Comments: Swords crossed over a crucifix

Good googly-moogly, what sophistry! A crucifix represents the "separation of religion and State"? Teaching "the historical importance of Christianity in Norway" supports "the increasing pluralist nature of Norwegian society"?

I agree, however, that these half-measures, as decided by the ECHR, don't cut it. It ought to rule that *establishment of a particular religion itself*, in any/every nation, is inconsistent with the European Union, and must be abolished. With establishment comes INEVITABLE violations of human rights. Be done w/ establishment already, and let ALL religious groups rise or fall on a voluntary basis! [In THIS case, it's not just the (U.S. of) "American Way", it's the only just, SANE way to go.]

JCF, who if had been compelled to "say the Lord's Prayer" in school, would almost CERTAINLY be an atheist today. God bless you, Madalyn Murray O'Hair, whether you would have wanted that blessing or not! ;-)

Posted by JCF at Thursday, 31 December 2009 at 9:28am GMT

There are numerous and perfectly appropriate places to affix crucifixes. The walls of state-sponsored schools is not one of them.
The Italian government, in its desperation to hold onto a religious custom, is engaging in the same kind of argument that the US Supreme Court has engaged in for some time with creches in front of public buildings, and that is to say that in a secular context, religious symbols lose their religious meanings. That should be an affront to every devout Christian.
The crucifix has a specific religious meaning. So does the creche. To reduce the former to a warm fuzzy symbol of values, and the latter to only being a warm fuzzy scene of a homeless couple and their baby spending the night in a barn is a desecration.
A modern secular state shouldn't advance any specific religion. But in its efforts to desperately hold on to certain customs, it shouldn't destroy those religions either.

Posted by peterpi at Thursday, 31 December 2009 at 4:17pm GMT

Where I am a creche is a child mindding facility

Posted by Rev L Roberts at Thursday, 31 December 2009 at 5:09pm GMT

I think it is a little mischievous to reference the separation of church state and the US Constitution. This was decided entirely (and unanimously) on the basis of the European Convention on Human Rights referring to the right to bring up children according to your own views (interesting in other contexts for other reasons).

It doesn't mean you can't have a crucifix in any school only that it's a breach of human rights to do so in secular state run schools that people are obliged to use.

The whole case is the attempt to extend the influence of Christianity through institutional power in a way that's fast becoming out of date.

Seems to me like a sensible ruling.

Posted by Craig Nelson at Thursday, 31 December 2009 at 5:15pm GMT

Heard of the Georgetown University Crucifix Wars? There was a big kerfuffle when some idiot administrator decided that the crucifixes in classrooms of this Catholic college should be taken down in the interests of "diversity." There was a big protest movement against this. The pro-crucifix party included students of all religions as well as Jewish and Muslim chaplains.

Crucifix wars have played out in lots of Catholic college in the US--including my own.

I detest this stupid puritanism. In the US religious symbols in public spaces are verboten--but it's not verboten to teach Creationism/ID in the public schools if the local school board wants it.

I like religion. I'd like to see religious symbols all over the place, including crucifixes, Buddha statues, Hindu idols and anything else that's available. What's the problem?

Posted by H. E. Baber at Thursday, 31 December 2009 at 11:49pm GMT

Mr Baber, I wholeheartedly agree with you. I would argue that being religious and manifesting it in signs and symbols is a sign of defiance against a false "pluralism" that actually wishes to wipe out the religious sense inherent in humanity that no ideological scheme has been able to wipe out.

On that note, I wish everyone a blessed feast of the Circumcision and Holy Name of Jesus Christ! Happy new year.

Posted by Ren Aguila at Friday, 1 January 2010 at 1:37am GMT

Talk about non sequitur! We're not talking about crucifixes in *Catholic* universities. Nor are we talking about some sort of montage of religious symbols "all over the place". We're talking about *one* religious symbol, the crucifix, in *one* taxpayer-paid-for place, the state school classroom. THAT is what the ECHR ruled against, and rightly so (IMO).

Happy New Year to all: religious, secular or somewhere in-between. ;-)

Posted by JCF at Friday, 1 January 2010 at 2:45am GMT

In Italy, the whole problem of religious symbols in secular schools should not be an issue. The only way to allow such a situation would be to allow any and all religions to display their own religious symbols. After all, in Western airport building, where there happens to be a facility for people to pray, their is usually provision for all faiths - and for anyone to pray - with various religious symbols. No-one complains.

Anyway, the theory of state-sponsored religion's hegemony is over, surely - if only because this has been a primary source of factions and 'holy' wars. If God is Creator of All Peoples, then all religions which honour God are loved by God.

Posted by Father Ron Smith at Friday, 1 January 2010 at 9:54am GMT

It would be helpful for someone to clarify the relationship between the Italian state and the Catholic Church.

Does anyone here know if the Italian government makes any financial provision for Catholic schools, or whether the origins of the present state school system lie in parish schools?

The Norwegian case discussed at the end of the article raises another question. Given that Norway has an established Church, it strikes me that at least some teaching of Christian principles is embedded in the mission of the state school system.

Posted by kieran crichton at Friday, 1 January 2010 at 10:03am GMT

In Italy any group may found a school 'at no expense to the public' - those attending the school will have to be able to pass a public test administered by the Department of Public Instruction, if the school (or university) is to be recognised. As a long time resident of Italy (not at the moment though) I would say that crucifixes should be removed not just from public (USA use of the term) schools, but also from courts of law, post offices, and lots of other public offices where they remain affixed. The presence of crucifixes in those places seems to me totally impious and often blasphemous. Just one priest's idea of course.

Posted by Sara MacVane at Friday, 1 January 2010 at 5:56pm GMT

Sara's contention must be the very best solution to the placement of a crucifix in public places - especially in the courts of some parts of italy, where the 'justice' system is often tied up with un-Godly organisations like the local Mafia.

Posted by Father Ron Smith at Friday, 1 January 2010 at 10:20pm GMT

"It doesn't mean you can't have a crucifix in any school only that it's a breach of human rights to do so in secular state run schools that people are obliged to use." - Craig Nelson, on Thursday -

This seems eminently reasonable to me. At least, the state is not banning the use of religious symbols in their own context - which is in the buildings where faith precepts are taught and honoured by those willing to enter that specific environment.

To insist that all state schools identify with the majority faith's religious symbols, would be to exclude those whose faith is of a different order or none. Simple democratic principle would require the presence of all symbols of religion or none - which is what the European Court seems to be advocating here. If Islamic students are attending a state school in the U.K., they would not expect a crucifix to be part of the 'decor'.

Members of the European Union countries have to decide for themselves whether they want true democracy in all matters - including the issue of religious tolerance, or not. It would seem that the European Union is opting for the integrity of a democratic system of mutual respect, which is common to all members.

Posted by Father Ron Smith at Thursday, 4 March 2010 at 11:38pm GMT
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