Comments: press reports on Bishop Duncan

About time.

Now if someone can put me in touch with someone in Sydney who is not into repressing all forms of Christianity but those endorsed by some selfish priests and their sycophants, please use the hyperlinks to contact me.

At least the US got a chance to defend "broad tent" theology before all the alternatives were suppressed out of public existence.

Don't mind sectarian puritans. Do mind them being seen as "legitimate" when they systemically sabotage diversity and global agendas to further their own ends.

Jesus was annointed Messiah and Lord of all this Earth's occupants. That includes souls that neither like nor trust him. Jesus would do well to remember that his annointment did not come from humans, but from God, and God has ways of dealing with souls who deny and insult souls that help God's annointed.

Jesus wants to allow these priests to claim that he is he is the complete and perfect fulfillment of God? Then Jesus can manifests in all of HIS personal glory and proceed to exterminate all life from this planet before taking away all his perfectly beloved.

Jesus and his beloved can live in their heaven oblivious to the rest of Creation's existence. After all, according to their theology we don't exist.

They are right. Heaven is a one way street for such souls. What goes in does not come out.

Posted by Cheryl Va. at Friday, 19 September 2008 at 10:28am BST

Thanks be to God.

The conservatives will not hear the other side out. It is automatically wrong in their mind. I think that the Presiding Bishop has been more than lenient in this case, asking for + Duncan to prove to her otherwise. It seems the gauntlet was thrown down and now......

Posted by Eric Osborne at Friday, 19 September 2008 at 11:47am BST

Bishop Spong can preach heresy after heresy, scores of bishops can deny the bodily resurrection of Jesus, and need I even mention the complete abandonment of Christian teaching when it comes to sexual behavior? And yet, in spites of all that, the most dangerous bishop in TEC is the one who - get this - BELIEVES it is permissible for a diocese to realign itself with another province. Hmmm...so much for the big tent of ideas!

Posted by Joe at Friday, 19 September 2008 at 2:47pm BST

Eric, you've spoken truth. The PB has bent over backwards to be fair and impartial. God truly blessed us when she was elected as the presiding bishop of the House of Bishops.

Posted by James at Friday, 19 September 2008 at 3:04pm BST

We are not a purity cult. We are the Body of Christ. Individual members, like Spong and Pike, can make their own journeys into understanding but the Church continues to proclaims the faith. Trying to rip away a part of the Body is a kind of crucifixion. Duncan was treated as a schismatic should be. He separated himself from the Body and yesterday the Body recognized the choice he made.

Posted by jnwall at Friday, 19 September 2008 at 4:22pm BST

"Bishop Spong can preach heresy after heresy, scores of bishops can deny the bodily resurrection of Jesus, and need I even mention the complete abandonment of Christian teaching when it comes to sexual behavior?"

I might say that Jensen and scores of others can preach heresy after heresy and no-one does anything. Scores of bishops denying the resurrection? Really? Seems like a few eccentrics to me, but hey, perhaps my "few" is your "scores". And the "complete abandonment of Christian teaching with regard to sexual behaviour? What about remarriage after divorce, something most conservatives seem to have no problem with? And, how is it abandonment of Christian teaching to try to show Christian love to a group of people who have traditionally been oppressed, even murdered, by "good Christians"? You may well think that trying to so this by accepting gay relationships is misguided, but can you honestly say that attempting to show the love of God in the world is "abandonment of Christian teaching"? And how is it that sexuality and marriage has been raised to the level of Christology in defining "orthodoxy"? And how is it that scheming to subvert the Church and place onesself and one's group in their place as the "true Church" is not abandonment of communion?

Posted by Ford Elms at Friday, 19 September 2008 at 4:49pm BST

Please remember that all is not well in Pittsburgh. We have a guarantee that Bishop Duncan will not continue to be the bishop of the Diocese of Pittsburgh in The Episcopal Church. This does not mean that we will not have Bishop Duncan to kick around anymore. He will soon claim to be bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Pittsburgh in the Southern Cone. This “diocese” will, in the minds of Duncan and his lawyers, own all the asserts of the other (real) diocese. God help us! Pray for the real Episcopalians in Pittsburgh.

Posted by Lionel Deimel at Friday, 19 September 2008 at 5:59pm BST

Prayers ascending, Lionel. Ora *ET* labora, for TEC in Pittsburgh.

May God bless Robert Duncan, and reconcile him to the Episcopal Church IN God's Time. May the Prince of Peace grant a spirit of reconcilation to ALL.

