Comments: Ordinariate news

Looks like a parish wants to jump ship as well....

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2010/10/15/kent-parish-makes-first-move-towards-ordinariate/

Posted by evensongjunkie at Friday, 15 October 2010 at 4:47pm BST

May God bless him and allow him to find a spiritual home consonant with his understanding of the Catholic faith and Anglican heritage. He's showing an integrity that many have not shown "this side of the pond:" he's announcing his intention, resigning, and seeking a new place. While some may choose to go with him, he's simply taking an individual stand, and not trying to drag institutions with him.

Posted by Marshall Scott at Friday, 15 October 2010 at 4:52pm BST

But what ordinariate? There isn't one yet.

Posted by Wilf at Friday, 15 October 2010 at 5:11pm BST

Perhaps someone could throw him a nice "going away" party. Perhaps one could even invite him to it.

I wonder how he will feel once he is under the Pope's thumb. Benny won't let him get away with half the stuff Rowan has.

Posted by Deacon Charlie Perrin at Friday, 15 October 2010 at 5:36pm BST

I can imagine that John Broadhurst's brave decision will hearten and encourage others, who believe in following this path. Make it less lonely.

It is a huge commitment and act of faith, isn't it.

Graham Leonard seemed quite happy with his own decision. Augurs quite well.

Posted by Laurence Roberts at Friday, 15 October 2010 at 5:38pm BST

Ms. Arco of the Catholic Herald brings word of the first ordinariate-bound parish in the UK also:
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2010/10/15/kent-parish-makes-first-move-towards-ordinariate/

Let us all remember them in our prayers as they embark on their journey!

Posted by Jakian Thomist at Friday, 15 October 2010 at 5:54pm BST

'said he intended to tender his resignation before the end of the year and join the Ordinariate in Britain when it is established'

Surely he ought to be tendering his resignation now? Is he going to masquerade as a Church of England Bishop in the meantime?

'...Forward in Faith, which he says is not an Anglican organisation'

REALLY? Do the rest of them know this?

Posted by Richard Ashby at Friday, 15 October 2010 at 6:07pm BST

I don't understand why the PCC needs to consult the bishop, other than as a courtesy.

Whatever this (yet to exist) Roman Catholic group is - it will have only a legal framework within the canon law of that denomination.

If these people are to become RC's then I wish them the best of it, but let them go quickly and without leaving difficulties for those who must take up the cause of the Church of England in that parish.

Posted by Martin Reynolds at Friday, 15 October 2010 at 6:46pm BST

" He has said that he will remain the chairman of Forward in Faith, which he says is not an Anglican organisation."

- Catholic Herald - re Bishop of fulham -

One always suspected that F.i.F. was something other thasn purely 'Anglican' all along. However, Bravo to the Bishop of Fulham for his honesty in proclaiming his clear intention - unlike those who will be waiting for the Church of England's fiat on women bishops. Perhaps F.i.F. will become an outreach of the Roman Catholic Church. After all, it has the same 'forward motion'.

Posted by Father Ron Smith at Friday, 15 October 2010 at 7:27pm BST

"'...Forward in Faith, which he says is not an Anglican organisation'

REALLY? Do the rest of them know this?"

That made me smile as well. I'm not disagreeing with him....

Posted by Graham Ward at Friday, 15 October 2010 at 7:50pm BST

The Catholic Church will not ordain this man, as he was a Catholic before he became an Anglican. He will have to have his marriage regularised...but he could make a good layman.

Posted by robert ian williams at Friday, 15 October 2010 at 8:30pm BST

So, will the ABC permit St Peter's Folkestone to take its building with it when it goes over to Rome?

I found this on the subject of who owns the buildings in England: "The properties . . . can only be used in accordance with the rules of
the Church of England by law established. Because the buildings are held on behalf of the people the disposal and transfer of those buildings has to be regulated by the representatives of the people, that is parliament."

Will Parliament let these folks take their buildings with them?

