change hands for there to be corruption. Sometimes lack of courage or blackmail can cause it (including emotional blackmail eg "disagreeing with us is persecuting us" type arguments)

corruption: one dictionary definition= "lack of integrity or honesty"

Posted by NP at Thursday, 16 August 2007 at 9:02am BST

Simon

I wish I had kept the links - still (re)learning how internet links work. There was a lot of fallout about how the new vice president of the Christian Association of Nigeria was elected.

Apparently an unexpected meeting was called whilst a Catholic competitor was at an international conference at the Vatican.

Some supporters played their Stalinist style moves too boldly and the Catholics ended up with the Vice Presidency.

The articles I saw at the time demonstrated both corruption and hypocrisy. Was this what you were looking for? In which case, I will search up the links...

Posted by Cheryl Clough at Thursday, 16 August 2007 at 11:17am BST

Cheryl, no I am looking for evidence of "corruption" in the Church of England, as claimed by NP.

(The CAN scandal was covered at http://www.thinkinganglicans.org.uk/archives/002482.html
and earlier items.)

NP's latest definition of the word suggests that I may be looking in vain. I had assumed he was using the word along the lines of the following definition:

lack of integrity or honesty (especially susceptibility to bribery); use of a position of trust for dishonest gain
http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=corruption

(just the first one to come up on google)

Posted by Simon Sarmiento at Thursday, 16 August 2007 at 12:02pm BST

Sorry NP, that's a corruption of the English language! To say that "emotional blackmail" is "corruption" is clutching at straws.

There is no hidden agenda on CA's part as far as I can see. They are acting in accordance with their own stated objectives, with complete integrity.

Davis MacIyalla reports on CA website that members of CA Nigeria are amongst the 18 men charged. More reason for the Church of Nigeria to exert pressure on the authorities for their release.

Posted by Hugh of Lincoln at Thursday, 16 August 2007 at 12:21pm BST

Have another look, Hugh...
I did not say that '"emotional blackmail" is "corruption".....did I?

Simon got a definition from the web which says corruption can mean "lack of integrity or honesty".....I see exactly this in the CofE with some leaders turning blind eyes when some clergy ignore clear church requirements for their behaviour....unless you think this shows integrity, I would suggest it is corrupt leadership.

I agree that the human rights of all people in Nigeria matter and we should speak up when any of them are abused....as I have said here before, I am not against the UK anti-discrimination laws etc....I just don't think being ordained is a human right.

Posted by NP at Thursday, 16 August 2007 at 2:11pm BST

Hello TA!

If someone knows any Anglican been charged before an Islamic Sharia court for ANY offence, PLEASE let me have such a person's details and I can assure the church's legal officer in the concerned diocese will be mandated to ensure such an injustice is prevented.

If my friend Davis is just trying to exploit the unfortunate situation to remain relevant, he should be reminded that he claims CA to be made up of Anglicans which means they are Christians naturally exempted from being charged before Islamic courts.

Posted by Tunde at Thursday, 16 August 2007 at 2:29pm BST

Tunde, the Changing Attitude leader in Jos has reported that 6 Anglican members of the group are among those arrested in Bauchi. Another member who is serving in the National Youth Services Corps in Bauchi reports that when he heard the news of the arrest he went to the police station where the DPO refused to allow him access to the men and even threatened to arrest him if he didn’t leave the station.

You would help these young men if you instructed the church's legal officer in the appropriate diocese to attend the police station, confirm for him or herself the facts and ensure that the Anglicans are properly represented and injustice is prevented.

It is unrealistic to expect that Changing Attitude Nigeria is going to forward to you the names of the young men who have been arrested. You and the senior hierarchy of the Church of Nigeria are not trusted by the members of CAN.

You comment that your 'friend' Davis ( I think Davis might not see your friendhsip in a positive way after all your false allegations against him) is just trying to exploit an unfortunate situation to remain relevant. I think your comment and your attitude is scandalous, Tunde - to impute such motives to Davis when these 18 men are being held on remand ahd threatened with execution by stoning, 18 people were killed in Port Harcourt last weekend and prior to that, a similar number of Davis's family were murdered in his mother's house.

Davis is not claiming that some of those arrested are Anglicans. He is reporting what the group leader told him. Davis doesn't claim that Changing Attitude Nigeria is made up of gay Anglicans - it IS made up of gay Anglicans and the Revd Stephen Coles, a member of the Church of England General Synod, and myself, met some of the CAN group leaders in person in Togo. Tunde, you are using this tragedy for the young gay men who were gathered in Bauchi to attack Davis's integrity and motive.

