Good – hope a thorough investigation is undertaken and if the report is positive those who doubt the integrity of the Principal and the Council will belt up.
If the report is not positive, then appropriate action should be taken by the Council.
TJH
16 years ago
I hope the inspection really does what is needed to be done. If the Church of England does not do something – the University of Oxford will. We cannot let theology in Oxford suffer because of the leadership style of a particular college.
badman
16 years ago
At General Synod in July, the Bishop of Derby said, in answer to a written question: “The Bishop of Norwich, the Chair of Ministry Division has been in regular contact with the Bishop of Liverpool, the Chair of the Wycliffe Council. Further, the Bishops’ Committee for Ministry has set in place a process to inform itself regarding the situation at Wycliffe. A small team of independent advisors, drawn from current Senior Inspectors, will report to the Bishops’ Committee for Ministry, which can then take any further action, if required.” See http://www.thinkinganglicans.org.uk/archives/002497.html So, what did the advisors advise and what further… Read more »
Martin Reynolds
16 years ago
“David Way is a staff member at the Ministry Division. All Colleges have a Min Div person on their governing body. I understand he does not attend many Council meetings – but if that is incorrect, someone can easily correct it.” I have been trying to find out an answer to this question posed by “f” in a thread below. I have now heard from Church House and it seems that Dr Way has not been a member of the Wycliffe Council for “six or seven years” and that “we will be asking AGAIN for them to remove him from… Read more »
Matthew B
16 years ago
Just to avoid confusion: the Ministry Division inspection is unrelated to the University’s own inspection: the Bishop’s concern is the quality of the formation of ordinands, whereas the University’s concern is principally about what kind of education the undergraduates are receiving at the PPH’s. I’ve spoken about this with a number of dons who have grave conerns, but are adamant that the University will only act in respect of the latter, not the former. It is good that Vibert is communicating, even if indirectly through the press. But he clearly has his head in the sand: this isn’t about wanting… Read more »
When they do the review, it would do well to remember that some souls will only put forward their best examples. Some build a facade down the main street and keep the journalists away from the filthy alleys behind it. Others hang around to ensure they only talk to scripted representatives. Remember, collecting winners of lottery ticket always thinks the lottery is a good thing. It doesn’t hurt to ask the people who didn’t win what they think too. The same as when we are looking at justice in this world, it’s not enough to ask the “winners” if the… Read more »
I think the people posting here (except NP) are missing the point. It may well be that Principal Turnbull and Bishop James Jones are poor managers. They may well have got rid of some people that seem to have been well liked and maybe they did cut a few corners along the way. But let’s get a sense of perspective here. They have restored the Biblical idea of the subordination of women to men to Wycliffe Hall. They have reversed the liberal trends of the previous regimes which actually encouraged women to think of ordination. That’s what REALLY matters. Biblical… Read more »
Things have moved so much that you would think the posting by Will Prynne was an exercise in irony. Then follow the link and the irony goes very dry. And we might think NP was bad enough with his surface rigidity. If Will Prynne is taken at all seriously by anyone, then matters must be in a serious state. Surely even the cackhanded and theologically inspired management at Wycliffe Hall can’t agree with this stuff. Or am I being duped: is the website http://www.fows.org/ the sort of spoof I could use some spare time creating for which some humour could… Read more »
Merseymike
16 years ago
Interesting, as Bishop James Jones certainly does support women’s ordination and actively ordains women in Liverpool diocese.
Has he changed his mind? Perhaps someone should contact him and ask him to clarify. The Liverpool Echo would certainly be interested if he has altered his stance!
Sarah
16 years ago
I still can’t figure out if this guy’s for real – he posted on Fulcrum as ‘IloveMLJ’ (MLJ, apparently, is Martyn Lloyd Jones: a hugely popular evangelical firebrand of the mid-c20th) and we were all convinced he must be a hoax. Looks like NP thought so too. If he is genuine then William Prynne, the c17th Puritan pamphleteer, seems like a suitable pseudonym. This was the man who couldn’t stop harrassing women: he had his ears cut off after his denunciation of stage actresses in 1633; was wont to collect the stories of debauched nuns; and in 1660 supported the… Read more »
Martin Reynolds
16 years ago
I have had enough. I propose to Simon that Will Prynne be invited to fill the roll of resident troll. He is so much more authentic – the real thing – rather than the whimpering and whining we have come to associate with NP, who since he abandoned posting under his own name has also abandoned much grace, decency and manners – if that’s the sort of “advantage” you purchase by anonymity then it’s obviously not worth having. Besides everything else this NP persona has become repetitive, boring and predictable – it’s time he had his cards! Will Prynne looks… Read more »
I seriously doubt that http://www.fows.org/ is in any sense a spoof, but I do rather doubt that the commenter here who on this occasion used the name Will Prynne, but has posted here previously using other names, has any connection at all with the owners of that site.
