Comments: The Episcopal Church bishops vote to change marriage canon

What an odd statement from Justin Welby.

He seems to have failed to notice that a few people in the US were quite excited by the Supreme Court ruling on marriage, and that managing to get with the national mood a few days later looks like an excellent example of looking outwards. (I strongly suspect that the timing is luck, not judgement but still...)

Does General Synod grind to a halt and stop considering new liturgies if there have been too many terrorist attacks in the world in previous weeks?

Posted by Leon Clarke at Tuesday, 30 June 2015 at 3:29pm BST

Why is it that Justin Welby is so quick to express his "deep concern" over this move by the American bishops, whereas when Nigerian, Ugandan or other bishops express sometimes violently homophobic views there is no similar promptness in expressing his concern?

Posted by Jeremy Pemberton at Tuesday, 30 June 2015 at 3:34pm BST

Once again Justin Welby completely ignores the existence and the suffering of LGBTI people around the world in favor of the GAFCON fundamentalists.

Translation for LGBTI people:

"You are invisible. Your lives and your suffering do not matter to us, not even to the point I will mention you in my rebuke at all. We are far more concerned about those who persecute and hate you, often attacking you with violence and bringing pain and death to you and claiming they have a biblical license so to do. We don't want to upset them and make them angry with us. It's a shame you aren't willing to stay silent and invisible and continue in your suffering so we can appease the violent, the angry, the hateful, and the world in our midst. There are a lot of them and we must remember the tyranny of the majority always rules."

Sad but predictable.

Posted by Brian Davis at Tuesday, 30 June 2015 at 3:44pm BST

The C/C of TEC required a majority of all Bishops entitled to vote (and that is a supermajority, counting retired Bishops, etc). 129 is not nearly enough.

This is also why a Trial Rite failed in 2012.

But within 3 years, canonical obstacles like this are simply ignored.

I don't mention this because it will have any effect. It won't. When it is full steam ahead, so it is.

I was surprised to see the ABC respond so quickly. I think he could probably see what we all could see. This was hardly a surprise.

Posted by cseitz at Tuesday, 30 June 2015 at 4:01pm BST

The Episcopal Church Bishops formalized what's already happening. Marriages between same sex couples are occurring within the Episcopal Church in many jurisdictions across the US. Formal church blessings of a civil marriage have also occurred. And, just yesterday, two bishops with dioceses in states that were directly party to the recent Supreme Court case announced that marriages could now proceed, subject to the standard rules and regulations. TEC is no longer holding Episcopalians hostage to the bias and bigotry of others. Perhaps ABC Welby could look at the damage being done to LGBT Anglicans in the UK and do likewise.

Posted by IT at Tuesday, 30 June 2015 at 4:01pm BST

I am shocked that accepting same-sex marriage in the Church precludes any compassion for racist and terrorist murder victims. This is an insult to gay people, as well as to those who have lost loved ones.

Posted by FrDavidH at Tuesday, 30 June 2015 at 4:22pm BST

Oh dear. So, we are responsible for continuing to promote inter-religious competitive gay-bashing in the global South and deny equal rights to people in the global North where rights are more clearly defined in law? Fantastic position to play, Justin, I must say, well done. Just where Christians ought to be. [facepalm]

Posted by Katherine at Tuesday, 30 June 2015 at 4:24pm BST

Love wins. So does Justice. The church is at it's very best when it is embodying the Love of Christ, seeing Christ in all people, and doing Justice. The ABC should be much, much more concerned with love and justice.

Posted by Cynthia at Tuesday, 30 June 2015 at 4:27pm BST

Terrorist attacks is just whataboutery and evasion. The Episcopalians are pointing the way forward and remedying millenial injustice.

Posted by Spirit of Vatican 2 at Tuesday, 30 June 2015 at 4:41pm BST

Does "a space for the strengthening of the interdependent relationships between provinces" mean suspending justice for gay and lesbian people indefinitely, for fear of antagonising those who advocate that suspension of justice?

What the Episcopal Church is proposing is proportionate and reasonable, and bear in mind that *no-one* is forced to marry a gay or lesbian partner unless they choose to.

"A space for the strengthening of the interdependent relationships between provinces" has been the argument used repeatedly to uphold a supposed 'status quo' in England, notwithstanding the fact that society has moved on, affirms equal marriage, and an increasing number of people in the pews do too.

It is also not fair to use the suffering of people in terrorist attacks as any kind of reason why we should take the lives and relationships of lgbt people as somehow less important and less urgent. The marriage of gay and lesbian couples has *nothing* to do with the suffering of people in the world.

