Thinking Anglicans

women bishops: after the synod debate

Michael Brown wrote at Religious Intelligence about the FiF meeting following the February synod sessions, Anglo-Catholics warned of split threat in UK.

There is considerable audio material of that meeting available here.

Anglican Mainstream carries an article by Roland Mourant What Future Strategy should Forward in Faith UK adopt?

Earlier, the Church Times had an article by Paul Vallely headed Squaring up to the traditionalists (This was only partly about the CofE.) It provoked letters to the editor the following week.

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choirboyfromhell
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choirboyfromhell

Funny how those who wish to model the “catholic” side of Anglicanism seem to be most like the “protestants” in their tactics, or in the case of parishes withholding their assessments, “congregationalists”.

This is a fight that died hard in the USA, but it surely will, and going backwards in bigotry will take you far from God.

Sara MacVane
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Sara MacVane

Tha Anglican mainstream article seems to have been air-brushed, …. or ….

Robert Ian Williams
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Robert Ian Williams

Anglican Mainstream is a front for Reform and its agenda is also against women bishops as much as homosexuality.

As for FIF…Oswald Clark at 91 received a standing ovation…at 91 says everything.

Father Ron Smith
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Father Ron Smith

“If FIF terminates its longstanding aim in trying to get a settlement for traditionalists by synodical means, what could take its place? The response has to be direct action, a type of action that has been used effectively in North America and elsewhere.” – R.M. Virtue on line – Mr Roland Mourant, writing for so-called ‘Virtue on Line’ – copied to web-site of so-called *Mainstream*, surely signals his idea of the way ahead for F.i.F. and other *Traditionalists* as being a possible way through for them to follow, like lemmings, the way of ACNA and other dissidents in USA and… Read more »

JCF
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JCF

To paraphrase the country song, how can we miss them if they just won’t go? ;-/

toby forward
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I completely disagree with what Oswald Clark said, but, I disagree because he is wrong, not because he is 91.

It is unpleasant and foolish to suggest that a 91-year-old has no wisdom to pass on. On the other hand, as I have often noticed, it is a sad thing to grow old and not to grow wise.

Rev L Roberts
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Rev L Roberts

I listened to all the talks and comments on the ‘Forward in Faith’ site. I tried to listen sympathetically and with empathy. I did find it very interesting. But I find I really don’t trust FiF as a constituency — I am not sure how sincere they are. Some of the individuals also leave me doubtful. I don’t know if I am being unfair — I don’t think so. True, I am influenced by my disillusionment with anglo-catholicism. I find their stance on (their own) gayness dishonest (understatement), and in that context I find the camp asides (sharing a jaccuzzi… Read more »

john
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john

Excellent comments, LR. One good thing seems to me the public revelation that they too are at sixes and sevens. We have a FiF guy in our church. He and his wife (not FiF) are really excellent members, and when a woman celebrant comes, he just absents himself. He is, however, tremendously exercised that ‘justice be done to the traditionalists’, by which he means separate jurisdiction. I think the separateness has been a real problem. Many don’t really see themselves as C of E. The constant sycophancy to this most unlovely Pope is pretty revolting – and itself excellent justification… Read more »

rose gaudete
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rose gaudete

L Roberts, were you at the meeting? If so, you must have been asleep! Please note: 1) “Gayness” was not discussed – it is others who seem to want to bring sex into everything. 2) The speaker joking about the jaccuzzi was sending himself up – he had been on holiday at the time of the previous assembly and so had been listening in on line – literally on a beach, by a pool & in a jaccuzzi by virtue of an iPod. 3) Sr Anne was by no means the only female voice – of particular mention was Emma… Read more »

david malloch
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david malloch

Michael Brown’s article is more than a little misleading. The FiF assembly showed a remarkable degree of unity – everyone totally agreed that the proposed code of practice was totally unacceptable and that only a structural solution will do. Furthermore, there was a motion passed in 2006 stating that when final legislation is produced, if it is not satisfactory, quota should be witheld (on the simple basis that people are not going to fund an organisation which is not going to provide for them). The differences of view relate to whether or not the synodical process is likely to deliver… Read more »

john
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john

David,

Your view is one. Another is that of Jeff Steel (hardly an eirenic personality), who on his blog immediately after the event said that there didn’t seem to be unity.

On withdrawal of parish share, I strongly suspect that, if and when FiF priests propose this, in many cases they will find that their PCCs and parishioners won’t support them. There is this general assumption of simple polarities -‘traditionalists’ vs ‘liberals’ – and of united blocks within these polarities which simply doesn’t seem to me to correspond to frequently messy realities.

Erika Baker
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Erika Baker

“if it is not satisfactory, quota should be witheld (on the simple basis that people are not going to fund an organisation which is not going to provide for them).”

Blackmail shows remarkably scant respect for the polity of ones church.

Wouldn’t it be more honest to leave an organisation one has lost respect for?

