Comments: Twenty bishops dissent from Episcopal Church marriage actions

Interesting to see who is in that list and who voted no.

Posted by Amanda Clark at Thursday, 2 July 2015 at 10:48pm BST

Given the vote - 173-27, with the House of Bishops voting 129-26 Tuesday, with five abstentions, the twenty are both insignificant and might even be accused of sour grapes. Why does the right wing think that the Holy Spirit cannot work through a democratic process? I'm certain that had the vote gone the other way, they'd have had no problem.

Posted by Nathaniel Brown at Friday, 3 July 2015 at 1:05am BST

So?

Posted by Dennis Roberts at Friday, 3 July 2015 at 4:12am BST

I am just a far away ancient Australian Episcopalian - priest in a Church that is in communion with Canterbury and the US Episcopal. I am conservative culturally (e.g. with regard to the use of traditional BCP liturgy or our constitutional monarchy or classical education) but otherwise am a broad, theologically and Biblically liberal churchman, not homophobic, and not opposed to legal, civil partnerships. Nonetheless, I certainly agree with these bishops (and with the minority reports of the US judges)and I hope the bishops' words and wisdom will be pondered.

Posted by John Bunyan at Friday, 3 July 2015 at 4:59am BST

That's what I call a score.

Posted by Father David at Friday, 3 July 2015 at 6:03am BST

Usual suspects. I really despise living in Reactionary Hate Land.

Posted by Mark Brunson at Friday, 3 July 2015 at 6:25am BST

JohnB, I'm sorry, but you cannot block the altar to Christian couples who wish to ***MARRY***, and at the same time say you are "not homophobic". It's 2015, and you have to choose one or the other. Let your yes be "Yes" or your no be "No".

Posted by JCF at Friday, 3 July 2015 at 8:04am BST

What does this mean in practice? Can these bishops stop church marriages in their dioceses?

Posted by Erika Baker at Friday, 3 July 2015 at 9:26am BST

So, JCF, what do you say to my Christian gay friends, indeed couples in civil partnerships, who remain implacably opposed to redefining Christian marriage and are happy to celebrate difference??? By your definition at 8.04am

"JohnB, I'm sorry, but you cannot block the altar to Christian couples who wish to ***MARRY***, and at the same time say you are "not homophobic". It's 2015, and you have to choose one or the other."

you seem to be defining them as homophobic and therefore self-loathing.

Posted by John F. at Friday, 3 July 2015 at 11:32am BST

The term 'Communion Partners' as used by the dissenting bishop, by the content of their statement, can surely only refer to their alliance wih the GAFCON Bishops and not to the rest of the Anglican Communion provinces.

Posted by Father Ron Smith at Friday, 3 July 2015 at 1:27pm BST

Here is the tally of Bishops' Roll Call vote on A036 http://www.scribd.com/doc/270218754/A036-Vote-Tally-Revision-3

Posted by Ann at Friday, 3 July 2015 at 2:52pm BST

"Homophobic" means "fearful of homosexuals" so it is nonsense to say that one must be either that or a supporter of "gay marriage". If I am the only one who expresses a dissenting voice on this site, nonetheless I am in line with the largest and most active member Churches of the Anglican Communion and with the vast majority of the world's Christians, let alone orthodox Jews, and Muslims. But one correction to what I posted : the Anglican Church of Australia is formally in communion with the Church of England but I think that its Constitution makes no reference to the Anglican Communion nor to other Anglican Churches. In practice, my very large Diocese of Sydney (whose overwhelmingly Conservative Evangelical position I myself do not share) recognises "the Anglican Church in North America" rather than the Episcopal Church. And there is no possibility of the Church of Australia ever approving the action of the US General Convention. One can only be saddened by the schisms among American Episcopalians not least in South Carolina and Charleston (which I have visited more than once), suffering from the recent tragic killings.

Posted by John Bunyan at Friday, 3 July 2015 at 4:50pm BST

"you seem to be defining them as homophobic and therefore self-loathing"

Yes.

