Comments: The Chicago Consultation

“Some people call it the gay agenda, but we call it the Gospel Agenda,” said the Rev. Bonnie Perry, rector of All Saints Church, Chicago, co-convener of the Consultation. “We are asking our Church and our Communion to see what God has created and know that it is good.” . . . “Homophobia is a sin whose end time is now,” said the Rev. Canon Marilyn McCord Adams"

Amen, amen, alleluia!

May Christ richly bless this undertaking. :-)

Posted by JCF at Wednesday, 12 December 2007 at 7:52pm GMT

“Some people call it the gay agenda, but we call it the Gospel Agenda,” said the Rev. Bonnie Perry, rector of All Saints Church, Chicago, co-convener of the Consultation. “We are asking our Church and our Communion to see what God has created and know that it is good.” . . . “Homophobia is a sin whose end time is now,” said the Rev. Canon Marilyn McCord Adams"

This is it in a nutshell !


“Homophobia is a sin whose end time is now,”.


Posted by L Roberts at Thursday, 13 December 2007 at 12:03pm GMT

How can they call homophobia a "sin"? Jesus didn't even say anything about it, right? Just asking.

Posted by DGus at Thursday, 13 December 2007 at 9:27pm GMT

DGus -- Jesus did indeed say something about it. Just go to the story of the Good Samaritan. It's quite clear.

Posted by Phyllis at Friday, 14 December 2007 at 1:08am GMT

DGus: by the same logic you might well ask:

How can they call homosexuality a "sin"? Jesus didn't even say anything about it, right?

Posted by kieran crichton at Friday, 14 December 2007 at 6:00am GMT

"How can they call homophobia a "sin"? Jesus didn't even say anything about it, right? Just asking."

If you love someone as you love yourself you cannot fear or hate them.

Posted by Erika Baker at Friday, 14 December 2007 at 7:39am GMT

He did say quite a few other things that make discrimination and repression and persecution sin.

(never forget that the idea that sin is sexual is Academic, not Gospel or Bible but Gnosticism/Platonism from Alexandria)

Posted by Göran Koch-Swahne at Friday, 14 December 2007 at 8:02am GMT

DGus: well, Jesus didn't say anything about racism either, but I'd say it was a sin, wouldn't you?

Posted by Fr Mark at Friday, 14 December 2007 at 8:49am GMT

"How can they call homophobia a "sin"? Jesus didn't even say anything about it, right? Just asking."

Jesus said "Judge not lest ye be judged", and told us to pay attention to our own sins and improve ourselves rather than telling everybody else what's wrong with them. "Take thou the beam from thine own eye....." Odd that direct commands like that are ignored by "faithful" Christians, who, we all know, never pick and choose what aprts of the Bible they will follow.

Posted by Ford Elms at Friday, 14 December 2007 at 12:55pm GMT

OK, thanks, everybody. Good points, all. Just wanted to make sure that, when deciding whether something is a sin, we don't just look for it to be explicitly condemned in the red-letter portions of the NT. I sometimes get confused on this point. But you've resolved the confusion.

Posted by DGus at Friday, 14 December 2007 at 3:10pm GMT

So it's okay to go down to the local gay bar and beat up on fags because the bible doesn't forbid me?

Now it all makes sense. Glad we've resolved that problem.

Posted by choirboyfromhell at Saturday, 15 December 2007 at 11:44pm GMT

Dear CBFH: I'm not sure which way your irony is pointing, so excuse me if I'm stating the obvious, but I think we've established that (to use your example) beating people up CAN be a sin even if Jesus didn't explicitly get around to criticizing it in the Gospels.

Posted by DGus at Monday, 17 December 2007 at 2:33pm GMT

"beating people up CAN be a sin"

Implying that there are times when it isn't. In the experience of many gay people, those times occur after some preacher goes on an anti-gay rant. Then, to go by the stats on anti-gay violence, it becomes a means of doing God service. This is why all the pious claptrap about hating the sin and loving the sinner just makes conservatives look silly. Conservatives as a general rule appear to hate the sinner as well, despite all their desire to appear publically acceptable.

Posted by Ford Elms at Monday, 17 December 2007 at 5:11pm GMT

Dear Ford:

Oh please. Implied no such thing. BTW, that "claptrap" about hating sin and loving the sinner is essential to Christianity. Don't you hate homophobia but love the homophobe? Ya better. Better at least try.