Posted by jnwall at Friday, 15 October 2010 at 9:58pm BST

Resigning is incomplete. Resign and VACATE the Anglican premises, is what's needed to Pope! [Which is true for a priest-nee-bishop, *OR* a Popoid congregation occupying an Anglican parish]

Posted by JCF at Friday, 15 October 2010 at 10:14pm BST

I do not think he is 'masquerading' as anything. Let's not nit-pick about it. Do we seek blood too ? It's all Religion, it's all the Christian religion and its all church.

I just can't imagine how difficult it must be for him.

Posted by Laurence Roberts at Friday, 15 October 2010 at 10:22pm BST

John Broadhurst is a bishop in the Church of England. He has not been received into communion with the Pope and, as has been observed, cannot have joined the Ordinariate since it has not yet been formed. He said today that he has discussed the situation with the Bishop of London, and that the Queen has to accept his resignation when it is offered.

Posted by Roger Stokes at Friday, 15 October 2010 at 10:23pm BST

How does it work for a parish to join? Given that the process of declaring a church redundant involves statutory consultations taking into account the rights of parishioners, as distinct from congregation members, presumably they can't just take the church and assets with them - they don't belong to the congregation, they are held on behalf of the parish as part of the established church.

Posted by Ian Black at Friday, 15 October 2010 at 10:30pm BST

On other sites, certain dishonest CofE reactionaries would decry the nasty old TEC for insisting on keeping the buildings. If challenged, they would falsely claim that such horrid things wouldn't happen in the CofE.

Stand by to stand by.

Posted by Malcolm+ at Saturday, 16 October 2010 at 12:06am BST

Welcome, C of E, to the exciting world where parishes attempt to leave the denomination.

Perhaps you will now have some sympathy for the appeal to law that other provinces have had to make?

Posted by Jeremy at Saturday, 16 October 2010 at 1:37am BST

Robert Ian Williams wrote: "The Catholic Church will not ordain this man, as he was a Catholic before he became an Anglican. He will have to have his marriage regularised...but he could make a good layman." Right! We have rules, rules must be obeyed at all times. Papers Please!

Posted by Rod Gillis at Saturday, 16 October 2010 at 2:33am BST

A tiny Evangelical sect ( less than 100 persons) emerged after the 1992 women vote called the Church of England continuing. It was headed by David Samuel, a former Director of Church Society.

They managed to keep their building in Reading (a lovely colonaded Georgian building...which had never been owned in 200 years by the Diocese ), and for 15 years an Oxfordshire parish associated with the group. Their annual synod was held in its Church hall.

Posted by Robert Ian Williams at Saturday, 16 October 2010 at 6:52am BST

Ian Black says

"presumably they can't just take the church and assets with them - they don't belong to the congregation, they are held on behalf of the parish as part of the established church."

Perhaps he would ponder who paid for the orginal buildings in many cases? Were they 'gifted' at the reformation or just 'taken'. Not so nice if the shoe is on the other foot is it?

Secondly I think that most parishes have been cared for, maintained, cleaned and provided for by the congregation not the powers that be. If said congregation feels called to move then why not let them keep their building? What earthly reason is there to stop them? It is not as if Christian worship will not continue to be offered. It is not as if people will cease being welcomed and cared for. It is not as if the parish would lose anything much

Or are we more faithful to an institution and power games than Jesus and his Gospel?

A final point. You cannot refuse to provide for people and care for them and then be surprised when they revolt.

Posted by Ed Tomlinson at Saturday, 16 October 2010 at 9:21am BST

If it comes to it, could that parish church be one in which both denominations hold acts of worship ? Even if not a formal LEP in the first instance ?

After all we are no longer in the days of Newman. We have moved on a bit - haven't we ?
We have to respect any change of belief or development in people's thinking, surely. And if this leads to a change of denomination fair enough. My sense of things changes all the time. It's being alive isnt it and on some kind of journey / odyssey, enantiodromia - whatever metaphor you like.

A good many of us belong to more than one denomination or religion. I am a member of the Society of Friends as well; and it seems to me that a helpful step may be membership of the CofE as well as the Ordinariate. That would be a creative step, and probably help in all sorts of ways.It could be called dual membership. What could be better at this time. And make space for mutual irradiation, - who knows.

