Comments: more about Southwark

I know that we have been here before but shouldn't a congregation which withholds its diocesan quota on the grounds that it doesn't like its bishop have the clergy's stipend stopped?

Posted by Richard Ashby at Tuesday, 6 July 2010 at 9:27pm BST

The conservative evangelicals have achieved great power through bullying and threatening to leave the Church. Anglo-Catholics who cannot bear the thought of a woman's hands on their heads have done the same.

This is nonsense. The only outcome of accommodating a bully is that the bully will demand more. Accommodation only dignifies these folks' claims and gives them a heady sense of power.

The ABC and others in charge need to come to their senses and stand up to bullying. Then we will discover how hollow and pathetic all this effort to control by intimidation actually turns out to be.

Posted by jnwall at Tuesday, 6 July 2010 at 10:27pm BST

One can't fail always to be impressed by Fr Colin Coward's reasoned arguments, the gentle way in which he expresses them and his lack of rancour. Contrast that with the ugly voices of Sugden, Raven and their bigoted ilk and it is clear a gay priest is much nearer to Christ than the bigots who would be rid of him.

Posted by Rev Sidney Jensen at Tuesday, 6 July 2010 at 10:27pm BST

"We would support churches in Southwark seeking alternative oversight should Dr John be appointed".

- Paul Dawson, 'Reform' Statement -

SO! the oxymoronmically-named 'Reform' spokes-person is nailing his colours to the mast on this particular issue!

This entity ('Reform') is as mis-named as the one entitled 'Forward in Faith'; in that there is very little 'reformation' or 'forward-looking' paradigm involved in the testimony of either sodality.

The inference here, though, is currently couched in the threatening terms of out-and-out rebellion - against the Mind of the Church - if it should turn out that Dean Jeffrey John actually become the next canonically-appointed Bishop of Southwark.

These stand-over bullying tactics have been the culture of symptomatic harassment of the ABC and other leading Bishops of the Church of England in the recent past. Let's all hope and pray that the bullying does not pay off once more - to the permanent detriment of good order and discipline in the C.of E. and the Anglican Communion as a whole. Let 'Semper Reformanda!' not be scuttled by any group of backward-looking world-denying anti-gay or anti-women 'men-of-the-cloth'.

Posted by Father Ron Smith at Wednesday, 7 July 2010 at 1:51am BST

If I had been Giles Fraser... I would have said to Canon Sugden.


Will you confirm on this radio programme that amongst so called bible believing Christians there is no consensus as to what constitutes heterosexual immorality. That is you can never agree what the Bible says about diviorce and re-marriage. Will you distance yourself from ACNA for approving bishops who are divorcees?


That would have stopped him in his track....

Posted by Robert Ian Williams at Wednesday, 7 July 2010 at 6:30am BST

Fr Sugden has apparently not yet learned that with homosexuality as with National Socialism, analogies are doomed to fail. Throw embezzlement on the pile of nefarious activities to which the relationships of gay Christians have been likened. It's a step up from paedophilia, but the Radical Right's shrill insistence against any accommodation of faithful people just trying to play the hand they've been dealt is well past its sell-by date.

Fair point to Fr Sugden for pointing out the inanity of being hung up on the casuistry of celibacy - it's just a pity he doesn't take it to its logical conclusion and acknowledge that it is the moral character of relationships that counts and not the crude ability to insert tab A into slot B.

Posted by Geoff at Wednesday, 7 July 2010 at 6:33am BST

I'm surprised to find myself partially agreeing with the statement from Reform. There at least some of us in the diocese of Southwark that want to "walk in a different direction to the Church of England’s doctrine"

The walk in question being away from discrimination...

Posted by Tom McLean at Wednesday, 7 July 2010 at 8:25am BST

Geoff, Canon Sugden would not accept the title Father......it has only used in Anglican circles since the Anglo-catholic revival of the nineteenth century.

Evangelicals do not like the title Father as it undermines what Jesus said, about calling no man Father. Of course they take that out of context.

Mainstream Anglicans address their minister as Rector or Vicar, or Mr/ Mrs.

Posted by Robert Ian Williams at Wednesday, 7 July 2010 at 5:36pm BST

Geoff, Canon Sugden would not accept the title Father......it has only used in Anglican circles since the Anglo-catholic revival of the nineteenth century.'

RC secular (diocesan) priests were also called "Mister" up to the nineteenth century too.

Posted by Pantycelyn at Wednesday, 7 July 2010 at 8:45pm BST

RIW: "the title Father... has only used in Anglican circles since the Anglo-catholic revival of the nineteenth century"

Of course, Roman Catholic secular priests were not referred to as "Father" before that time either, Robert.

Posted by Fr Mark at Wednesday, 7 July 2010 at 8:50pm BST

Pantycelyn: "Canon Sugden would not accept the title Father"

Which would be one of the reasons some of us would use it... For the amusement, rather than maliciously, mind!

Posted by Tom McLean at Thursday, 8 July 2010 at 10:13am BST

One of our more mischievous Southern ladies here in the Diocese of Georgia made a point of referring to an *extremely anglo-catholic* "orthodox" type here as "Mr." or "Reverend" - the more irritated he got, the bolder she got, jovially calling him "Rabbi" and "Roshi" and, on one memorably-explosive occasion, "Baba-ji".

Posted by MarkBrunson at Friday, 9 July 2010 at 5:47am BST

Laughter must have its place.

Posted by Pantycelyn at Friday, 9 July 2010 at 10:23pm BST
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