Thinking Anglicans

civil partnerships: earlier CEN analysis

Back in August, an analysis of the bishops’ Pastoral Statement, written by Andrew Goddard, was published in the Church of England Newspaper but not on their website: The Civil Partnership Act and the Church of England. This escaped my attention at the time.

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Göran Koch-Swahne
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The Swedish Riksdag instituted Registered Partnerships in 1993, in force from 1994. In 1997 the Bishop’s Conference affirmed these, each Bishop issuing slightly different guide-lines for Blessings in her or his diocese. Last Thursday the Synod made changes to the Swedish Canons, making these Blessings of Partnerships official adding 2 statements saying amongst other things, that the Church must not meddle in activities purported to “cure” gays and lesbians, and that being homosexual or having registered a Partnership shall be no hindrance to ordination or employment in the Church of Sweden. Today the Congress of the Social Democratic party approved… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

Forgott: This means there is now a majority in Parlament, the PM Mr Persson having blocked the issue for several years.

Merseymike
Guest
Merseymike

Excellent news.

Mark Beaton
Guest
Mark Beaton

Congratulations, Goran. The spirit of Erastes is alive and well in Sweden. I look forward to the Swedish Parliament repealing the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed.
(The ghost of Kierkegaard looks on from across the water.)
Mark

Leonardo Ricardo
Guest
Leonardo Ricardo

Bravo!

Thank you for more GOOD NEWS!

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

Oh no, they won’t. Nor will Synod.
Only in your imagination.

J. C. Fisher
Guest

Um, I imagine Kierkegaard is cheering on this blessed development — along w/ the rest of the saints (the Eternal Party kicks into even *higher* gear! :-D). Yay Sweden!

[Mark, your sarcasm — raining on our parade, to mix metaphors — is exceptionally unappealing here. 🙁 To share the blessings of marriage among all loving couples is completely *in accord with* the faith of the the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed! :-)]

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

To say a few words about Mr Goddard’s article, it is clear and well written. One of the best I’ve seen from the anti-modern side.

Funny the ChofE Newspaper did not publish it on line.

Mark Beaton
Guest
Mark Beaton

Actually, Judith, I had a serious point, which is that Swedish Lutheranism has become so Erastian that it appears to be little other than an arm of government policy. This has been going on for many years, even though it’s now disestablished. (‘Kulturprotestantismus’, I believe, is the term.) Yet there is also a schism in the Church of Sweden. The intervention of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Kenya (along with Norwegian and South African bishops) parallels ‘in parvo’ what has happened to Ecusa, and we will see African and Indonesian Lutherans moving apart from Sweden (or vice versa). Kierkegaard in… Read more »

Mark Beaton
Guest
Mark Beaton

Further to my last post, here is background information from Pr Yngve Kalin about the decision of the Swedish Church. It’s amazing to people from an Anglo-American background to discover how much this is a (party) politically controlled and constituted organization. That’s what I meant by Erastian. I understand the Church of England has soem links with the Swedish Church through the Porvoo (?) agreement.
http://kalin.nu/english/resist.htm

Simon Sarmiento
Guest

The Anglican churches of the UK and Ireland, not merely the Church of England, are in full communion with the Church of Sweden, and all the other churches of the Porvoo Communion, see
http://www.porvoochurches.org/

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

Mark Beaton I don’t know where you get your Norwegian and South African bishops from, but I would be somewhat wary of Mr Kalin’s depiction of the Church of Sweden if I were you… These accusations of “catering to the polititians” are little more than a post 1920 anti-general suffrage wet dream about the bad old days of Carolinian Absolutism… The Calvinist King in 1687 merged the Church with the State organization ;=) In reality the Church of Sweden has never been a hierarchic organization of the Roman kind. We never had mandatory celibacy, nor the “canonic” testament. We modified… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

Surely Mr Beaton knows that Mr Kirkegaard was gay?

Martin Reynolds
Guest

Our links with the Porvoo churches are indeed strong as was made clear in the gathering of our bishops at Trondheim last month. My view is that these relationships with churches that welcome LGBT people and provide for their welfare and spiritual support as well as blessing their unions will be on the Global South public agenda soon. It seems to me a logical step for the GS policy makers to begin flagging up these relationships of full communion in their determination to isolate Rowan and other UK churches. I foresee this issue may become central with the GS demanding… Read more »

Mark Beaton
Guest
Mark Beaton

Martin R, one of the differences from Anglicanism at the ecclesiological levels is that there are different Lutheran Fellowships in the world, such as ELCA and LCMS. The ‘Global South’ Lutherans of Africa (esp. Ethiopia and Tanzania) and Indonesia (Batak Church) are allied much more with LCMS and the Norwegian Church.

