Comments: St Paul's Cathedral: analysis of Health and Safety issues

Thank you for this.
IMHO as an ex-H&S official: none of these would seem to compromise the H&S of St Paul's.
They may compromise the H&S of the camp but as the H&S officials have no problems with the latter then I would suggest that these are spurious issues.
If other *businesses* like Starbucks can stay open then a *business* like St Paul's can remain open too.

"Slips, trips and falls exacerbated at night with cover of darkness."
So a problem at night when the Church would be closed for business anyway; becomes a reason to close the Church during the day? Any wandering drunk can trip or slip. Protest or no. Following this logic either St Paul's must maintain a security force 24/7 to escort drunks from the precincts. Or forever remain closed.
Sorry but: "No" I take serious issue with all of these except, possibly: "VIP security due to camp protest."
Because only important people count.
"Blessed are the Meek..."

Posted by brobof at Wednesday, 26 October 2011 at 2:16pm BST

If this whole matter didn't bear the imprimatur of Giles Fraser then I too would be sceptical of the claims made in the Dean's open letter.
It is possible the Dean and Chapter have had bad advice, indeed it is beginning to look increasingly likely that they have. It might be said that the Dean and Chapter have done all they reasonably can to press the protesters to leave, that they have a duty to open and that they might now do that "lawfully".

I am sure that they will find expensive experts to say that they are acting "lawfully" and that with the erection of a steel barrier or two all reasonable care has been taken - they might invite their insurers to give their imprimatur.

But they must find a way to open.

Posted by Martin Reynolds at Wednesday, 26 October 2011 at 4:40pm BST

From the Guardian website:-
The London Fire Brigade (LFB) said it had not advised the authorities at St Paul's to close the cathedral for fire safety reasons, saying it was satisfied that there were "no fire safety concerns with the camp itself".

Posted by Richard Ashby at Wednesday, 26 October 2011 at 6:09pm BST

It's just been annouced by the Dean that the Cathedral 'could' reopen on Friday. If this is because the protesters have relocated themselves then why, oh why couldn't this have been negotiated a week ago and the Cathedral's PR disaster avoided? Either the Cathedral has had some very duff advice which they have swallowed whole or there are some dinosaurs on the Chapter who ought to resign.

Posted by Richard Ashby at Wednesday, 26 October 2011 at 6:13pm BST

its a ballsed up retraction of a seemingly dishonest and silly tactic but it could've been so much worse.

The idea of police evicting the campers off the steps would've been a disaster. I, for one, would've been down there in a shot to be one more body in the way...

Posted by midlandsone at Wednesday, 26 October 2011 at 9:32pm BST

Why is the Bishop claiming the right to tell the protestors what's best for their cause? People in positions of privilege and power often assume the right to paternalistically tell other people "what would be best" for them to do. First his chapter closed the cathedral, garnering sympathy, because of non-specific 'health and safety' concerns. So the Occupy LSX members (who had already made changes in liaison with fire and safety officers) asked the Cathedral to state the specific things that needed addressing. For days this request for honest and open dialogue to sort out the concerns was ignored, calling into question whether the stated and generalised concerns were the real issue or simply a front for other reasons why the protestors should be cleared.

It was extraordinary that the Cathedral authorities were silent for so long, on a simple and honest request for clarification. Especially when people's health and safety were being invoked.

Then, as the loss of profits bit, and the Dean started to realise that he was being 'called' on these 'Health and Safety' issues - because the protestors were being constructive and reasonable, and the press could see they were... he announced that, in fact, Health and Safety was NOT an insurmountable problem after all, largely because of the protestors' co-operation and reasonableness.

But on the very same day that the Cathedral backed down, in the face of this co-operation, the Bishop of London announced that the protestors should leave - no longer on the grounds of health and safety, but because he wanted them to leave anyway. So Health and Safety was never the main reason.

(contd)...

Posted by Susannah at Wednesday, 26 October 2011 at 10:16pm BST

(contd)...