We're all interchangeable any way - and anything can happen in a ministry moment, or GOD moment - can't it. In the Kingdom , in XT, at the ultimate dimension -- or whatever we can all such graced moments, or times in time and beyond time...

Now and at the hour of our death

Posted by Laurence Roberts at Saturday, 16 October 2010 at 12:03pm BST

Ed Tomlinson gives food for thought. These things are complicated emotionally as well as in all the other ways.

I am glad I don't have to rake responsibility for it all. Just typing my not-so bon mot -- also being mean is a risk.(I find).

It strikes me as an Extra-ordinariate really. Quite an undertaking.

Not to be ventured without Hopkins poems in one's kit bag.


Posted by Laurence Roberts at Saturday, 16 October 2010 at 12:14pm BST

@ Ed Tomlinson asks who paid for the churches and maintained them etc. Well it depends when they were first built - St Peter's Folkestone is not a medieval church, it's Victorian. That aside, Church of England churches belong to the community - that's what established church means. So you can close other denominations and the assets belong to that church. If you close CofE ones it's much more complicated and if the building is sold the proceeds go to help pay for other redundant churches - the parish gets nothing. At the Reformation community churches remained in the hands of the community and continued to serve the same communities. It's just the Pope what got evicted, and a few clergy, and those who refused to go along with it... It is a fallacy to say that the churches used to 'be ours'.

Posted by Ian Black at Saturday, 16 October 2010 at 12:56pm BST

Surely the Church of England claims to be a national church....the Anglican remnant should form the nucleus of the parish and the others should go elesewhere. I think they wish to trade on Rowan's generosity.

By the way the Reading chapel, I mentioned was proprietry chapel. Church Society sponsor an independent evangelical church in Manchester, which was set up last century as an alternative to a parish taken up by Anglo-Catholics.

So there is nothing new under the sun.

Posted by Robert Ian Williams at Saturday, 16 October 2010 at 1:51pm BST

There certainly isn't any thing new under the sun. Wilfrid in the 7th century was ruthless in his purge of the church of those who lost the Roman/Celtic battle over the dating of Easter. There was no space for 'two integrities' there. Ironic then that he should be picked as one of the saints for the new society!

Posted by Ian Black at Saturday, 16 October 2010 at 3:42pm BST

Ed Tomlinson says what he says because he wants to be next after St Peter's Folkestone, and has already been instructing his congregation in the RC faith, contrary to his vows of allegiance to the Queen and of canonical obedience to his diocesan Bp.
When he posted that blog, he was supposed to be attending his diocesan synod, representing the clergy of his deanery who unwisely elected him, but he was instead at the feet of the Bp of Fulham.

Posted by high church protestant at Saturday, 16 October 2010 at 5:57pm BST

The parishioners of St Peter's, Folkestone have the right to come to their parish church for baptisms, weddings, funerals and the celebration of the Holy Communion on Sundays and feast days. The building is for that purpose, not for a breakaway group of Roman Catholics who already have their own building. By what authority would the former incumbent and former PCC of St Peter's (which is what they will become) remove the building from the parishioners? Send it a mission-minded priest and rebuild a new congregation in the existing church. It won't be dificult.

Posted by junius at Saturday, 16 October 2010 at 6:11pm BST

Were they 'gifted' at the reformation or just 'taken'. Not so nice if the shoe is on the other foot is it?

Neither, and it's not, Ed T.

The Roman Church broke communion, and went into schism, when its Bishop tried to over-rule the Ecclesia Anglicana. The parishes remained Ecclesia Anglicana as they always had been (I really shouldn't have to tell you this---if you've been properly formed as a CofE priest. But I guess you've been mainlining the Popoid counter-myth for too long now?)

Posted by JCF at Saturday, 16 October 2010 at 7:54pm BST

Pity the discussion has to focus on the buildings. It's a practical question but far less significant than other elements of the decision.