It's one thing not to want something for yourself, it's quite another to insist that people who desperately want it should be prevented from having it.

Posted by Erika Baker at Friday, 3 July 2015 at 5:22pm BST

"So, JCF, what do you say to my Christian gay friends, indeed couples in civil partnerships, who remain implacably opposed to redefining Christian marriage and are happy to celebrate difference???" John F

I think the expression you might be looking for is 'dog in a manger'.

Posted by Laurence Cunnington at Friday, 3 July 2015 at 6:33pm BST

@JohnF ooh a gotcha! that'll teach us LGBTs who the *real* bigots are!

Posted by Amanda Clark at Friday, 3 July 2015 at 6:44pm BST

I don't know what JCF would say, but I'd say:
No one is going to force you to get married. Why should you try to force others not to?

Posted by Jo at Friday, 3 July 2015 at 9:13pm BST

Oh and John Bunyan, "homophobia" means more than just fear of us. The term was coined by George Weinberg in the 1960s, and he said that he most definitely meant it to include predjudice based attempts to restrict civil rights. Which would include not recognizing our rights to equal marriage. It is a fifty year old word that is based on Greek root words, not an Ancient Greek or Koine Greek word. Arguing about such a well defined and well understood word, coined to describe those who oppose equal rights, based only on the root word meanings is rather silly.

Posted by Dennis Roberts at Saturday, 4 July 2015 at 2:15am BST

John Bunyan, it might behoove you to look at the vast numbers of bishops and deputies who voted FOR inclusive, sacramental marriage and take a more humble view. This "minority report" from the 20 dissenters, many of them retired, is hardly a work of brilliant theological insight.

Is it homophobic to oppose inclusion? If you really unpack it and see how unhealthful the anti-gay rhetoric is, it's hard to escape. LGBTQ teen suicide, hate crimes, discrimination and depression... The "minority report" writers, and their supporters, seem quite callous to the suffering LGBTQ people.

So I'll add barbaric attitudes towards gay people as another reason to skip Australia.

Posted by Cynthia at Saturday, 4 July 2015 at 3:56am BST

Someone counted up the active bishops within the US, there are only 9.

Posted by Cynthia at Saturday, 4 July 2015 at 9:57pm BST

Having just seen the photos of the first same sex marriage posted by the Danish Church in London on Facebook( one of those married was the son of a Lutheran minister) it would seem our communion partners in the Porvoo Communion seem less riven by this issue than us.

Posted by Perry Butler at Monday, 6 July 2015 at 8:11am BST

Just for accuracy's sake: GAFCON understands itself as the sponsor of ACNA.

The Communion Partners Bishops are not in ACNA.

Posted by cseitz at Monday, 6 July 2015 at 4:21pm BST

No, cseitz, but perhaps that's where their orchestrated opposition to their own Church, TEC, should logically place them! Would it not be more logical of them to support ACNA by actually joining them. Just asking.

Posted by Father Ron Smith at Monday, 6 July 2015 at 10:07pm BST

Accuracy still matters.

The Global South and the Communion Partners are the more obvious pairing.

Gafcon distinguishes itself from the Global South as a whole.

You keep associating all conservatives in TEC with Gafcon. This makes no sense. If they are in TEC, they have chosen not to be in ACNA and are defending what they understand as the faith and practice of TEC as set forth in the BCP and Constitution.

ACNA has its own c/c and prayer book, as I understand it.

Posted by cseitz at Tuesday, 7 July 2015 at 3:43pm BST

re the last comment of cseitz; the 'Communion Partners' may very well be defending what they understand to have been the former stance of TEC on matters of human gender and sexuality BUT the prophetic call to liberate TEC from traditional sexism and homophobia has now been accepted by the rank and file of TEC marking that Church out as a beacon for the liberation of its adherents from perceived endemic prejudice and injustice. Deo gratias!

Posted by Father Ron Smith at Tuesday, 7 July 2015 at 11:25pm BST
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