Mark Beaton
Guest
Mark Beaton

Goran, why of course – that explains why he was obsessed with Regine Olsen all his life! 🙂 I do understand that it is very difficult for the catholic, confessional and evangelical elements in Sweden, but they are coming together, organizing and praying. I gather the Church of Sweden is considering ‘open communion’, i.e. for the unbaptized. I can’t imagine the Church of England being too happy about that, although it is becoming widespread in Ecusa. Anyway, I do hope the new Mission Province will be reaching out with the Gospel to the 97% of Swedes who never attend church… Read more »

Augustus Meriwether
Guest

I’ve been wondering, since hearing of this good news, why Abp Akinola had not done his usual fit of indignant righteousness over it. I’d assumed in my ignorance that the Church of Sweden was part of the Anglican Communion. So, I checked the AC site and couldn’t see it – I thought, ‘aah, that’s why’. But I’d forgotten about Porvoo. So, have I got this straight? The Church of England and of Ireland are in full communion with the Church of Sweden via the Porvoo thingy, which means really they are as one (thank God). And, at the moment, the… Read more »

Augustus Meriwether
Guest

oops, which may be pretty much what Martin R just said, sorry – it’s late here.

Dave
Guest
Dave

I understand that the “Old Catholics” (also in full communion) are debating gay blessings in at least one of their synods soon too. In the meantime the Roman Catholic Abp in Sweden said that the decision won’t end dialogue, just widen the gap between denominations. (impaired communion anyone ?) This is all hardly surprising of course. As society moves away from biblical/traditional objective morality onto new assumptions and behaviours based on humanism / relativism / individualism, tensions in the church are inevitable between those parts that seek to serve God and people based on their (current) socio-cultural perceptions, and those… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

On October 27th, the Roman Catholic Bishop of Stockholm expressley said: – Vi kommer inte att avbryta den ekumeniska dialogen med Svenska kyrkan trots att kyrkomötet i dag beslutat om en välsignelseakt för homosexuella par som ingått registrerat partnerskap.

Which means: We will not be breaking our Ecumenic dialogue with the Church of Sweden, in spite of the fact that the Kyrkomötet (Synod) today decided on an Act of Blessing for homosexual couples who have registered their Partnership.

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

Mark Beaton, in the Church of Sweden Communion is indeed open to all baptised in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, regardless of church or denominaton.

Martin Reynolds
Guest

In fact there are already authorised liturgies for same sex blessings within the Old Catholic group of dioceses.

Mark Beaton
Guest
Mark Beaton

Goran, what I actually wrote was:
‘I gather the Church of Sweden is considering ‘open communion’, i.e. for the UNbaptized.’
This was reported by Pr Goran Beijer. This surprised me a little, because I thought EVERYONE in Sweden was baptized, on the first of the two occasions in their life when they go to church. ;=)
Mark (native English speaker and admirer of the early Ingrid Bergman)

Peter
Guest
Peter

Regarding the Church of Sweden, you all ought to know that the Bishops have no voting rights in the so called Synod (but that has the secular political parties, incl neo-fascists). What a mockery of the Apostolic, Catholic (and Episcopal) Church!!

Peter
Guest
Peter

It looks like Goran “forgot” to tell you a few things, regarding what the Roman Catholic Bishop of Stockholm said: “-Men vi beklagar djupt att Svenska kyrkan inför en speciell välsignelseakt för homosexuella par. Beskedet är ett avsteg från den traditionella kristna synen på att det sexuella samlivet enbart hör hemma i ett äktenskap mellan en man och en kvinna, det heliga förbund som Gud själv instiftat. Beslutet kommer inte att leda till att vi avbryter den ekumeniska dialogen med Svenska kyrkan. Tyvärr kommer detta beslut att försvåra en framtida dialog och vidgar klyftan mellan oss.” Translated this means: -We… Read more »

Gerard Hannon
Guest
Gerard Hannon

I continue to be amazed by those posters who keep speaking as if the Church Universal has not changed its interpretations or understanding of Scripture from the time of Christ. The plain truth is that the Church, even the Church of Rome, and certainly the Church of England and the Anglican Communion, have changed many beliefs that were formerly held to be “the truth.” We learn, and we grow, and sometimes we even admit that our former beliefs were not really correct. Otherwise, I would like hear some of these “evangelical” voices, or fundamentalist voices (whichever you prefer), tell me… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

Mark Beaton,

I know what you said. I stated the truth.