Thank you Sarah for reminding us who Prynne was.
Lapinbizarre - Roger Mortimer
16 years ago
” …… since he abandoned posting under his own name.” You have my attention, Martin, and I suspect the attention of a few others.
philbody
16 years ago
I felt the reply you published from the Bishop of Derby was actually quite disturbing. If the Bishop of Norwich has been ‘in close contact’ with the Bishop of Liverpool, has he also been ‘in close contact’ with the people who have been trying to get through to the Bishop of Liverpool – Revd David Wenham, Eva Johns, Clare MacInnes to name a few? Has he been ‘in close contact’ with Elaine Storkey and Andrew and Lis Goddard? And if he hasn’t, has he just got their story and the story of what has been going at Wycliffe from the… Read more »
It is a shame to see that Biblical truth is now dismissed as ‘trolling’. I have heard that this is a website for liberal Churchmen, but I wasn’t expecting to find the Bible mocked. As NP says quite rightly on another thread ‘we cannot deviate from scripture to suit a few people – we trust the Writer of scripture first.’ We are living in times when we must look to the Godly remnant in the Church who are holding fast to the perfect Word of God. Principal Turnbull and Vice-Principal Vibert are finally turning back the tide of encroaching liberalism… Read more »
poppy tupper
16 years ago
let’s not just laugh or get angry at will prynne. he has done us a service by directing us to the site http://www.fows.org/ it’s well worth having a look there. one of the first things you’ll notice is this : FWS Chairman Simon Vibert has been appointed vice-principal at Wycliffe Hall Theological College, Oxford. then read on and see what is says about women, and pastoral strategy and redemption theology. there is no doubt that the appointment of vibert to WH is the clearest possible indication, coupled with the turnbull speech to reform, that WH is now chosen as the… Read more »
Ah, the “masses” who are in revolt of the liberals.
Now it is starting to look like Home Alone or Bedknobs and Broomsticks where they have to prop up cutouts and fake soldiers to pretend they are a greater multitude than they really are. Or is it a Sybil thing where one or another personality is in ascendance on any one day?
The gap between Korach camp members and others grows wider again. Don’t you just love God’s patience?
I’m getting fed up too. I’m asking myself what am I doing even associating myself with opinions that can be of the sort that this so called Will Prynne can justify. I think I want a punch up. Look Will Prynne, NP and all the like, the New Testament of the Bible is an example of an authentic religious moment that indicates something of ethical value in a situation. Its particularity is just one example of many throughout the world, in religions and in what people just do. If you find that dismissive of the Bible, then tough – some… Read more »
NP
16 years ago
Martin says “Besides everything else this NP persona has become repetitive, boring and predictable…”
And you are not, Martin?
If we are to listen and debate, we will be repeating our beliefs many times- will we not?
Do you prefer no opposition to liberal views on TA?
I’ve started to have dicussions that don’t address each and every point raised by certain parties.
Otherwise, it is like with terrorist bombers, if you make peaceful dialogue dependent on the last bomb exploded, all they have to do is one more to stop peaceful discussions happening.
Please keep engaging with the positive souls, and don’t allow the negative ones to control the agenda. You can not win with them because they are a closed book, but I love your postings and humour and want to see that continue. 🙂
Erika Baker
16 years ago
Pluralist “We could be having a set of conversations relating to a range of views that are approximately liberal – liberal evangelical, liberal Catholic, plain liberal, radical, mixtures, don’t knows – supporting people who are gay and supporting women (for goodness sake) where a Church community is a microcosm of building a just society.” I don’t think this is possible in principle, on a news driven forum like TA. As long as the news is gay dominated, our conversation here will continue like a ping pong ball, never straying far from the core of the disagreement. But it’s a wonderful… Read more »
I’ve loved watching your postings over the last week or so. Welcome Back. Pluralist does some great graphics and has his own website (click on his name).
That said, there are times where it is confusing as to what is the best way forward.
I appreciate both of you and pray that you both find media that suit the gifts and talents God has bestowed on both of you, even if they are different from each other. 🙂
Erika Baker
16 years ago
Thanks, Cheryl, for your kind words.