So in interpreting the Bishop's motives and views, one has to fall back on this paternalistic idea that "they should go" because he - the bishop - disagrees with them staying. His view can't really be isolated from the contexts of the Cathedral: its reliance on donations from a whole string of banks and corporates; its embeddedness in the whole City setting; and its focus on raising money through aesthetics, and being a tourist attraction, and charging ordinary people to come into church, and a whole business and management ethos that means, when confronted with the choice between upsetting your wealthy donors (and the City establishment generally) or distancing yourself from people peacefully protesting about the greed which ordinary people have had to pay for in cuts and the haemorrhaging of national wealth which should have really been for the people as a whole... he has created the appearance of coming down on the side of the wealthy and privileged establishment.

(contd)...

Posted by Susannah at Wednesday, 26 October 2011 at 10:18pm BST

(contd)...

He does not have consensus about this process of resort to law so the protestors can be forcibly evicted. His own Cathedral canon, the Rev Giles Fraser, who originally asked the police to move on, because he *respects* the right to peaceful protest, has said he will resign if the Church's legal action results in force to clear the area.

Many reasonable people, arguably the majority of the nation, agree with this camp, so the Bishop's action is highly political. That includes many in his own denomination, whose children will be effected by the debts piled up by banks for a generation.

There is the abiding sense that to the Bishop of London, the protestors are bringing down the tone of the neighbourhood, but what he doesn't seem to see, in taking sides, is that actually the neighbourhood of the City itself has harboured 'banksters' who have forfeited people's prospects and value, through reckless casino banking and corporate greed and gambling on the markets. It is not the campers who have lowered the tone of the neighbourhood, or the tone of the whole country.

I help out in the first aid tent 3 evenings a week. It is the least I can do, to support a reasonable, peaceful protest which is making the point that ordinary people are suffering - and will continue to suffer - for a minority's greed and a form of capitalism that has run amok.

Posted by Susannah at Wednesday, 26 October 2011 at 10:23pm BST

Martin Reynolds,

I say this as a friend who has seen many heroes come, fall and go - don't place any faith in "imprimaturs" or the people who give them. Giles Fraser is not a good man . . . because none are, according to the words we have recorded from Christ. He is fallible, self-interested, ignorant, just like the rest of us.

I'm so very concerned that we on the progressive/liberal side are so starved for spokespeople that we make near-messiahs out of anyone who speaks for us! Look at what we - including me! - have expected of President Obama.

Posted by MarkBrunson at Thursday, 27 October 2011 at 4:53am BST

The big problem I see is not the situation, but the response to it. If the cathedral chapter had simply responded with a definite answer about where their concerns came from, had admitted they'd been poorly-advised, or even had simply stated "Look, we need the tourist money and fear you're keeping them away," that would have been fine.

Am I being "fair" in placing it all on the cathedral? Perhaps not. Life's not fair, as we all know, but neither is following Christ in an imperfect world. If bishops and deans and such constantly decry the loss of their moral authority, how do they expect to regain it by behaving like a common landlord, even when legally-entitled? The CofE, particularly, claims a heritage and right of governmental/societal influence and participation - shouldn't they expect to be held to a higher ideal than a householder complaining about squatters? If they are going to claim a position of leadership, how is that helped by behaving just like everyone else, or, worse, like every out-of-touch, well-off person who feel threatened by "the rabble?" Their "rights" in this are simply not relevant, as, when one takes up the Cross, one hands over a lot of entitlement to the rights the world gives, while taking up the particular Cross of ordination pretty much gives away all those rights.

I haven't even gotten into the subjective areas of Christian moral responsibility in a tradition that speaks of God's opting specially for the poor!

It's seen as hypocrisy because *it is*.

Posted by MarkBrunson at Thursday, 27 October 2011 at 4:56am BST

Well, I never thought that the one to resign would be Giles. The dinosaurs are left in charge.

Posted by Richard Ashby at Thursday, 27 October 2011 at 8:24am BST

Kudos to Susannah

Posted by Counterlight at Thursday, 27 October 2011 at 2:12pm BST

I'm impressed with Giles Fraser's act. Resigning from a position of importance, as he has, is very brave and a sacrificial act. May it bear fruit for him in this world as well as the next!

Posted by MarkBrunson at Friday, 28 October 2011 at 4:24am BST
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