Comments: opinion

RE Giles Fraser's comment on +Gene Robinson:

The election and consecration of Gene Robinson meant a lot to me and to a lot of other people. The press focused on his opposition, but there were a lot of people in and outside the Church who were deeply affected by his becoming bishop.

For many people, this was the very first time that they seriously considered the Church to be something other than just another form of police force or collection agency.

Posted by Counterlight at Sunday, 14 November 2010 at 12:40am GMT

"What I dislike about the Anglican Covenant is not just that it is institutionalised homophobia, but that it is animated by a dangerous dream of perfect togetherness. The Covenant is an attack on traditional Anglican pluralism. Its architects think it is pluralism that got us into this mess we are in. If only we all thought roughly the same, they muse. What they do not see is that the cure is so much worse than the presenting problem.

- Revd.Dr.Giles Fraser, in the Church times -

Giles reminds me of the prescription of a pain-killer that can actually cause more problems
in the body organs than the mere pain it is meant to combat - which sometimes has to be endured. I agree with Giles that The Covenant may cause more problems than the original problems it has been designed to eradicate.

With the insistence on the disciplinary culture of Section 4 of the Covenant, which seeks to deal to a prophetic movement within the Communion - while yet ignoring the continuation of a culture of homophobia in the Global South movement; there is no attempt to come to terms with scientific evidence of plurality in gender and sexuality in God's creation.

Biblical literalism simply does not help the situation but only compounds the problems. This is why the charism of Reason was added to those of Scripture and Tradition as an equal partner in the founding ethos of Anglicanism.

Posted by Father Ron Smith at Sunday, 14 November 2010 at 4:11am GMT

Mr Oddie's article contains (half of) the insight that both the Church of England and the Church of Rome are minority churched in their lands. With 20th century Ecumenism this has caused a slight confusion in the Church of Sweden, which has always been (and remains) a majority church...

Posted by Göran Koch-Swahne at Sunday, 14 November 2010 at 9:55am GMT

The good thing about Gene Robinson retiring is that it demonstrates that he does not believe that the solution has to come through him or his own works. He does not cling to positions of office or power, and relies on faith in God that the bigger picture will be revealed and reformations rolled out, independently of his own efforts.

Better that that bishops who arrange extenstions to retirement ages so that they can cling to office.

Better that than chuch officers who are not only uninterested in the bigger picture, but actively move to thwart or reverse reformations.

God does what God does. Jesus and his priests are judged on whether they helped or hindered. They had 2000 years to get around to helping females, and 2000 years later claim that 2000 years of precedent justify their continuing oppression of women and abuse of children and others. Like the priests of Jesus time, the priests of this time own testimony demonstrates that they approve of what their forefathers did to prophets and others. Thus the blood of all the prophets, from Abel to Zechariah are on their hands, as much as on today's priests as those of Jesus' time.

Posted by Cheryl Va. at Sunday, 14 November 2010 at 1:47pm GMT

William Oddie does write some tosh. When will he face the fact that the Ordinariate will be atiny side show, with a disproportionate number of former clergy.

Posted by robert ian williams at Sunday, 14 November 2010 at 3:42pm GMT

"What makes Catholics suspicious is, if Broadhurst and his ilk were so convinced of their Catholicism, what has taken them so long to convert? They could have done so at any time. It would have been arduous, conceivably long, possibly lonely, maybe even difficult and certainly low-profile, but it would have had an integrity which seems lacking now that they have had so long to get used to the single issue motivating them now: the ordination of women as bishops, so long after they were first consecrated priests." - Stephen Bates, Guardian -

In Jeremy Fletcher's article on this thread, I was interested in his link to the above comment made by Stephen Bates in the 'Guardian C.i.F.' page. Stephen Bates, I think, hits on one of the uncomfortable facts that cradle Catholics will have to deal with - the issue of ex-Anglicans, especially clergy, entering the Roman Catholic Ordinariate with a pre-conceived agenda.

The obvious conclusion many of them will reach is that the itenerant clergy making the move were hitherto sanguine about their membership of the Church of England, and that it is only their opposition to female clergy that is causing their flight from Anglicanism into 'their' Church.

Many Roman Catholics are more than just hoping that their own Church will, at some time, be open to the possibility of female ordination; and that the absorbtion of dissident clerics into their patch will have an undesirable effect on that possibility. A welcoming 'reception' is not always automatic - especially in a body such as the Roman Catholic Church, which prides itself on the rigour with which it looks upon new adult *conversions*.

No doubt the ARCIC initiative will suffer. There is less incentive for the Church of England to subascribe to a union of churches which is already compromised by some of its ex-members.

Posted by Father Ron Smith at Sunday, 14 November 2010 at 10:04pm GMT

"There is no doubt in my mind that Robinson has been a prophet in the Anglican communion, recalling the church to its best instincts of inclusion and commitment to those who are excluded and marginalised. In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, rich nor poor, black nor white, gay nor straight. Some day this will be as obvious to the church as the fact that slavery is evil. But the forces of reaction remain strong and are getting stronger."

I second that.

Posted by Spirit of Vatican II at Monday, 15 November 2010 at 10:45am GMT

OoooH! one of those rare moments when I agree with everything in a RIW posting.

Posted by Martin Reynolds at Monday, 15 November 2010 at 11:03am GMT
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