And thanks for the tip about Pluralist’s blog. It’s ages since I’ve been to his site and it’s changed quite a bit since. Brilliant!
Matthew B
16 years ago
Pluralist asks: “Surely even the cackhanded and theologically inspired management at Wycliffe Hall can’t agree with this stuff?” I’m afraid it appears much of the management does. As Poppy points out, a glance over the FOWS website tells us proudly that their Chairman Simon Vibert has just been appointed Vice Principal of Wycliffe Hall. Will Prynne seems to offer some evidence for the kind of views that Vibert supports. Furthermore, the Latimer Trust, an organisation that operates as very nearly a woman free zone, is now sponsoring studentships and Research Fellows at Wycliffe, with the proviso that award winners must… Read more »
Matthew B You quoted “Within the church there is a divinely appointed order in which headship roles are given to the male. Not for the purpose of domination over the female, but in order to protect and nourish the body of Christ.” I wonder how much of that was to do with legal implications. Namely that women (particularly married) had no legal entity until mid/late last century, so if a woman was “in charge” there was no one with legal stature to protect the institution. From that framework, male authority came not from their competence, but expediency to ensure the… Read more »
Ford Elms
16 years ago
Matthew B,
Interesting quotes. I would argue the sacerdotal nature of the priesthood is as much a part of the Divinely appointed order, ewven far moreso, than any sense of men being the boss. The second and third atatements you cite are not in anyway Anglican. Fine if they don’t claim to be Anglican.
Matthew B
16 years ago
Cheryl: I wonder how much of that was to do with legal implications? ‘Namely that women (particularly married) had no legal entity until mid/late last century, so if a woman was “in charge” there was no one with legal stature to protect the institution. This is an interesting question. In the pre 19th century context even having legal status meant little if the Crown wished to dissolve the estate (see Thomas Cromwell). But through the structure of freeholds and glebe land that developed in England, each parish did operate financially as an autonomous unit. Changes to this structure would have… Read more »
Good – hope a thorough investigation is undertaken and if the report is positive those who doubt the integrity of the Principal and the Council will belt up.
If the report is not positive, then appropriate action should be taken by the Council.
I hope the inspection really does what is needed to be done. If the Church of England does not do something – the University of Oxford will. We cannot let theology in Oxford suffer because of the leadership style of a particular college.
At General Synod in July, the Bishop of Derby said, in answer to a written question: “The Bishop of Norwich, the Chair of Ministry Division has been in regular contact with the Bishop of Liverpool, the Chair of the Wycliffe Council. Further, the Bishops’ Committee for Ministry has set in place a process to inform itself regarding the situation at Wycliffe. A small team of independent advisors, drawn from current Senior Inspectors, will report to the Bishops’ Committee for Ministry, which can then take any further action, if required.” See http://www.thinkinganglicans.org.uk/archives/002497.html So, what did the advisors advise and what further… Read more »
“David Way is a staff member at the Ministry Division. All Colleges have a Min Div person on their governing body. I understand he does not attend many Council meetings – but if that is incorrect, someone can easily correct it.” I have been trying to find out an answer to this question posed by “f” in a thread below. I have now heard from Church House and it seems that Dr Way has not been a member of the Wycliffe Council for “six or seven years” and that “we will be asking AGAIN for them to remove him from… Read more »
Just to avoid confusion: the Ministry Division inspection is unrelated to the University’s own inspection: the Bishop’s concern is the quality of the formation of ordinands, whereas the University’s concern is principally about what kind of education the undergraduates are receiving at the PPH’s. I’ve spoken about this with a number of dons who have grave conerns, but are adamant that the University will only act in respect of the latter, not the former. It is good that Vibert is communicating, even if indirectly through the press. But he clearly has his head in the sand: this isn’t about wanting… Read more »
When they do the review, it would do well to remember that some souls will only put forward their best examples. Some build a facade down the main street and keep the journalists away from the filthy alleys behind it. Others hang around to ensure they only talk to scripted representatives. Remember, collecting winners of lottery ticket always thinks the lottery is a good thing. It doesn’t hurt to ask the people who didn’t win what they think too. The same as when we are looking at justice in this world, it’s not enough to ask the “winners” if the… Read more »
I think the people posting here (except NP) are missing the point. It may well be that Principal Turnbull and Bishop James Jones are poor managers. They may well have got rid of some people that seem to have been well liked and maybe they did cut a few corners along the way. But let’s get a sense of perspective here. They have restored the Biblical idea of the subordination of women to men to Wycliffe Hall. They have reversed the liberal trends of the previous regimes which actually encouraged women to think of ordination. That’s what REALLY matters. Biblical… Read more »
Will, you have done for us what we could never have done for ourselves. Thank you.