On the contrary, it is part of the answer. There's not enough love in the world as it is. To link world suffering with the grounds for refusing gay marriage is facile I my opinion.

Posted by Susannah Clark at Tuesday, 30 June 2015 at 4:43pm BST

"At a time of such suffering around the world, he stated that this was a moment for the church to be looking outwards."

Words almost fail me.

The United States Supreme Court just held that same-sex marriage is a constitutional right. And the Archbishop of Canterbury thinks The Episcopal Church is looking inward?

Evidently by "looking outwards" the Archbishop really meant "looking to Anglicans in Nigeria, Uganda, and Burundi."

Why the interests of those provinces should take priority over the interests of faithful Episcopalians, in the deliberations of The Episcopal Church, is something that the Archbishop utterly fails to explain.

Nor, of course, can he justify why The Episcopal Church should paint itself into a theologically conservative corner, when the culture that surrounds it is moving in exactly the opposite direction.

Posted by Jeremy at Tuesday, 30 June 2015 at 4:49pm BST

"At a time of such suffering around the world, he stated that this was a moment for the church to be looking outwards."

What? Like looking outwards to the countless thousands of people who are currently barred from getting married in an Anglican church because of their sexuality? Seems right to me.

Posted by David Chillman at Tuesday, 30 June 2015 at 4:58pm BST

Grief and stress...yes we will pray for relief for all people including LGBTI Christians/others who are terrorized, brutalized and demonized throughout the various provinces of the Anglican Communion (daily).

Once again, Justin Welby, Archbishop of Canterbury, sees injustice, the pain of others and lifetimes of suffering...selectively.

Posted by Leonardo Ricardo at Tuesday, 30 June 2015 at 5:18pm BST

The Archbishop of Canterbury puts far more strain on the Communion by this one-sided and ungracious statement than the US based Episcopal Church has done by changing their marriage canon, something that others in the Communion are considering doing soon too.

Posted by Kelvin Holdsworth at Tuesday, 30 June 2015 at 5:20pm BST

Can the ABC not manage even a word of congratulation for those who will now be able to marry in church before leaping into worry about the effect it will have on bigots?

Posted by Jo at Tuesday, 30 June 2015 at 5:27pm BST

Utterly miserable response from Welby, greeting people's glimmer of hope with backpedalling caution and negativity. Welcome to the history-books.

Posted by Tim at Tuesday, 30 June 2015 at 5:29pm BST

The Archbishop of Canterbury today expressed deep concern about the stress for the Anglican Communion...

On his narrow perspective I'd like to see more and more stress for the Anglican Communion. But it does show how recent optimists in Anglicanism here (and mostly elsewhere) are to be brought back to reality. You here will not only be rejected in terms of progress to be made, but continue to be sacrificed in order to reduce the 'stress' of the Anglican Communion.

Posted by Pluralist at Tuesday, 30 June 2015 at 5:48pm BST

Thank God for the Episcopal Church in the USA.Does Welby not care for the suffering he and his like cause to faithful members of the C of E who are gay or lesbian - not to mention the shame he causes those of us who support them.

Posted by Jean Mayland (Revd) at Tuesday, 30 June 2015 at 6:08pm BST

So no acknowledgement of the need for a "Reality Check" from Justin Welby, as his RC counterpart in Ireland called for after the equal marriage referendum there. We shouldn't be in the least bit surprised by his graceless reaction. But we should be profoundly shocked all the same.

Posted by Simon R at Tuesday, 30 June 2015 at 6:20pm BST

Does anyone know when the House of Deputies will vote on the marriage equality resolutions it has yet to endorse?

I rather hope that a strong stand for love and justice will assist those in all faith communities who are trying to resist violent extremism.

Posted by Savi Hensman at Tuesday, 30 June 2015 at 6:51pm BST

"...cause distress for some..." What is this distress? That their bigotry no longer destroys the lives of other? How does someone making a pledge of love and loyalty and commitment to their spouse rise to the level of causing distress to anyone not beholden to cruel doctrine or not obsessed with controlling other people? I call nonsense. No one in their right mind is experiencing any distress that they haven't freely chosen to feel. It is self-imposed distress and a phony victimization complex at work. This fake distress deserves no attention from good people. Ignore it and it will go away.

Posted by Dennis Roberts at Tuesday, 30 June 2015 at 6:58pm BST

Does Welby give a sailor's cuss about the distress of LGBT people, particularly those living in rabidly homophobic provinces like Uganda and Nigeria? (Or, indeed, less rabid, but also homophobic, provinces like England.) If he does, he shows no sign.