Mark Beaton
Guest
Mark Beaton

Goran, you know what I said but you did NOT answer my specific question, viz., ‘Is the Synod of the Church of Sweden considering offering the sacrament of communion to people who have NOT been baptized in the name of the Trinity?’ A supplementary question would be whether you, as an active Swedish Lutheran and internet pundit, approve of such a proposal. I’m sure you can see how all these questions (about sexual ethics, sacraments, church order, Erastianism and the natue of the catholic Church) are interrelated. You have a lively style, Goran, but you never seem to engage (‘dialog’)… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

Dear Peter,

We all (?) know what the Roman position on marriage is.

The n e w s was that Bishop Anders said he would not be breaking dialogue.

Merseymike
Guest
Merseymike

I agree, Gerard.

Which casts the doubt on the notion of eternally revealed, unchanging religious truth as a concept.

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

Mr Beaton

I know how your questions are interrelated.

The Church of Sweden is NOT contemplating Communion to those not baptised.

Don’t patronize me!

Mark Beaton
Guest
Mark Beaton

Gerard asks: ‘Please enlighten us, so that we can determine what changes may be acceptable to you, and should therefore be acceptable to the rest of the Anglican Communion, and what changes – after that immutable milestone – must be purged from our beliefs.’ The Global South communique has largely answered your question with reference to the normative status of the BCP 1662 and the 39 Articles (rather than being just historical documents, as the 1979 Ecusa book treats them). As for the Creeds defining trinitarian and christological belief, the Anglican Communion claims no power to amend these of itself… Read more »

Peter
Guest
Peter

Dear Mark, you are very right and Goran is “huffing and puffing” about his own denomination. I know for sure that two out of the three Theological Collages (or “Pastoral Collages”) in the Church of Sweden hold the view that non baptised should be welcomed to recieve Holy Communion (the one that doesn’t is the “liberal evangelical” one, the other are extreme revisionists).The outcome of that training is to be seen all over the place, and it will soon be in the Coanon procedures (like the gay agenda). Goran has for long trying to portray CofS as something much more… Read more »

Merseymike
Guest
Merseymike

No thanks, Mark – many of us Anglicans just aren’t evangelicals and have no intention of becoming so. As for the so-called Global South, I look forward to their departure – the sooner, the better.

Gerard Hannon
Guest
Gerard Hannon

Mark, thanks for your response. I would like to refrain from interpreting your remarks, but your posting doesn’t really answer the questions I posed earlier on Nov 2nd. Therefore, the only possible interpretation that I could make is that you consider either 1662 (“the normative status of the BCP 1662”), or 1801 (“the 39 Articles”), as the definitive date for determining the validity of interpretations of Scripture that differ from the very earliest days of the Church Universal. Would you please clarify which of the two dates would be a correct statement for your own date of defining an unchangeable… Read more »

Perry Butler
Guest
Perry Butler

For the present status of the BCP,Articles etc in the Church of England, Mark Beaton should read the Declaration of Assent made publically by every ordained minister at every significant stage of his ministry–where Articles,BCP etc are neither “normative” nor “just historical”.(tho’ both terms surely beg questions).Modern Anglicanism’s doctrinal position in practice also owes a lot also to its current authorised liturgical texts and what has been achieved in ecumenical dialogue where this has been accepted (synodically)as consonant with Anglican teaching.(e.g. much of this is quoted after all in semi-official documents e.g. the House of Bishops statement on Lay Presidency… Read more »

Mark Beaton
Guest
Mark Beaton

Thank you, Peter. As I said, my information came from Pr Goran Beijer. He didn’t think the proposal for communion for the unbaptized would pass at this point, but the fact that they’re considering it shows how far they are willing to depart from catholic order and discipline. I agree that it’s only a matter of time, as the doctrine of eucharist as ‘open hospitality to everyone’ takes root. In fact, this has already happened in some parishes in Ecusa. I am sure that everything that happens in the CoS is open and in accordance with local democratic politics. Which… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

Peter wrote: “I know for sure that two out of the three Theological Collages (or “Pastoral Collages”) in the Church of Sweden hold the view that non baptised should be welcomed to receive Holy Communion (the one that doesn’t is the “liberal evangelical” one, the other are extreme revisionists)”. There are only 2 Seminars in Sweden, consequently your characterizations are false. Slander. Nor do any of the 2 existing teach “that non baptised should be welcomed to receive Holy Communion”. Where do you get your things? And why do you not discuss this extreme Calvinist agenda in the context of… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

Dear Mr Beaton wrote: “my information came from Pr Goran Beijer. He didn’t think the pro-posal for communion for the unbaptized would pass at this point, but the fact that they’re considering it shows how far they are willing to depart from catholic order and discipline. I agree that it’s only a matter of time”. Now facts: there was indeed such a ”Motion” – not a Proposal – at this Synod. It was killed in committee early October. So no, “they” are not considering it. “They” killed it in committee ,=) Where do you get your things? Added in translation?… Read more »

