Comments: some silly things

"FCA UK" LOL.

Speaking of strange vestments, I know of a priest (in another state, west of here) who actually still wears a maniple. Now does anybody else know a priest who still wears these things? And on the low-church side, there are a few in my diocese who wear preaching tabs, an equally odd item.

Posted by choirboyfromhell at Thursday, 2 July 2009 at 4:34pm BST

Time for ol' Bill Wantland to put away the Viagra: it's sending his mind to some bizarre places...

Posted by JCF at Thursday, 2 July 2009 at 5:44pm BST

"... a lesbian relationship." He should perhaps see a shrink about this kind of thinking...does he see an image of heterosexual sex when he sees a man celebrate the Eucharist? What a creepy way of thinking.

Posted by Cynthia Gilliatt at Thursday, 2 July 2009 at 5:48pm BST

Clearly Mr. Phillips does not know what he is talking about. Has he never heard of the English Ornaments Rubric?

While the Puritan clergy (400 years ago as well as today) avoid vestments, altar carpets, etc. High Churchmen do not. Mr. Phillips seems to think that “Ritualism” began with the Catholic Revival of the 1830s. He has (conveniently?) forgotten the Laudian reformers of the early 1600s who used incense, crucifixes, rich copes, religious statues, dignified ceremonial, etc.

But, then, evos tend to have very selective memories, don’ they?

Posted by Kurt at Thursday, 2 July 2009 at 6:07pm BST

Thank you, Simon, you just made my day!!! I'm laughing and crying at the same time. No wonder "Jesus wept" and continues to weep.
I know I'm a non-Christian, and am a lost lamb, but I always thought that the priest was a representative of the Son, not the Son Himself.
Interestng that ACNA is willing to recognize "dual integrity" within its own house, but not recognize it on GLBT issues when it comes to the wider church.

Posted by peterpi at Thursday, 2 July 2009 at 6:27pm BST

Choirboy - the clergy at my parish wear maniples regularly.

If the good Bishop's theory about gender and worship were true, wouldn't it also be true that the male members of the Church were involved in some sort of homosexual act in seeking union with Jesus?

Posted by BillyD at Thursday, 2 July 2009 at 7:06pm BST

""It's more important to be part of an organization preaching the Gospel as the Word of God," one cleric said."

As opposed to us nonACNA types who preach.......what exactly? Seriously, what do we preach, if not the Gospel? 'Cuz I always thought that when the priest, or deacon if we have one, intones "The Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ according to X", he actually WAS reading the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ according to X. Are you suggesting he processed to the centre of the nave with a copy of the Necronomicon tucked secretly inside the Gospel book so we wouldn't know? But the words are the same as the one in my Bible at home, you know, the one I never read and know nothing about, not being an Evangelical. And the sermon after the Gospel usually applies to the reading. Honest to God, get over yourself! Justify this slander or retract it.

"We're not going to go away," a female priest told me. "Women have been patient since the beginning of time.""

Neither are we, my duckie, and we fags have been just as patient as you for pretty much as long. And, while we're on the topic, explain to me how it was perfectly reasonable to reassess 2000 years of Scriptural interpretation so that you could get a collar round your neck and follow what you believed was the call of God to you, while it is wrong to do exactly the same thing so that gay people can follow God's call to them? Really, you need to answer this, or the rest of us are just going to go on talking about how big a hypocrite you are.

"Now does anybody else know a priest who still wears these things?"

Our rector, mission priest, and the retired clergy attached to our parish all wear maniples. Symbol of servanthood, what's wrong with that?

"I know I'm a non-Christian, and am a lost lamb"

Actually, peterpi, at the Good Friday liturgy, we are told quite clearly that we have been grafted on to the vine that is Israel, and upbraided by Jesus from the Cross for our historical treatment of the Jewish people. I know, there's lots that would see you confined to Hell. I am told there was once an execrable "Prayer for the Perfidious Jew", and Christians were not required to kneel for it. I'm sure that's one of the things the Reproaches of Good Friday covers. But then again, I have an attachment to Judaism to the point that I jokingly say I was a Jew in a previous life. My family doctor, a convert to Judaism and now active in the local Jewish community, used to tell me I have a Jewish soul.