You need to explain to those of us who are not in Nigerian law how Christians are naturally exempted from being charged before Islamic courts.

Posted by Colin Coward at Thursday, 16 August 2007 at 4:47pm BST

The Changing Attitude leader in Jos has just confirmed that 3 of the 5 men arrested are Anglicans, and they were taken before a secular court, not a Sharia court

Posted by Colin Coward at Thursday, 16 August 2007 at 5:24pm BST

So, Tunde, what do you intend to do about this?

And how about accepting some of the responsibility, given the stance of your church and its leadership?

Posted by Merseymike at Thursday, 16 August 2007 at 8:49pm BST

This situation is one that needs higher oversight and representation (than just via this utterly unreliable and even counterproductive Church) - like monitoring and messaging from various governments towards the behaviour of Nigeria. Meanwhile once again Davis Mac-Iyalla shows bravery in such a situation, and how important it is that he is in constant contact with others outside and gets support.

Posted by Pluralist at Thursday, 16 August 2007 at 9:37pm BST

NP

I agree with you that corruption includes turning a blind eye to holy requirements. e.g. Jeremiah 17:27 where we are to honor the holy spark in all souls.

http://www.thinkinganglicans.org.uk/archives/002566.html#comments You might find the posting about to go up useful as it expands on how souls can be negligent in their holy requirements.

Posted by Cheryl Clough at Thursday, 16 August 2007 at 10:06pm BST

"If someone knows any Anglican been charged before an Islamic Sharia court for ANY offence, PLEASE let me have such a person's details and I can assure the church's legal officer in the concerned diocese will be mandated to ensure such an injustice is prevented."

Tunde, this rather colossally misses the point. Those 18 men are human beings, creatures of God. It matters not a whit whether they are Anglicans, Muslims, Hindus, or anything else for that matter. As Christians, we are called to love our neighbours, not merely those of the same faith as our own. And Jesus was pretty clear as to who our neighbour is: EVERYBODY! Stoning a Muslim because he is gay is just as much an injustice as stoning an Anglican!

Posted by Ford Elms at Friday, 17 August 2007 at 12:38pm BST

Getting a little confused but not surprised the story is changing. Are there 3, 5 or 6 Anglicans involved?

News reports speak of death penalty and Islamic Justice which I am sincerely concerned no Christian should risk that.

Colin, during Nigeria’s sharia debates, non-Muslims were assured that they cannot be forced to Islamic courts though they can sue Muslims there. I understand why you feel it is unrealistic to send me details. I only hope you will also understand how unrealistic it is for me to ask a Church representative to go to the Police Station and claim 3, 5, or 6 Christians are being unlawfully charged to an Islamic court. Or no! now a civil court. A random question and all the 18 may claim to be Christians to escape death for instance!

There exists another preferable option. Raise money for Davis to forward to his ‘contacts’ for the trips, legal fees, police support, medical, etc.

Pardon the suggestion if it is late, but if someone hundred of miles away can wrap the ugly scenario in Port Harcourt ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6949589.stm ) around getting sympathy for himself, then he deserves our pity whenever anyone is charged to court in Nigeria for sexual offences. I better report this http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/6944906.stm before she turns out to be someone’s sister or aunt.

Ford, the strictness of Islam to sexual issues is not peculiar to Nigeria but with recent trends is coming to your community or a community near you very soon.

In case anyone is sure ANY Anglican is facing possible death sentence in ANY Islamic court in Nigeria, PLEASE contact me to avoid it.

Posted by Tunde at Friday, 17 August 2007 at 3:32pm BST

"Ford, the strictness of Islam to sexual issues is not peculiar to Nigeria but with recent trends is coming to your community or a community near you very soon."

No question. What, however, does this have to do with the current discussion? I pointed out that your concern for Anglicans being subjected to Sharia Law misses the point that we Christians are called to defend ALL the oppressed, love ALL our neighbours, regardless of their colour, creed, or, indeed, sinfulness. Whether or not Islam is stricter on sexual issues, or is set to influence/take over Western society has nothing to do with it. Or are you trying to inmply that I do not understand the religious/political situation in Nigeria with respect to Muslim/Christian relations? If so, you can simply state that the current political situation is such that to defend these people would cause great difficulties, perhaps even violence, for many more than simply 18 gay people in Kano. Remind us of the recent cathedral burning to underscore your point. I might think it's a bit of a cop out, but one necessitated by the "official" social position of the Church, and hardly new, let alone peculiar to the Church in Nigeria. Compromise of the Gospel for the sake of social peace has been a feature of the Institutional Church since AD 313, it's hardly a particular sin of Nigerian Anglicans! Indeed, in seeking to protect the safety of ordinary members of your flock, you are to be commended, though there are those who would ask you to justify treating some lives as more worthy of saving than others.