Posted by DGus at Tuesday, 18 December 2007 at 2:41am GMT

I'm sorry, DGus, but there is very little to love in Fred Phelps and his merry band of bigots picketing funerals across the US.

Call my human, call me fallible. I just can't love those who want me dead, bloodied and splattered on the streets just because of the way I was born. I know it isn't Christian, but certainly neither are they.

Posted by choirboyfromhell at Tuesday, 18 December 2007 at 12:40pm GMT

"claptrap" about hating sin and loving the sinner is essential to Christianity."

DGus, the claptrap is not in the statement itself. It is, of course, essential to Christianity. It's claptrap because, in the mouths of those who use it to talk about homosexuality, it is a boldfaced lie. They hate the sinner at least as much as they hate the sin. They make it perfectly obvious. One doesn't lie about and slander someone one loves, after all. On a previous thread I am more clear about how this is obvious, I won't repeat myself here.

Posted by Ford Elms at Tuesday, 18 December 2007 at 1:20pm GMT

"Fred Phelps "

CBH, he's so far beyond the pale that I don't really consider him in the equation. I'm not talking about the Phelpsians, I'm talking about the pious Anglicans who, as one of them put in print recently, don't see why they should "share a communion rail with these people". I'm talking about the otherwise innocuous appearing people who then make the most outragous statements about gay people that they not only don't know are untrue, they refuse to acknowledge any evidence of that untruth, and they can't even understand why they're insulting.

As to Brother Phelps, I agree, 'tis some 'ard to see Jesus in that man. I honestly believe, I mean this, that he and his gang are the most public example we have today of what we traditionally called demonic possession. Have you noticed in pictures of them at their various evangelistic activities, for that is what they think them to be, how their faces only seem relaxed when they are contorted in hatefilled anger? It's really quite interesting. Which is why he and his clan need our Christian love. Seriously, we should organize an exorcism.

Posted by Ford Elms at Tuesday, 18 December 2007 at 4:24pm GMT

Ford, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you are saying that anyone who professes both to believe that homosexuality is a sin and, at the same time, to love the homosexual, is lying. I can assure you this is not so. I would also urge that this sort of iron-clad defense against criticism ("Anyone who disagrees with me on issue X is necessarily a hateful liar") is ultimately very self-destructive.

Posted by DGus at Tuesday, 18 December 2007 at 5:37pm GMT

Ford, agreed, we need to love them to death. Shall I bring the holy water?

DGus, why do you think what has been called by the American Psychiatric Association as a condition, is still called by some (who profess to be Christians) to be a sin?

That's the real sin, calling people born a certain way, and wish to use it in a way that emulates as much as possible for them, a lifestyle of well balanced ('straight')families, only to be called sinners.

That's wrong. Plain and simple.

Posted by choirboyfromhell at Tuesday, 18 December 2007 at 6:58pm GMT

DGus,
You can assert as much as you like that those who profess homosexuality to be a sin do not actually hate homosexuals. But, why do you not consider why it is that gay people don't believe them? I have been clear about this. If someone claims to love me, then turns right around and calls me an animal or a "cancer on the Body of Christ", or says I am inhuman, or supports those who do and say these things, well, if you can say that such people love me, you have a very different definition of love than I do. I have never felt it appropriate to slander and lie about those I love. It isn't the claim that the Bible says homosexuality is a sin that is homophobic, it's what the people making that claim subsequently do and say that puts the lie their claim to love me. The amusement comes from the way that, no matter how clear one is in explaining this, there are those who will always deny it. So. Since I am having a good chuckle at your denial of the obvious, tell me, how can the things that +Akinola says about gay people be said in any way to express love of me? How can a man say that he loves me when he is proud of shrinking back from my touch? (No, it was Louie Crew, I believe, but I doubt he'd respond any differently were he ever so unfortunate as to have to touch me). How is it an expression of love to support the jailing not only of me but of those who are kind to me for 5 years? Come on, you gotta admit, these things are anything but loving.

Posted by ford Elms at Tuesday, 18 December 2007 at 7:53pm GMT

DGus wrote: "... it sounds like you are saying that anyone who professes both to believe that homosexuality is a sin and, at the same time, to love the homosexual, is lying. I can assure you this is not so."

Ford just told you you can't.

Posted by Göran Koch-Swahne at Tuesday, 18 December 2007 at 8:17pm GMT
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