Robert Ian Williams
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Robert Ian Williams

Any separate accomodation would have to place FIF and Reform together..as no one in their right mind would have two separate anti-women jurisdictions. Just imagine the resulting fight over liturgical practice and Marian devotion. However Reform people have stated they do not want to marginalised into an Anglo-catholic sect. The diocese of Chichester would be decimated by a move to the separate jurisdiction. How much of it would be left, if a pro woman diocesan bishop was appointed . the effect of Bishop kemp and the present occupant wil be felt for many years to come. Why be inclusive of… Read more »

Father Ron Smith
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Father Ron Smith

“Furthermore, there was a motion passed in 2006 stating that when final legislation is produced, if it is not satisfactory, quota should be witheld (on the simple basis that people are not going to fund an organisation which is not going to provide for them).” – David Malloch – With all due respect, David, if such a course has already been taken by the F.i.F sodality, then this clearly indicates that opting out from the Church of England – on the basis of withholding the contributions of the various congregations involved – appears to be the option preferred if you… Read more »

JCF
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JCF

“There is a third province for the Anglo-Catholics..and its called the Roman Catholic Church. – Posted by Robert Ian Williams”

{Take a picture of it}

I am in whole-hearted agreement, RIW! 😉

[Now, please to EXIT the medieval Ecclesia Anglicana parishes, for the 19th c. (and later) Roman constructions, thank you!]

Father Ron Smith
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Father Ron Smith

David Malloch, and everyone in F.i.F. who really wants to become a Roman Catholic, follow Robert Ian Williams’ constant hints on this site, and, like him, become a convert to his not-so-subtly advertised ‘Fourth Province’ – the R.C. Church (in, not of) England.
But, please don’t take the property!

JPM
Guest
JPM

Does Rome really want a bunch of people who have spent decades rebelling against their bishops and only might want to come to Rome in the first place because they oppose women’s ordination?

The Romans are not fools, you know.

Robert Ian Williams
Guest
Robert Ian Williams

Ron , we had to concede all claims to the property as a prerequisite to the British Parliament granting Catholic emancipation in 1829.

Rev L Roberts
Guest
Rev L Roberts

L Roberts, were you at the meeting? If so, you must have been asleep! Please note: 1) “Gayness” was not discussed – it is others who seem to want to bring sex into everything. 2) The speaker joking about the jaccuzzi was sending himself up – he had been on holiday at the time of the previous assembly and so had been listening in on line – literally on a beach, by a pool & in a jaccuzzi by virtue of an iPod. 3) Sr Anne was by no means the only female voice – of particular mention was Emma… Read more »

Rev L Roberts
Guest
Rev L Roberts

I also found the comment of the bishop who heads up FiF offensive. Talk of sin and wickedness and how there can be no compromising with it. So those who favour the ordination of women are sinful. Very unpleasant and simplistic. I also found the reference of another speaker, to the late Bishop (“Mervyn Stockwood”) and Canon “Paul Oestricher” uncalled for. Both ministers giants of faith in their own ways. Both did, and in Paul’s case still do a lot of good. Also the good bishop saw himself as standing for and with the Catholic Faith. He always used that… Read more »

Ian
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Ian

Several comments here border on being unchristian, not to say unanglican. Strange for a website with the name “Thinking Anglicans”. Firstly I’m a member of FiF, and do not wish to leave the church of my baptism, confirmation and ordination. I was ordained on the back of promises made in 1992-4 that the Act of Synod would exist “in perpetuity”. I was ordained on the back of what the church has believed for all time, if I may paraphrase the Vincentian canon. It seems punitive in the extreme to take everything and give nothing back. some charity love and understanding… Read more »

john
Guest
john

‘Firstly I’m a member of FiF, and do not wish to leave the church of my baptism, confirmation and ordination.’ That is good, Ian. It’s far from true of many FiF. From some quarters (e.g. Jeff Steel), there is this unceasing denigration of Anglicanism and unceasing celebration of a type of Roman Catholicism which few members of that denomination (at any rate in the West) any longer have any time for. To such people it seems unthinkable that there are others who are actually proud of their church – and proud also of what it is doing re WO. I… Read more »

rose gaudete
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rose gaudete

“I know the context of the jacuzzi comment -that sort of camp remark offends me, in the context of those who disemble on sexuality; and whose hypocrisy harms others. I am not laughing. (He did say he was sharing a jacuzzi with one of the bishops, and I take exception to it in this context – Given all the angst gays in the in the anglican world have been put thru.). As for those who wish to ‘bring sex into everything’, the jaccuzzi comment was a double entendre.” So, if I am in a jaccuzzi by the pool, listening to… Read more »

Robert Ian Williams
Guest
Robert Ian Williams

Whilst one cannot help but sympathise with Ian… if he gets his way there will be two castes of clergy in the Cof E , and the discrimination will be extended to the men ordained by women bishops. Such a scenario is utterly ridiculous. Women may have paut up with second class status, but I doubt if the men will. What is needed is an AB with backbone..who can say… “We have made our mind up, and we believe women should be ordained, and those who think it is heretical should leave with grace and unity. I think FIF should… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“if I am in a jaccuzzi by the pool, listening to a Ruth Rendell novel on an i pod and joke that I was in a jaccuzzi with Ruth Rendell, this implies “gayness” and makes you uncomfortable.” If it does make a person uncomfortable, that says something about what they think of gay people, no? “We have made our mind up, and we believe women should be ordained, and those who think it is heretical should leave with grace and unity.” Ah, RIW, we know that’s what you think. After all, you changed your coat to a communion where that… Read more »