Posted by Ford Elms at Friday, 17 August 2007 at 4:25pm BST

I am appalled by what Akintunde says and the un-Christian attitudes he displays towards his fellow human beings.

All God's creation. Christ was incarnated for them all without exception.

Posted by Göran Koch-Swahne at Saturday, 18 August 2007 at 5:50am BST

Here at Changing Attitude we always feel sympathy when Canon Tunde becomes confused because we are also often confused by news which arrives from Nigeria. I’m happy to clear up our and his confusion. The number of men arrested in total was 18, of which 13 are Moslems and 5 are Christians, 3 Anglican and 2 from another denomination.

The confusion about Christians being tried in an Islamic court under Sharia law is the responsibility of the original report from a Nigerian news agency, which reported that all 18 had been taken to a Sharia court. The report assumed that all 18 were Moslems. It was a subsequent report from the leader of Changing Attitude in Jos, from where 5 of the men come, which revealed that these men are Christians. We can now confirm that they were not taken to an Islamic court but to a civil court.

There is no need for us to raise money for Davis to send to his contacts in Nigeria, though I appreciate your positive and practical suggestion, Tunde. The local leaders, parents of the young men, and the Moslems, have together raised enough money to bail those arrested.

Am I alone in thinking that your linking to the stories about the Port Harcourt violence and the nude video story have nothing to do with the arrest of 18 gay men in Bauchi?

There is always something sinister in your posts, Tunde, a regular attempt to attack the reputation of Davis Mac-Iyalla and imply that he is a liar.

I don’t understand the relevance of your comment that you need to report the nude video story before she turns out to be someone’s sister or aunt, nor why you need to imply that someone in Port Harcourt can wrap the ugly scenario to get sympathy for himself.

You seem to live in a world of constant suspicion in which you have contributed to the abuse of Davis Mac-Iyalla by publishing deliberate lies. These are not the actions of a Christian.

I make mistakes sometimes, and I will always apologise and/or correct them when they are pointed out, as here, and when additional information becomes available. Changing Attitude England and Nigeria are happy to work together to provide updated and accurate information about events affecting LGBT Anglicans in Nigeria.

Posted by Colin Coward at Saturday, 18 August 2007 at 10:46am BST

Colin, Thanks for clarifying that no Anglican is facing death sentence on any sexual issue while the Church turns away. Totally different position from earlier raised alarms. Also I appreciate your 'mistaken' bit. I always do. Securing bail for people facing a possible life jail or death sentence is something I am not sure about, but of course your 'news which arrives from Nigeria' implies the arrested Moslems are on bail.

Again, I repeat that I have NEVER lied about Davis. I am yet to acknowledge that 'I was mistaken' in any communication about him. I will gladly apologize if the Diocese of Otukpo which gave me documents implying his fraudulent activities withdraw the allegations. For that to happen, he has to explain missing monies. Unfortunately, the “knight” is not interested in redeeming his image. The disclaimer remains valid.

Ford really answered his questions though from a far away view. Only addition may be the need to keep in focus one’s goal of evangelization when one’s religion is already considered morally lax. When radical Islam lives with you, you will understand better.

Am off again.

Posted by Tunde at Saturday, 18 August 2007 at 2:49pm BST

On 28th December, 2005 Canon Akintunde Popoola published two consecutive disclaimers on the Church of Nigeria web site.

The second was headed: PRESS RELEASE - DISCLAIMER- Davis Mac- Iyalla.

It said:
“The general public is hereby warned of the activities of a person who goes by the name of Davis (David) Mac Iyalla. He claims to be a homosexual member of the Anglican Church but extensive searches revealed that he is NOT registered in any of our over 10,000 local parishes as of the past two years. None of our over 6000 priests recognise him as an active member in any of their parishes.

“He has finally been traced to be the same person who defrauded the then dying Bishop of Otukpo under the guise of marrying his daughter. Iyalla then closed down his own C & S church and took up an appointment with his then proposed father–in-law from whom he fraudulently obtained some church documents. On the death of the bishop mid 2003, Iyalla broke off the engagement and made away with large sums of money including salaries due to some staff. Since then, he has not been seen in Otukpo where he is wanted by the Police. He claims he was sacked and victimised for his homosexuality and uses that guise to further defraud unsuspecting foreigners.