Posted by Ford Elms at Thursday, 2 July 2009 at 8:21pm BST

choirboyfromhell, I'm sorry, but I don't understand your post. Are you trying to suggest that there are Anglican parishes where the priest doesn't wear a maniple?

Posted by toby forward at Thursday, 2 July 2009 at 9:10pm BST

It is quite obvious that the new 'Anglican Extreme' church will split in due course on the women's ordination issue

Posted by Merseymike at Thursday, 2 July 2009 at 9:36pm BST

"The priest at the altar is an icon of Christ. What image is that if the person at the altar is a woman? It’s a lesbian relationship.”
- Bishop Wantland (F.i. F. USA)

This really is a bit of scary theology from a supposedly learned 'Man of God'. His fear of lesbianism is so deep that he suggests that a woman priest, per se, entertains a sexual relationship with Christ (as a woman) at the altar. How bizarre can that be?

Sexuality apart, (though not for Bp.Wantland), the gender issue is surely, at least peripherally, but no less theologically, addressed by Saint Paul in his famous statement that "In Christ, there is neither male nor female, Greek nor Jew, etc". There will, of course, be rebutted by those who, while normally wedded to a literalistic interpretation of scripture when it suits their argument, will want to protest that this is a different context.

Bishop Wantland seems to change context with each and every argument he puts forward. This might be quite natural for someone who claims to be 'forward in faith' while exhibiting extreme symptoms of looking 'backward in nostalgia'.

Posted by Father Ron Smith at Thursday, 2 July 2009 at 9:57pm BST

toby forward: I can't imagine your parish as well...I thought that communion was a once a month affair and the priest took off his tippet and put a stole on..

Posted by choirboyfromhell at Thursday, 2 July 2009 at 10:51pm BST

“Of course. That’s our mission,” he said. “Christ is the bridegroom and the church is the bride. The priest at the altar is an icon of Christ. What image is that if the person at the altar is a woman? It’s a lesbian relationship.”

just breathtaking

Posted by counterlight at Thursday, 2 July 2009 at 11:33pm BST

I use the maniple in my parish. I've got quite a collection, since they have fallen out of use. As a friend used to say, in light of the symbolism, "Leave it to Rome to discard the symbol of service and keep the symbol of authority..."

There is also a practical function, in that it allows one to "feel" the edge of the altar without having to look at it.

And ain't Bill Wantland a hoot? Then again, his Christology has never been sound...

Posted by Tobias Haller at Thursday, 2 July 2009 at 11:57pm BST

Bishop William Wantland was quoted as saying:
-snip-
"'Of course. That’s our mission,' he said. 'Christ is the bridegroom and the church is the bride. The priest at the altar is an icon of Christ. What image is that if the person at the altar is a woman? It’s a lesbian relationship.'"

Is he saying that a symbolic lesbian relationship would be a bad thing?

I just don't understand the Bishop's comment. It doesn't sound very logical.

Posted by Steve Caldwell at Friday, 3 July 2009 at 2:27am BST

"I am told there was once an execrable "Prayer for the Perfidious Jew", and Christians were not required to kneel for it."

Ford, some Christians still use it, unfortunately,

http://freudig.blogspot.com/2009/03/orthanglicanism.html

Posted by BillyD at Friday, 3 July 2009 at 2:29am BST

re the maniple: I should imagine that more than the simple art of manipulation will be need to bring together the dissident groups of the new ACNA province. There will be those (like the protestant Archbishop of Sydney, who wears collar and tie to address his Synod meetings) whose taste runs to jeans and stole for Baptisms, who have to co-exist with the ultra-montane former bishop Jack Iker, whose links with the Shrine of Our Lady at Walsingham have recently gained him credibility with the A.C.s.