Posted by RJ at Saturday, 16 October 2010 at 8:14pm BST

Perhaps the Bishop of Fulham should check with our former Bishop Pope (Pope is actually his surname). He couldn't accept the ordination of women and so left his diocese in the United States to become a Roman Catholic. It wasn't long before he was back asking to be receives back into TEC. Rome wan't what he dreamed it would be. Anybody can make a mistake. We took him back. Anybody can make a mistake.

Posted by Tom Downs at Saturday, 16 October 2010 at 10:55pm BST

Ian Black Is it ironic -or rather appropriate given the authoritarianism of That Brand of anglo-catholicism !

Posted by Laurence Roberts at Saturday, 16 October 2010 at 11:08pm BST

The CofE, simply based on a majority vote by a parish, isn't going to allow that parish to walk away with a piece of real estate. The parishioners maintained or perhaps even paid for the property? So? They knew the rules. They merely did what was expected of them as have millions of faithful Anglicans all across Britain.

The ordinariates were created by the pope, let him find a place for them to worship. And pay for it.

Posted by Doug at Saturday, 16 October 2010 at 11:19pm BST

"The churchwardens of St Peter’s Folkestone, which is in the Archbishop of Canterbury’s diocese, will approach their archbishop in the first step towards joining an ordinariate."

Instead of the suggestion, posted here, that the Ordinariate people be allowed to use the Anglican Parish Church of Saint Peter; would it not be more sensible for them to have joint use of the Roman Catholic Parish Church in Folkstone? After all, that is their new faith base, and where their new loyalty might best be nurtured! Please leave the venerable Anglican Church to the faithful remnant who choose still to be Anglicans.

Posted by Father Ron Smith at Sunday, 17 October 2010 at 2:51am BST

Bishop Broadhurst at the FIF assembly praised Bishop Iker as a martyr, the victim of legal prosecution. What he didn't tell the Assembled folks was that Bishop Iker previously sued a church for leaving TEC! Bishop Iker went on to boast that the legal suits will cost his diocese nearly five million dollars.

The resolution of the FIF Assembly is also interesting as they affirm those who wish to remain in the C of E, but cannot accept "women bishops or priests." Note no mention of deacons! Even FIF have changed on this!

Posted by Robert Ian Williams at Sunday, 17 October 2010 at 7:07am BST

Robert Ian Williams; I cant imagine +Fulham would be leaving the C of E if he wasnt sure the RC Church would accept him and ordain him. He isnt the sort of chap to invite egg on his face.At 68 he will be leaving on a substantial bishops pension so he wont face financial hardship. I hope the incumbent of St Peter's Folkestone has a second string to his bow..30-40 folk ( assuming they do all go when it comes to it ...cf St Stephens Gloucester Rd/ St Matthews Bethnal green/St Mary Mag Munster Sq back in 1993...)are not going to provide adequate financial support.

Posted by Perry Butler at Sunday, 17 October 2010 at 8:43am BST

Judging by the comments here, some people propose to squat having become Roman Catholics.

I believe that would be contrary to Roman Catholic Canon Law, they certainly would not be able to celebrate the RC Mass in such a disputed property.

There are mechanisms to allow RC congregations to use our churches, but perhaps in the circumstances that might not be thought appropriate.

I too regret that the Ordinariate was foisted upon the worldwide Anglican communion without any discussion or consultation - I also regret that all that now leaves to be discussed is how they will leave our buildings and parish accounts in an orderly manner. I think the money has to be watched carefully too, for it may be that people have already begun to alienate resources and pledges. Forensic examiners will have to be employed to oversee the accounts.

Posted by Martin Reynolds at Sunday, 17 October 2010 at 9:35am BST

Martin Reynolds says:
"I too regret that the Ordinariate was foisted upon the worldwide Anglican communion without any discussion or consultation - I also regret that all that now leaves to be discussed is how they will leave our buildings and parish accounts in an orderly manner. I think the money has to be watched carefully too, for it may be that people have already begun to alienate resources and pledges. Forensic examiners will have to be employed to oversee the accounts."

