Comments: opinion

Moreton's fallen for Welby's pernicious "equality gets Africans murdered" apologetic. Shows the archbishop's cunning, I guess.

As for forgiveness, without the wrongdoer's repentance and atonement, it can so easily become cheap grace, that allows abusers to continue unhindered. We shouldn't forgive anyone discriminating against LGBT people until they stop, and we shouldn't forgive on other people's behalf.

Posted by James Byron at Saturday, 11 July 2015 at 6:27pm BST

Here's what I wrote in response to David Runcorn's article:

This is a fabulous article! I am so grateful to you. My gratitude isn't exclusively that of an LGBT person in the church, but also because I've never really "gotten" the evangelical philosophy. To me it looked liked a strong emphasis on personal sin and relationship with God - which is fine - but then vigorously imposing those findings on others - which is not fine at all. This article gives me a better understanding that will help me engage in discussions with evangelicals, who were an "other" to me. That is some achievement. Thank you!

Posted by Cynthia at Saturday, 11 July 2015 at 6:39pm BST

Graham Tomlin makes a number of strong recommendations in favour of the 'priesthood'. My understanding of strong leadership is being humble enough to accept responsibility, of being sensitive enough to realise a group can only thrive when individual talents are nurtured, and of being strong enough to show vulnerability. This is quite a task. The connection made between parishioner and priest/minister depends greatly on trust being established. Trust can overcome theological differences and differences in temperament. It can be a slow, tedious process to build trust and ego must move out of the way.

Posted by Pam at Saturday, 11 July 2015 at 11:20pm BST

Well said by Giles Fraser. His basic premise about Sunday and worshiping money is right on. Great to know that voices in the church are concerned about issues of economic justice, and not just obsessing over in house hocus pocus. The New York Times has coverage of The Pope's speech given in Paraguay:®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

Posted by Rod Gillis at Sunday, 12 July 2015 at 12:18am BST

Sally H. (Independent) is a star. It is so, so good that the C of E, despite everything, continues to be inhabited by people of real quality. Yesterday's Miners' Gala in Durham had an LGBT contingent. Wouldn't have happened even a decade ago. How times have changed. How much better it is. Not far to go now. I realise that's easy for me to say, but it's true.

Posted by John at Sunday, 12 July 2015 at 5:33am BST

John, times have changed, and things are in many places better but, speaking from a trans perspective, there is still widespread prejudice and discrimination, and violence and abuse are still unpredictably waiting down the next but one street, and alcohol and idiots make LGBT extremely vulnerable, and in some areas, make it difficult for some trans people (for example) to even go out safely.

I do realise that this is not just a trans issue, and indeed not just an LGBT issue, as women of all kinds face unwanted harassment and abuse in a variety of situations.

My own life is largely free of violence (but not of verbal abuse) largely because I am lucky with my facial appearance. I identify more with the L than the T in my day to day life. However, I know too many trans people who face worse, and in my view the Church of England is doing nowhere near enough to endorse and support LGBT members and the LGBT public generally.

I can't really agree that there is "not far to go now". Look at all the diocesan websites. In most we are virtually invisible. Sort of airbrushed out, so as not to cause offence.

Posted by Susannah Clark at Sunday, 12 July 2015 at 9:48am BST

Dear Susannah,

Thank you for this. I tremendously like your poetic meditations. You write beautifully. There is no 'but' coming up. I try to encourage and help morale. There are many churches far superior in this regard (and in every other relevant regard) to our leaders (I go to one). The climate of public opinion is certainly growing more accepting. You fight. Your friends fight with you.


Posted by John at Sunday, 12 July 2015 at 3:29pm BST

Dear John, Thank you for your generosity and grace. Susannah

Posted by Susannah Clark at Sunday, 12 July 2015 at 10:13pm BST

Could I flag up David Walker's excellent article in the Guardian on Saturday, entitled 'For too many families work is no longer an escape route from poverty'.

Really worth reading.

Posted by Susannah Clark at Tuesday, 14 July 2015 at 5:02pm BST
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