“Anyone relating to Davis (David) Mac Iyalla does so at his or her own risk.”

On 16 January 2006, Changing Attitude published a statement, documents and photographs demonstrating that the majority of the allegations made by Canon Tunde are untrue http://www.changingattitude.org.uk/news/newsitem.asp?id=9.

The most serious allegation made is that Davis Mac-Iyalla stole large sums of money from Otukpo. Despite repeated requests, Canon Tunde has failed to produce any evidence in support of his allegations.

The alleged offence would have taken place in August 2003 when Davis was dismissed from the school in Otukpo. The allegation of theft was first raised by Canon Tunde in December 2006.

If the crime was serious, why was no action taken until two months after the General Meeting held by Changing Attitude Nigeria held in Abuja in November 2005 and reported in the Nigerian press and the New York Times.

It is not unreasonable to think that there is indeed a relationship, and Canon Tunde’s Disclaimer and allegations were published to undermine and destroy Davis’s reputation.

Posted by Colin Coward at Saturday, 18 August 2007 at 5:11pm BST

The clear truth is that CAN has affected the Church of Nigeria and the society of Nigeria so positively that the only thing for +Akinola and Tunde Popoola to do is keep repeating their lies and false allegations against me.

This is the very Tunde who 18 months ago told the world on TA that he will never comment any more about me or CAN. But no, he can’t stop himself from keep coming to post his lies about me on TA because we are the ones who have changed the debate in the Anglican Communion and proved that LGBT people do exist in Nigeria and are also faithful members of the Anglican Church of Nigeria.

I am praying that Changing Attitude England will have enough funds to support CAN in our time of need because I know there is very little money available. Yes we do get some financial support for our work when the need arises and I am grateful to all our supporters and to Colin who have sometimes used their personal money to support CAN.

If Tunde or anyone imagines that CA England is forwarding large amounts of money to me for my personal use, let me assure you they are wrong. Those who know my family house in Port-Harcourt should compare where I am staying now in Togo and see for themselves if I am living in luxury.

The clear truth Tunde and everyone who is thinking CA is sending me lots of money should know is that things are not the way they imagine. All the pocket money I was given in the USA was sent to support some of the group leaders and members of CAN in Nigeria. I came back from England with empty pockets and the money I was given for personal use by Stephen Coles I used to pay for transport to Cotonu for the Miss Gay Benin event.

Posted by Davis Mac-Iyalla at Saturday, 18 August 2007 at 7:22pm BST

"When radical Islam lives with you, you will understand better."

It's rather ethnocentric of you to assume that I do not understand this. If you check back, you'll find I have said on several occasions that we in the West need to be mindful of the situation Christians face living in close contact with radical Islam. I even suggested that if we are going to do things that might bring violence on the heads of Christians on the other side of the planet, we should be prepared to go where they are and stand in their defence. You suggested that if I tried to do that in Nigeria, you would approve people throwing me in jail for being gay, and would not stop them!

You seem to have this stereotype that "the West" knows nothing about Africa other than, possibly, its memories of its colonialist past. To assume all of North America can be described by your stereotypes of the US is as silly as claiming all Africans are Yoruba.

You seem to be implying that Christianity must compromise in the face of real or potential persecution. Interesting. Not Biblical, though, surely.

Posted by Ford Elms at Monday, 20 August 2007 at 11:54am BST

What Tunde has failed to grasp is that taking on the errors in the Anglican Communion has helped our Jewish, Musli, Hinudu and others take on the errors in their communions.

By seeing how misinterpretation to justify personal "security" can distort Anglicanism, other souls can appreciate how their own theology and/or philosophy became hijacked.

We heal the Anglicans not because they are the best, but because their historocal dynamic of broad tent anglicanism versus elistist imposition parallels the lessons Gaia's diverse occupants need to learn right now.

Posted by Cheryl Clough at Wednesday, 22 August 2007 at 12:56pm BST
Post a comment









Remember personal info?






Please note that comments are limited to 400 words. Comments that are longer than 400 words will not be approved.

Cookies are used to remember your personal information between visits to the site. This information is stored on your computer and used to refill the text boxes on your next visit. Any cookie is deleted if you select 'No'. By ticking 'Yes' you agree to this use of a cookie by this site. No third-party cookies are used, and cookies are not used for analytical, advertising, or other purposes.