Mark Beaton
Guest
Mark Beaton

Gerard H asks: ‘Would you please clarify which of the two dates would be a correct statement for your own date of defining an unchangeable understanding of Scripture, and beliefs?’ Only time for a brief answer here, Gerard. As fas as Scripture is concerned, the words of Scripture mean what they meant at the time they were written. In US Constitution terms, this is called being an ‘originalist’ or ‘textualist’. In linguistics it’s called synchronic meaning. As for the three ‘Catholic Creeds’, I can’t see Anglicans going ‘outside’ these if they want to remain in ecumenical dialog. The terms ‘trinity’… Read more »

Perry butler
Guest
Perry butler

Giving holy communion to the unbaptised (at least in some circumstances) was, I’m sure, argued for by Geoffrey Wainwright in his “Eucharist and Eschatology” over 20yrs ago. Wainwright is scarcely a theological radical…Im not convinced myself…but its not just a product of “local democratic politics”

Gerard Hannon
Guest
Gerard Hannon

Mark Beaton wrote: “I agree that it’s only a matter of time, as the doctrine of eucharist as ‘open hospitality to everyone’ takes root. In fact, this has already happened in some parishes in Ecusa.” Such an irresponsible statement, regarding “Some parishes in” ECUSA, has no more validity than if I were to refer to “some crypto-fascist wife beaters” in the Church of Nigeria. Sure, there are some wife-beaters in the Churches of both the USA and Nigeria, and maybe even in England, but it dishonors the quality of honest dialogue when these kinds of remarks are continually used in… Read more »

Peter
Guest
Peter

Goran, You must have missed a few classes at your seminar! And as to being “Catholic” you just will have to look at the episcopacy in CofS (both the present situation with “lame ducks” and from the time of the Reformation) to understand that you are way out of line in your claim. Also, your view of the Roman Catholic period in Sweden will hardly give you a Ph.D. in the Universities in Uppsala or Lund. But please dream on if that is what you need to do to support the Swedish nomenclatura in their efforts to tranform Church of… Read more »

Peter
Guest
Peter

I forgot:
“a disaffected minority, which has spent the last 60 years in interior exile”

Many would call an interior exile a Gulag, when it has been forced upon you by the combined powers of Erastianism and heretical teachings.

At least that is what the orthodox minority in CofS finds themselves in, which is a view shared by many more than themselves. Goran excluded.

Gerard Hannon
Guest
Gerard Hannon

For Meryseymike, thanks for your affirmation regarding my thought process about the reality of a changing understanding of Scripture over 2000 years in the Church. As to your phrase “Which casts the doubt on the notion of eternally revealed, unchanging religious truth as a concept,” I think that I would instead rephrase that to insert the words “which may be understood differently over time” after the word “truth.” However, I don’t want to get too pharisaical about this, as so many posters seem more hung up on parsing phrases, than upon being focused upon the basic message of Christ. God… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

Peter wrote: “You must have missed a few classes at your seminar!” I most certainly did. Especially the 3rd ;=) Peter wrote: “And as to being “Catholic” you just will have to look at the episcopacy in CofS (both the present situation with “lame ducks” and from the time of the Reformation) to understand that you are way out of line in your claim.” I was talking of the Church, not of the Calvinist Superintendents appointed by the Absolutist Carolinian Kings. Despite adversity, the Church – I repeat – the Church, remained Catholic and 1st Millennium. Peter wrote: “Also, your… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

There is now a (Swedish Priests only) Statement against the Blessings of Registered Partnerships recently approved by the Synod of the Church of Sweden:

http://www.kalin.nu/deklaration

Peter
Guest
Peter

Dear Me! Goran is the “catholic” revisionist claiming his authority from “grand” ancestors (wonder what they think about his mission?)

Dave
Guest
Dave

Göran said: “There is now a (Swedish Priests only) Statement against the Blessings of Registered Partnerships”

Dear Göran, a translation would be much appreciated !

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

Priestly Declaration brought about by the decision of the Church of Sweden to Bless Registered Partnerships To: The Parishes of the Church of Sweden and their decision-makers. The Church of Sweden has decided upon an Official Rite for the Blessing of Registered Partnerships and introduced this in the Church Order (The Canons of 2000). We, Priests in this Church, who have signed this Declaration believe this Decision to be at odds with the Command for Communal life and Marriage, that God through His Word has revealed for us, and that is defined as a Relation between one man and one… Read more »