Comments: mid-July opinion

Gerald Warner: "Once any individual becomes convinced of the truth of the Catholic faith, he is under an immediate obligation to make submission to the Sovereign Roman Pontiff and any delay in doing so is a sin against the Holy Ghost, imperilling his salvation."

Attitudes like this one are why my grandfather left the Roman Catholic Church.

Posted by Jeremy Bates at Saturday, 17 July 2010 at 9:46am BST

Mr. Warner's rather choosey attitude to the magisterium sound alsmost.....Anglo-Catholic. And he sounds like such a nice chap.

Posted by Lister Tonge at Saturday, 17 July 2010 at 12:22pm BST

In my weaker moments, when I weary of Anglican infighting and ponder the attractions of crossing the Tiber, I read Damian Thompson and Gerald Warner and I think again.

Posted by rjb at Saturday, 17 July 2010 at 1:04pm BST

Again from Gerald Warner: " If the Anglican liturgy is “a precious gift nourishing the faith”, why did the restored Catholic Church burn its author Cranmer as an apostate and heretic?"

It is refreshing to hear an RC admit that the Church was in the heretic burning business, instead of trying to pass on responsibility to "the secular arm."

Posted by Bill Dilworth at Saturday, 17 July 2010 at 1:37pm BST

Hywel Williams wrote in his column "The contemporary Anglican surrender to management methodology has also added a new level of nausea to the traditional odium theologicum. It's hardly surprising that parish clergy are starting to join Unite in order to defend themselves against bishops who venerate consultants McKinsey rather than the saints. But the real basis to the Anglican craze for episcopacy lies in a neurosis that is now almost five centuries old."

It is an astute observation. It certainly resonates with what is going on here in Canada.

Posted by Rod Gillis at Saturday, 17 July 2010 at 2:37pm BST

Gerald Warner's piece is very clear. That's the marvelous thing about Rome - no ambiguity at all.

Posted by Davis d'Ambly at Saturday, 17 July 2010 at 3:49pm BST

Religion makes a lot of history-like, biography-like and science-like statements. When they claim to have history, biography and science impact, then those disciplines should be let loose. I still don't get how Polkinghorne and Ward manage to make such doctrinal constructions out of the little amount of religious material they have to go on.

Posted by Pluralist at Saturday, 17 July 2010 at 6:19pm BST

Bill Dilworth on Gerald Warner reminded me of this now somewhat ancient view. "It was after prolonged hesitation that the addition of this chapter was decided on....I am still sensible of two objections to doing so. One is that to place this chapter at this point in the book is inevitably to give the impression that the work of Archbishop Cranmer is in some sense the climax of all christian liturgical development, whereas the whole story in no more than that of an incident, and that of no central interest to the subject of liturgy as a whole."

So begins Dom Gregory Dix in the chapter on The Reformation and Anglican Liturgy in "The Shape of Liturgy" The reality is, that the few Anglo-Catholics still using some form or other of the text from the Book of Common Prayer (are there any?), duded up in chasubles and the like, are basically engaging in liturgy that is a catholic costume party for Calvinists.

Posted by Rod Gillis at Saturday, 17 July 2010 at 6:34pm BST

I loved Ruth Wishart's piece.
Every time women break through yet another stained-glass ceiling, they find that there are several more ceilings, replete with frescoes and friezes, to bust through.
Somehow I thought 2014 was a firm date for the consecration of the first women bishop. If I'm reading her right, 2014 is the earliest possible date. If the 2012 Synod does not pass women bishops by 2/3 vote in all three houses, it starts all over again? With doubtless even more hurdles thrown up, literally and metaphorically, to block them?
It's a wonder modern women put up with us men at all. Granted, we perform one useful function for them, but otherwise, we're all too often an anvil around their necks, what with all the preening and crowing we do about how vital we are to God's redemptive purposes.

Posted by peterpi at Saturday, 17 July 2010 at 6:44pm BST

"the few Anglo-Catholics still using some form or other of the text from the Book of Common Prayer (are there any?)"

There certainly are on this side of the pond.

Posted by Bill Dilworth at Saturday, 17 July 2010 at 11:32pm BST

Interesting to know Bill. It's mostly the old fashioned conservative Anglo-Catholics who do so over here--and as afar as I can tell, music and liturgical supplements are the coping mechanisms of choice. I wonder what Ratzinger will do, within the ordinariate, to "rehabilitate" the BCP?

Posted by Rod Gillis at Sunday, 18 July 2010 at 1:16am BST

Rod:

It may be a consequence of differences in the CoE and TEC BCP, as well as a difference in preference for the dominant liturgy to be used.

In most TEC parishes, the Eucharist is the preferred Sunday morning worship, rather than Morning Prayer or some other service. And TEC's Eucharistic liturgy tracks the English-language RCC mass pretty closely (as a former RC I can certainly testify to that), so an Anglo-Catholic on this side of the pond is definitely in his comfort zone.