Will Prynne wrote: “restoring the Biblical idea of male headship to its proper place. Well done, Wycliffe!”
The only “proper place” for male headship and half-baked other literalist misogynistic ramblings is firmly in the bin!
Why not complete the set Will and get back to the “biblical” interpretations on Slavery too?
(and I know I shouldn’t respond to such obvious trolling, but I can’t help it).
Will says he is “thrilled to see that he has now nailed his Biblical colours to the mast”
I guess you would prefer it if he nailed them to a fence or got some ditched his biblical colours altogether?
“Will says he is “thrilled to see that he has now nailed his Biblical colours to the mast”
I guess you would prefer it if he nailed them to a fence or got some ditched his biblical colours altogether?”
Sorry, NP, who are you replying to here, and what are you saying?
Things have moved so much that you would think the posting by Will Prynne was an exercise in irony. Then follow the link and the irony goes very dry. And we might think NP was bad enough with his surface rigidity. If Will Prynne is taken at all seriously by anyone, then matters must be in a serious state. Surely even the cackhanded and theologically inspired management at Wycliffe Hall can’t agree with this stuff. Or am I being duped: is the website http://www.fows.org/ the sort of spoof I could use some spare time creating for which some humour could… Read more »
Interesting, as Bishop James Jones certainly does support women’s ordination and actively ordains women in Liverpool diocese.
Has he changed his mind? Perhaps someone should contact him and ask him to clarify. The Liverpool Echo would certainly be interested if he has altered his stance!
I still can’t figure out if this guy’s for real – he posted on Fulcrum as ‘IloveMLJ’ (MLJ, apparently, is Martyn Lloyd Jones: a hugely popular evangelical firebrand of the mid-c20th) and we were all convinced he must be a hoax. Looks like NP thought so too. If he is genuine then William Prynne, the c17th Puritan pamphleteer, seems like a suitable pseudonym. This was the man who couldn’t stop harrassing women: he had his ears cut off after his denunciation of stage actresses in 1633; was wont to collect the stories of debauched nuns; and in 1660 supported the… Read more »
I have had enough. I propose to Simon that Will Prynne be invited to fill the roll of resident troll. He is so much more authentic – the real thing – rather than the whimpering and whining we have come to associate with NP, who since he abandoned posting under his own name has also abandoned much grace, decency and manners – if that’s the sort of “advantage” you purchase by anonymity then it’s obviously not worth having. Besides everything else this NP persona has become repetitive, boring and predictable – it’s time he had his cards! Will Prynne looks… Read more »
I seriously doubt that http://www.fows.org/ is in any sense a spoof, but I do rather doubt that the commenter here who on this occasion used the name Will Prynne, but has posted here previously using other names, has any connection at all with the owners of that site.
Thank you Sarah for reminding us who Prynne was.
” …… since he abandoned posting under his own name.” You have my attention, Martin, and I suspect the attention of a few others.
I felt the reply you published from the Bishop of Derby was actually quite disturbing. If the Bishop of Norwich has been ‘in close contact’ with the Bishop of Liverpool, has he also been ‘in close contact’ with the people who have been trying to get through to the Bishop of Liverpool – Revd David Wenham, Eva Johns, Clare MacInnes to name a few? Has he been ‘in close contact’ with Elaine Storkey and Andrew and Lis Goddard? And if he hasn’t, has he just got their story and the story of what has been going at Wycliffe from the… Read more »
It is a shame to see that Biblical truth is now dismissed as ‘trolling’. I have heard that this is a website for liberal Churchmen, but I wasn’t expecting to find the Bible mocked. As NP says quite rightly on another thread ‘we cannot deviate from scripture to suit a few people – we trust the Writer of scripture first.’ We are living in times when we must look to the Godly remnant in the Church who are holding fast to the perfect Word of God. Principal Turnbull and Vice-Principal Vibert are finally turning back the tide of encroaching liberalism… Read more »
let’s not just laugh or get angry at will prynne. he has done us a service by directing us to the site http://www.fows.org/ it’s well worth having a look there. one of the first things you’ll notice is this : FWS Chairman Simon Vibert has been appointed vice-principal at Wycliffe Hall Theological College, Oxford. then read on and see what is says about women, and pastoral strategy and redemption theology. there is no doubt that the appointment of vibert to WH is the clearest possible indication, coupled with the turnbull speech to reform, that WH is now chosen as the… Read more »
“…has posted here previously using other names…”
Ah, the “masses” who are in revolt of the liberals.