I couldn't agree more. I wonder if this situation is being taken seriously enough by Rowan Williams and others within the CofE. The faithful of the CofE should not be burdened by this so-called prophetic action of the pope.

Posted by Doug at Sunday, 17 October 2010 at 12:44pm BST

The Sunday Telegraph article repays reading in full; further down the page it confesses- I think that's the appropriate term- that its informant, a retired priest Fr Jamie Houghton who is a member of the congregation, himself admitted that:

'some parishioners had "reservations" about the switch to Rome.'

and stressed:

'that the decision to move to full communion with the Catholic church had been agreed in principle but was still to be confirmed, possibly in January.'

They have apparently not yet taken any steps to find out the answers to:

'Questions remained over whether the diocese would allow them to keep the church, and there are also over housing, stipends, and care for the clergy.'

The parish priest is refusing to talk to the press, or at least the Sunday Telegraph; I have not checked further.

It does look rather as if someone thought that using the media in this way was a cunning plan to support John Broadhurst et al which is now, unsurprisingly, backfiring on them.

The population of Folkestone is around 53,000 and even that is not enough to provide the 35-40 people presently thronging St Peter’s Church; some of its congregation, not all of whom support the idea of moving to the Ordinariate, come from other coastal towns. Even the people at Lambeth Palace can work out the arithmetic on that one...

Posted by chenier1 at Sunday, 17 October 2010 at 4:28pm BST

With the departure of +Fulham, does this really spell our the end of the Episcopi Vagantes' activity within the historic Church of England?

I'm sure that TEC would welcome the same self- discipline within their own jurisdiction. They seem still to have relic vagantes 'missionary activity' from certain African Provinces - even though Southern Cone has suffered a recent knock-back. (This is not to refer directly to the clandestine activity of the Bishop of S.Carolina)

Posted by Father Ron Smith at Sunday, 17 October 2010 at 10:50pm BST

"If said congregation feels called to move then why not let them keep their building? What earthly reason is there to stop them?"

- Ed Tomlinson -

If this is just a straw in the wind, hoping for some sort of reaction that would suit your own situation, Ed., it probably won't work. As you well know, a Church of England parish church is part of the local scene, and as such is covered by the law of the land - which would not allow you to alienate the property to any Ordinariate.

Posted by Father Ron Smith at Monday, 18 October 2010 at 10:05am BST

A Bishop decides to be a Catholic. He's done well out of the CofE with its openess, inclusiveness and synodical structures. GIven the length of time he stayed it seems the church has been very good to Broadhurst. I note he fully intends to draw his full pension provided by the "evil" and "facist" CofE. If the synod does not vote for something we can't jump up and down and demand an "honoured place" to go against the tide. It's the nature of the beast and better than a Papal dictatorship any day. But it makes no difference if he leaves. The vast majority are staying. Thank God.

Posted by sibling at Monday, 18 October 2010 at 1:23pm BST

'...presumes everyone can have a say,” said the Rev. John Broadhurst, a traditionalist Anglican. “I think it’s become a kind of fascist democracy.” '

Does nt seem very strong on logic.

Presumably Broadhurst alone should get to speak ?

Posted by Laurence Roberts at Monday, 18 October 2010 at 8:45pm BST

I see from the London Diocesan Year Book 2010 Bishop Broadhurst has a personal secretary called Judith Broadhurst. Are they in some way related? Is she paid? Will she too be leaving with a pension after all these years?

Posted by Perry Butler at Tuesday, 19 October 2010 at 12:23pm BST

@ Tom Downs

You do know that Clarence Pope returned to Rome in 2007?

Posted by Conchúr at Tuesday, 19 October 2010 at 5:11pm BST

St Peter's Folkestone has not switched or defected to Rome. Its parish priest and many of its congregation did, but many did not, and St Peter's remains a thriving Church of England church. A year after its establishment, the Ordinariate has hardly grown in size, and has about nine hundred members out of over a million people who attend Cof E churches regularly, and millions more who attend occasionally.

Posted by Bill Tegner at Sunday, 27 November 2011 at 10:59am GMT
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