Posted by Pat O'Neill at Sunday, 18 July 2010 at 12:02pm BST

"It may be a consequence of differences in the CoE and TEC BCP, as well as a difference in preference for the dominant liturgy to be used...In most TEC parishes, the Eucharist is the preferred Sunday morning worship, rather than Morning Prayer"

Yes, our BCP has always been more Catholic than the the 1662 book, thanks to the Scottish Episcopal Church.

It should be noted that the "difference in preference" noted above is not simply the preference of the local congregation or priest, but the stated position of ECUSA in its current edition of the BCP.

Posted by Bill Dilworth at Sunday, 18 July 2010 at 1:32pm BST

Pat O'Neill posted "Rod:It may be a consequence of differences in the CoE and TEC BCP, ...In most TEC parishes, the Eucharist is the preferred Sunday Liturgy...And TEC's Eucharistic liturgy tracks the English-language RCC mass pretty closely (as a former RC I can certainly testify to that), so an Anglo-Catholic on this side of the pond is definitely in his comfort zone."

Thanks Pat. I'm in Canada. The practice here in the ACC is pretty much the same as TEC. One difference,we have two books in use; the 1962 Canadian BCP ( which owes a lot in to the Scottish & American 1928 liturgies) and the Book of Alternative Services-- a set of contemporary rites, large segments of which are lifted from the current BCP of TEC. When the Eucharist in our 1962 Book is used, it is usually locally adapted to conform to a more modern shape i.e. RCL lectionary, Prayers of the people, no comfy words, etc, and of course the Eucharistic Prayer is a Scottish/American like improvement over 1662. My original query was about how Anglo-Catholics in the CofE reconcile, if at all, their Catholic sensibilities to 1662. How do they get along, for instance, with a Prayer of consecration which consists of the words of institution prefaced by an anti-medieval Latin mass polemic? Posters here have suggested wide spread use of the Roman Rite by Catholics in the CofE. Old fashioned Anglo-Catholics in Canada have more to work with in our BCP, but even so make adjustments. Although they really like the emphasis on sin in the BCP.lol

Posted by Rod Gillis at Sunday, 18 July 2010 at 4:26pm BST

I agree with Rod that our Canadian BCP is more amenable to Anglo-Catholics than the 1662 English book. Indeed, many liturgical reactionaries in canada have tried to cloak themselves in the Anglo-Catholic mantle.

(In this diocese, they were quite distressed when they invited some American 1928 afficionado to speak and he actually endorsed the Canadian BCP as being a more successful and faithfully catholic revision than either the English ASB or the American 1979 BCP.)

In any event, I am moved to recall the observation of my then bishop (subsequently Primate) Michael Peers who thought it odd that a liturgy Anglo-Catholics had found woefully wanting could, with a few minor revisions, become the very standard of catholic truth.

Posted by Malcolm+ at Monday, 19 July 2010 at 6:34am BST

" The notion that formal adherence to objective truth can be made conditional upon being allowed to retain the cultural expression of schismatic practices defies the spirit of conversion."

- Gerald Warner, Telegraph -

This sentence alone ought make Catholic Anglican Dissidents think again about submitting to the allure of the Roman 'Ordinariates'. If they thought this sort of certitude of R.C. dogmatic theology to be their cup of tea, they should surely have submitted whole-heartedly to the Roman Magisterium - without further consideration of the validity of their Anglo-Catholicism.

The sheer hubris of this 'magisterial' viewpoint is what makes me, personally, so antipathetic towards the Roman initiative to 'capture' those Anglicans who want to remain both traditionally Anglican, while yet surrendering to the papal sovereignty model of Christianity.

Posted by Father Ron Smith at Monday, 19 July 2010 at 4:55pm BST

Super thanks to JSP for this bit:
Quote
I want a church that reconnects with our population and offers support to the needy. A church that's open to all. A church that cares for the elderly and blesses all unions, including same-sex civil partnerships. I don't want a church that's run like a private members' club, with special rules and regulations and exclusions.

I suspect that middle England would agree with me. Last week, the Daily Mail printed a letter from a female reader who said, "I would rather have a good woman priest than a mediocre male one. God said we're all equal in His eyes." I'm sure that point of view is echoed throughout the land. Not, however, in the upper echelons of the Anglican church
Unquote

Shall we discern her a bishop for clarity and common sense in our modern/post-mod era?

Posted by drdanfee at Monday, 19 July 2010 at 5:47pm BST
Post a comment









Remember personal info?






Please note that comments are limited to 400 words. Comments that are longer than 400 words will not be approved.

Cookies are used to remember your personal information between visits to the site. This information is stored on your computer and used to refill the text boxes on your next visit. Any cookie is deleted if you select 'No'. By ticking 'Yes' you agree to this use of a cookie by this site. No third-party cookies are used, and cookies are not used for analytical, advertising, or other purposes.