How on earth these sartorially-challenged clergy (on the one hand) and the vestmentality of those who 'wear the lot' are going to get on together in the sanctuary is barely worth contemplating -and that's only about the way they dress for formal occasions! What about the way they wash the Lord's dishes (or not) after celebrating the
Mass/Lord's Supper? The mind boggles.

Of course, we all know that such matters are not germane to the reality of what goes on at the Eucharist. But it can be of paramount importance to the 'way out' on either end of the spectrum.

I am off to Norwich to support the priestly ordination of a friend tomorrow in the lovely Cathedral. I wonder if he will have to wear a maniple? I'd better check on that. Oh, and yes! There will be at least one woman ordained.

Posted by Father Ron Smith at Friday, 3 July 2009 at 9:41am BST

Tomorrow, Saturday, the Diocese in Europe prays for Simon Sarmiento in the normal course of things, and I'd like to suggest that all of who gratefully read Thinking Anglicans should do likewise - it's also the 4th of July, when some of us might say 'free at last, free at last, thank God Almighty I'm free at last', so Thank You Simon, and many prayers in your direction.

Posted by Sara MacVane at Friday, 3 July 2009 at 1:46pm BST

Ford, I hope you realize that my "lost lamb" remarks were partly tongue in cheek. I thank you for your words.
As far as prayers for the conversion of pervidious Jews, I know that a concern by some Jews over bringing back the Tridentine Mass in regular use in the Roman Catholic Church is precisely that phrase. I for one feel that the Roman Catholic Church is the ultimate authority over how to practice its faith, and therefore mostly none of my business. But I would like to think that with the work started by Pope John XXIII, greatly expanded by Pope John Paul II, and continued by Pope Benedict XVI, that those references will be greatly modified.
Of course, if the modification happens, I suppose there will be breakaway Roman Catholics who claim the Church isn't Roman Catholic enough! If the original Tridentine Mass or the 1668 Book of Common Prayer were good enough for Jesus, they're good enpough for us!

Posted by peterpi at Friday, 3 July 2009 at 5:31pm BST

Tobias: I supposed if any of us used the phrase "dual integrity" we'd get kicked in the mouth. Yes, simply amazing...

I once got off of a ship in frozen Sturgeon Bay WI and had to fly out of Green Bay. I called the primary downtown parish church there (it was Sunday night) and asked about if an evensong was sung. The cleric who answered the telephone replied that they'd never perform an evensong, but that they were going to have 'benediction'. My response was "huh?".

I wonder if the concept of "dual integrity" of us bantering in the spirit light-heartedness over churchmanship can evolve to those who are so sadly rigid in their out-of-date theology.

Posted by choirboyfromhell at Friday, 3 July 2009 at 8:45pm BST

CBfromH, "Dual Integrity" sounds to me a bit like the old concept of having one's cake and eating it too. Or perhaps the Dodo's maxim: "Everybody has won, so all shall have prizes." Or perhaps something to do with Schroedinger's Cat? Pluriform truth, anyone? Relativism? Dare we say, Inclusivity?

I think not. For this sudden attack of "Big Tentism" is halfhearted if the tent is soon going to be replaced with a perfect temple in which the mission is eventually to get rid of all that confusing lesbian imagery, and replace it with the good old fashioned image of a male in frills -- or necktie, as the occasion provides. ;-)

Posted by Tobias Haller at Friday, 3 July 2009 at 10:50pm BST

"The cleric who answered the telephone replied that they'd never perform an evensong, but that they were going to have 'benediction'."

That's weird - whenever I've been to Benediction it's usually been after Evensong.

"in that it allows one to "feel" the edge of the altar without having to look at it."

Sort of like an ecclesiastical antenna? Or whisker, if you want to make a cat analogy.

Posted by BillyD at Friday, 3 July 2009 at 11:36pm BST

BillyD, in keeping with Schroedinger, let's definitely go with the cat's whisker.

And now I really must turn off the computer and finish packing, as the flight to Anaheim is very early tomorrow morning... Peace to all. T.

Posted by Tobias Haller at Saturday, 4 July 2009 at 12:23am BST
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