Time, I think, for TEC to call on Welby to repent for sacrificing his LGBT sisters and brothers in Christ on the altar of unity. To repent of not even having the courage of his convictions, courage to say that he believes homosexuality is a sin, simply because the Bible tells him so. To repent of abdicating moral responsibility in favor of obeying immoral orders from a paper pope. To repent of having the arrogance to think he's the right to impose his cruel evangelical dogma on those who believe differently.

Congratulations to TEC and Scotland for leading the way. May all follow. May Welby go, and go quickly. Too long has he sat there, for any good he has done. In the name of God, Justin, go.

Posted by James Byron at Tuesday, 30 June 2015 at 7:16pm BST

Although clumsily written, I did not read the ABC's 3rd paragraph as suggesting that TEC should not have passed liberating resolutions in the midst of grief.

For once, I'm going to defend Justin. Such is power of love!!!


Just so you know, there are a lot of people talking about the violence in the world, but particularly Charleston and the recent burning of 6 or more African-American churches since. People are talking about "intersections" to bring people together in the hopes of furthering racial justice.

Posted by Cynthia at Tuesday, 30 June 2015 at 7:19pm BST

I think it would be helpful to understand more about Cantuar's position on this, not least because if I read the statement correctly it could mark the end of the honeymoon. What kind of media advice is he getting?

Posted by Anthony Archer at Tuesday, 30 June 2015 at 7:25pm BST

Pace the ABC, The Episcopal Church is simply trying to catch up with the world around it, having failed to lead on issues of fairness and equality.

Fortunately, the judicial branch is stronger in the United States than in England so the word "equal" now has to mean equal marriage. In England there was never an acknwledgement from the judiciary that marriage is a fundamental right. The legislative branch was stronger so it had to do the work on its own without the judiciary. And the church there insisted on being quadruple locked out of marriage, even though it is a state church.

The Episcopal Church, on the other hand, is merely hitching a ride with the secular world, having done little to bring about equality, unlike some other denominations such as the United Church of Christ.

If one wants to change the church it is best to start by changing the world. Eventually the church will catch up, though probably not the C of E.

Gary Paul Gilbert

Posted by Gary Paul Gilbert at Tuesday, 30 June 2015 at 8:31pm BST

C. Seitz, for an academic, you are not giving the full picture. The vote in the House of Bishops was 129 for, 26 against, and 5 abstentions. That's pretty huge, and I wouldn't be so sure that retired bishops would tip it away from a "super majority." It looks to me like you are looking for a "super duper majority."

The House of Deputies will pass it, unless they are displeased with the provisions given to conservative bishops. As is, all bishops have to make the rites available and find an avenue for couples to get married. It would be a shame to force some to have to leave the state to get married. Of course, they'd always be welcome in Denver and our Rocky Mountains.


Posted by Cynthia at Tuesday, 30 June 2015 at 8:51pm BST

It takes a majority of the HOB. This has always been interpreted to mean a majority of bishops who are present. No new interpretation of the TEC constitution took place. Those voting "no" agree.

Posted by John B. Chilton at Tuesday, 30 June 2015 at 9:42pm BST

What Doctor Welby doesn't say is that our " consultations and conversations" and women's ordination also cause equal distress to conservatives and some ecumenical friends.The Roman Catholic Church will probably view all marriages, heterosexual and homosexual in an Episcopal setting, as invalid.

For instance the RC Church does not recognize Mormon baptism ( even though it is made in trinitarian language and with water) Mormonism has departed from the real meaning of what the Church is and who God is.

Similarly Anglican orders were not recognized because Cranmer altered the words and gave them a protestant stamp and meaning. i.e not in this case marriage has been changed from its real meaning, which is procreative and unitive.

I am not acting as a troll and give this for serious theological reflection on the doctrine of intention.

Posted by robert ian williams at Tuesday, 30 June 2015 at 10:53pm BST

I believe it will be at 11.30 Wednesday morning, Salt Lake City time.

Posted by Simon Sarmiento at Tuesday, 30 June 2015 at 11:02pm BST

Following the Supreme Court decision, the Irish referendum and, by contrast, the general level of persecution and inequality that persists around the world, the resolution is surely of more global relevance than the agenda for his own Synod meeting in York in July, which discusses, inter alia: 'Draft Ecclesiastical Offices (Terms of Service) Amendment', 'Draft Ecclesiastical Property Order Legal Services (Annual Fees) Order', 'Faculty Jurisdiction Rules', and other worthy, but not exactly what you might call outward looking, subjects.