Posted by JCF at Friday, 19 September 2008 at 7:11pm BST

Cheryl-

Might I suggest this link:

http://www.anglicanstogether.org/

"Anglicans Together is an organisation of Anglicans in the Diocese of Sydney which values an inclusive and diverse expression of Anglicanism..."

Posted by rjb at Friday, 19 September 2008 at 7:33pm BST

What Lionel says - I've got your back, Lionel, with my prayers, for what they're worth, as imperfect as they are. And I know lots of others do, too.

Posted by Lois Keen at Friday, 19 September 2008 at 8:08pm BST

Best of luck Lionel and thanks for your courageous witness - What fool's we mortals be (with apologies to Wm. S) ettu

Posted by ettu at Friday, 19 September 2008 at 9:51pm BST

Let us be clear as progressive believers.

Duncan is deposed, not for holding conservative (even fairly extremely conservative) believer views.

He is deposed, mainly for being cagey and unfair to the extent that he thought he could disguise and spin doctor his own actions according to his own fairly self-serving small tent realignment agenda, quite beholden to USA Rightwing Dominionist presumptions about who gets the power, including all the gold lying about.

In particular Duncan:
A) bore consistent false witness against a variety of neighbors. Some local, some global. Some believers, some unbelievers. Some queer, of course. Duncan also bears an egregiously mean, false witness about the Anglican big tent, period. ...

plus the abandonment of discipline smoking gun (B) scheming and plotting to take sole control of money/property. Treasures held in trust. With whom? With exactly the other big tent believers, above whom Duncan preaches he now eternally stands in Jesus. ...

So far as hot button wedge issue queer folk targets go, Duncan is clearly a super-sized, me-first plus me-better sort of heterosexual believer. Idealized. Solid gold, glowing. Duncan is better, bigger, higher, more blessedly rightwing so closer to Jesus - than almost any possible queer citizen we could name from our own century or any past century. Duncan is a practicing, self-proclaimed straight role model for queer folks, surely, in his own eyes - as he views himself through the special rightwing lenses of how he presuppositionally believes he is himself view by God in Jesus. Recursive. Yes, mirrors.

How sad.

In our century, now entirely unnecessary because so entirely so small-hearted.

Brother Diemel is correct in believing that the USA rightwing campaign to tear apart the global Anglican big tent is far from over. It may continue for decades yet. The rest of us know you must be feeling weary of all this realignment mess, as we are feeling quite weary of having to clean up spin doctored, confusing, messy propaganda and theft, mainly foisted upon all of us by rightwing realignmentists.

Yet we do encourage big tent believers in Pb to keep filing all the court motions needed to make sure that outside scrutiny helps keep Duncan and company as transparent as possible. Basic Civil, democratic citizenship ideals of honesty and fairness are our allies in this ongoing realignment campaign involving falsehoods, deception, theft, and meanness.

Posted by drdanfee at Friday, 19 September 2008 at 11:08pm BST

"Bishop Spong can preach heresy after heresy, scores of bishops can deny the bodily resurrection of Jesus, and need I even mention the complete abandonment of Christian teaching when it comes to sexual behavior?"

Yeesss, Bishop Spong. Why exactly was it that no one - including all the would-be Guardians of Orthodoxy in the HOB - ever tried to bring charges against him? Why was the only bishop brought up on charges of heresy was one who ordained a gay deacon?

As for "scores," well, words mean something. A score = 20. Just who are these more than forty bishops who reject the Resurrection?

And to characterize PECUSA's stance on sexuality as the "complete abandonment of Christian teaching" is what I believe is called "question begging." As well as unfair. And untrue.

Why must "reasserter" types all be such drama queens?

Posted by BillyD at Saturday, 20 September 2008 at 1:08am BST

My last comment was unfair. Not all reasserters are drama queens. And not all drama queens are on the reasserter side of the aisle.

Posted by BillyD at Saturday, 20 September 2008 at 1:19am BST

This Spong debate is getting tedious.
He denied a "literal" interpreation of the resurrection, that's not the same thing as denying the whole concept of the resurrection. If literalism were the only standard only some evangelical fundies would remain.

And abandoning Christian teaching on sexual morality isn't heresy because the term heresy does not apply to second order issues.

A sense of proportion would really be helpful!

Posted by Erika Baker at Saturday, 20 September 2008 at 10:20am BST

"Why exactly was it that no one - including all the would-be Guardians of Orthodoxy in the HOB - ever tried to bring charges against him?"