Now it is starting to look like Home Alone or Bedknobs and Broomsticks where they have to prop up cutouts and fake soldiers to pretend they are a greater multitude than they really are. Or is it a Sybil thing where one or another personality is in ascendance on any one day?
The gap between Korach camp members and others grows wider again. Don’t you just love God’s patience?
I’m getting fed up too. I’m asking myself what am I doing even associating myself with opinions that can be of the sort that this so called Will Prynne can justify. I think I want a punch up. Look Will Prynne, NP and all the like, the New Testament of the Bible is an example of an authentic religious moment that indicates something of ethical value in a situation. Its particularity is just one example of many throughout the world, in religions and in what people just do. If you find that dismissive of the Bible, then tough – some… Read more »
Martin says “Besides everything else this NP persona has become repetitive, boring and predictable…”
And you are not, Martin?
If we are to listen and debate, we will be repeating our beliefs many times- will we not?
Do you prefer no opposition to liberal views on TA?
Is “listening” to be a one-way exercise?
Pluralist
I’ve started to have dicussions that don’t address each and every point raised by certain parties.
Otherwise, it is like with terrorist bombers, if you make peaceful dialogue dependent on the last bomb exploded, all they have to do is one more to stop peaceful discussions happening.
Please keep engaging with the positive souls, and don’t allow the negative ones to control the agenda. You can not win with them because they are a closed book, but I love your postings and humour and want to see that continue. 🙂
Pluralist “We could be having a set of conversations relating to a range of views that are approximately liberal – liberal evangelical, liberal Catholic, plain liberal, radical, mixtures, don’t knows – supporting people who are gay and supporting women (for goodness sake) where a Church community is a microcosm of building a just society.” I don’t think this is possible in principle, on a news driven forum like TA. As long as the news is gay dominated, our conversation here will continue like a ping pong ball, never straying far from the core of the disagreement. But it’s a wonderful… Read more »
Erika
I’ve loved watching your postings over the last week or so. Welcome Back. Pluralist does some great graphics and has his own website (click on his name).
That said, there are times where it is confusing as to what is the best way forward.
I appreciate both of you and pray that you both find media that suit the gifts and talents God has bestowed on both of you, even if they are different from each other. 🙂
Thanks, Cheryl, for your kind words.
And thanks for the tip about Pluralist’s blog. It’s ages since I’ve been to his site and it’s changed quite a bit since. Brilliant!
Pluralist asks: “Surely even the cackhanded and theologically inspired management at Wycliffe Hall can’t agree with this stuff?” I’m afraid it appears much of the management does. As Poppy points out, a glance over the FOWS website tells us proudly that their Chairman Simon Vibert has just been appointed Vice Principal of Wycliffe Hall. Will Prynne seems to offer some evidence for the kind of views that Vibert supports. Furthermore, the Latimer Trust, an organisation that operates as very nearly a woman free zone, is now sponsoring studentships and Research Fellows at Wycliffe, with the proviso that award winners must… Read more »
Matthew B You quoted “Within the church there is a divinely appointed order in which headship roles are given to the male. Not for the purpose of domination over the female, but in order to protect and nourish the body of Christ.” I wonder how much of that was to do with legal implications. Namely that women (particularly married) had no legal entity until mid/late last century, so if a woman was “in charge” there was no one with legal stature to protect the institution. From that framework, male authority came not from their competence, but expediency to ensure the… Read more »
Matthew B,
Interesting quotes. I would argue the sacerdotal nature of the priesthood is as much a part of the Divinely appointed order, ewven far moreso, than any sense of men being the boss. The second and third atatements you cite are not in anyway Anglican. Fine if they don’t claim to be Anglican.
Cheryl: I wonder how much of that was to do with legal implications? ‘Namely that women (particularly married) had no legal entity until mid/late last century, so if a woman was “in charge” there was no one with legal stature to protect the institution. This is an interesting question. In the pre 19th century context even having legal status meant little if the Crown wished to dissolve the estate (see Thomas Cromwell). But through the structure of freeholds and glebe land that developed in England, each parish did operate financially as an autonomous unit. Changes to this structure would have… Read more »