Posted by Andrew at Tuesday, 30 June 2015 at 11:33pm BST

Tears of happiness. :-D.. Thanks be to God, Alleluia!

Posted by JCF at Wednesday, 1 July 2015 at 12:34am BST

In my experience in the US, as both a Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christian, neither of those communions remarries converts. Though the hardline Orthodox who rebaptize *all* western converts, even RCs? Maybe they are a bit whacky, I don't know and its been years since I've set feet on the ground there.

**Applies only in the US.

Posted by Amanda Clark at Wednesday, 1 July 2015 at 1:53am BST

"Deep concern" is a kinder gentler "dire consequences".

Posted by Rod Gillis at Wednesday, 1 July 2015 at 4:01am BST

It is fully reasonable to assume that the same proportion that would have participated in a roll call vote affirmative on canons would have supported a Trial Rite, and in the latter case a majority of all entitled to vote is on the order of 140-150.

The rule is "a majority of all bishops entitled to vote." It was of concern in 2012. It was not even relevant in 2015.

Posted by cseitz at Wednesday, 1 July 2015 at 7:34am BST

"What Doctor Welby doesn't say ..." @RIW. Doctor? Really? I thought he had a Cambridge MA in History and a certificate in Theology from Cranmer Hall (where he reputedly hated his theological training and considered academic training a waste of time). Unless, of course, he has been given one of these honorary things. If so, please tell me it's not in Divinity. That would be the ultimate insult to so many genuine scholars.

Posted by James A at Wednesday, 1 July 2015 at 2:52pm BST

'"Deep concern" is a kinder gentler "dire consequences".'

That may be true, but I'm struggling to figure out what, if any, consequences might be dire, from the TEC perspective.

Lambeth Conferences seem to be on hold, because if the Archbishop calls one, the conference will only reveal and formalise the present lack of communion.

Otherwise, I'm sure many in TEC would be happy to wash their hands of an Anglican Communion structure that is catering to its conservative provinces, and trying to use their discriminatory wrath as an excuse to centralise power.

The Anglican Communion is a global family of churches. Nothing more.

Posted by Jeremy at Wednesday, 1 July 2015 at 3:31pm BST

Once again, our fellow Anglicans in TEC are paving the way for a much-needed climate for Reality Therapy in matters of human relationships.

In a society that inclines less and less to the formal institution of monogamous marital relationships, Same Sex Marriage might just provide a welcome trend in the other direction. Surely, what is important is the fact that couples - whether hetero or homosexual, are encouraged to live together in harmony, faithfulness and love.

Posted by Father Ron Smith at Wednesday, 1 July 2015 at 3:38pm BST

This suggests the Archbishop needs better advisers. Talk about distress being caused sounds like hypocrisy.

Posted by Flora Alexander at Wednesday, 1 July 2015 at 3:42pm BST

The Discussion by the deputies was originally slated for this morning at 11.30am but the most recent tweet from @Deputynews suggests it will be discussed 3.45pm (Salt Lake City is on Mountain Time, which is 7hrs behind the UK)

Posted by IT at Wednesday, 1 July 2015 at 3:52pm BST

Jeremy is quite right when he says that the Anglican Communion is a (maybe dysfunctional) family of Churches. It has never been claimed - until perhaps recently by some - to be A replica of RIW's much-vaunted Roman Catholic Church.

This is one of the reasons for the Reformation. For those who want to be told what to believe, there is always an option. For the rest of us, the relative enlightenment of God -given REASON is still part of our reformation heritage.

Posted by Father Ron Smith at Wednesday, 1 July 2015 at 5:14pm BST

Deeply discouraging. "Archbishop Justin Welby said that its decision will cause distress for some" is exactly the tired old argument that has kept justice for LGBTs on the back burner for decades. Does the Archbishop not believe that the opposite decision would have caused "distress for some" as well? And which distress calls for justice and bases itself on equal value before God?

"At a time of such suffering around the world, he stated that this was a moment for the church to be looking outwards." It seems feeble that the Archbishop feels the church can only address one thing at a time, or that LGBTs are not suffering around the world, from denial of equal rights to death in reactionary countries.

Deeply, deeply discouraging. What does he recommend? More years for the locusts to eat as LGBTs are denied rights, killed...?

Posted by Nathaniel Brown at Wednesday, 1 July 2015 at 5:35pm BST

Ron, I thought the Reformation was all about King Henry telling the English what to believe!

Posted by Tim Chesterton at Wednesday, 1 July 2015 at 5:36pm BST

There is live streaming on

Posted by Savi Hensman at Wednesday, 1 July 2015 at 6:25pm BST
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