I never thought about this before. Just why is it that, despite calling him everything but a Christian, none of these people who think have made Spong the icon of apostacy ever bothered to try him for it? Why is it that, even while they scream against him, they never thought it necessary to "break communion" over him, to declare the "fabric of the communion" torn, but let one gay man admit to being gay and all Hell breaks loose. Interesting.


"Why must "reasserter" types all be such drama queens?"

Well, see, I've always thought there was a bit of the "methinks the homo doth protest too much" about some of these people. Let's be honest, there's only so much you can hide. Perhaps some of them at least must be such drama queens because they ARE both dramatic and queens. Just a guess, but, like I say, we all used to hide it at some point, since coming out we found out we weren't that good at it, and after years on the outside, it's pretty easy some times to spot someone who, like we once did, thinks he is hiding more than he actually is.

"If literalism were the only standard only some evangelical fundies would remain."

Erika, I think this is the point of the entire exercise.

Posted by Ford Elms at Saturday, 20 September 2008 at 9:06pm BST

Ford, I think you are right about our dramatic queens.

I will never forget seeing an interview on Anglican TV with a prominent "orthodox" bishop who will remain nameless here.

I swear, I thought he was going to throw on a feather boa and begin singing "Diamonds Are a Girl's Best Friend." My first thought was, "Hey, now I know why he's always thinking about homosexuality!"

Posted by JPM at Tuesday, 23 September 2008 at 2:07am BST

"The curfew tolls the knell of parting day"
(Grey's elergy in a country churchyard)

Is this another case of : "Have mitre, will travel" ? Into the Cone of Silence?

Posted by Father Ron Smith at Tuesday, 23 September 2008 at 5:29am BST

"Ford, I think you are right about our dramatic queens"

It makes some sense. Let's say someone chose, years ago, out of fear and a desire for social advancement to suppress their sexuality and pretend to be straight. If that person was lucky enough to find(or, I guess you could say 'if God provided')a spouse who was smimlarly motivated/for whom sex was not a significant part of a relationship, etc., then that person could spend his/her entire life pretending to be straight, God knows millions have and still do. Such a person would likely have difficulty understanding why others wouldn't make the same choice. The trouble is that this introduces a lie into the core of a person's being, one that must be negated by ever larger self delusions. Once you have on some level convinced yourself of the truth of that central lie, you can then convince yourself of most anything. It just gets easier and easier. Is there any surprise then that the conservative persecution myth is so successful: severely closeted people can convince themselves of the truth of it easily, the fearful will be easily convinced, especially if told it by a clergiman, and it is incredibly romantic, especially among those whose religious tradition encourages them to identify with the Christians of the Early Church, to define one'sself as a crusader fighting the Good Fight against the forces of evil and defying those who would opporess you.

Posted by Ford Elms at Tuesday, 23 September 2008 at 4:16pm BST

"Jesus would do well to remember that his annointment did not come from humans, but from God, and God has ways of dealing with souls who deny and insult souls that help God's annointed."

Dear Cheryl, on re-reading the comments on this thread I noted your sentence (above-quoted) which seems to imply that Jesus might not 'remember that his anointing came from God'. This could be seen to mean that Jesus needs reminding of the fact that he was the Father's Anointed Messiah. In the circumstances, he could hardly forget the context of his vocation. He was surely not being precocious when uttering the words attributed to him in the anamnesis at the Eucharist; "Do this to remember me" - not to denigrate the importance of his Father, but to emphasize his incarnate presence as the Word made flesh, Only-Begotten Son of the Father. Jesus was, after all, 'Very God of Very God - begotten not created'.

Yours, in Him,

Posted by Father Ron Smith at Thursday, 25 September 2008 at 3:28am BST

"Jesus would do well to remember that his annointment did not come from humans, but from God, and God has ways of dealing with souls who deny and insult souls that help God's annointed."

Dear Cheryl, on re-reading the comments on this thread I noted your sentence (above-quoted) which seems to imply that Jesus might not 'remember that his anointing came from God'. This could be seen to mean that Jesus needs reminding of the fact that he was the Father's Anointed Messiah. In the circumstances, he could hardly forget the context of his vocation. He was surely not being precocious when uttering the words attributed to him in the anamnesis at the Eucharist; "Do this to remember me" - not to denigrate the importance of his Father, but to emphasize his incarnate presence as the Word-made-flesh, Only-Begotten Son of the Father. Jesus was, after all, 'Very God of Very God - begotten not created'.

Yours, in Him,

Posted by Father Ron Smith at Thursday, 25 September 2008 at 3:30am BST
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