Thinking Anglicans

women bishops: more views

Reuters has published an article by Miranda Threlfall-Holmes Proposed legislation on women bishops falls short.

Daily Episcopalian has published I am not a nobody by Lauren R. Stanley.

Maggi Dawn has written Women Bishops Are Tainted? And Tainting The Church?

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peterpi
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peterpi

So, if any man anywhere in a woman bishop’s jurisdiction opposes her because she’s a woman, OR if any women’s-ordination-approving male bishop is similarly opposed, that bishop’s authority is automatically reduced – and some right-thinking male bishop is taken off the shelf and comes “flying” in? Who is more radical now? Those who approve of women bishops, or those who would make wholesale changes to the role of bishop of a kind not approved for 1,900 years, just to appease those who can’t stand the notion that women are equal to men. I like Maggi Dawn’s idea of women temporarily… Read more »

Father Ron Smith
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Father Ron Smith

“Apart from the issue of process, there are very serious concerns about the substance of the proposed way forward. To set up legislation in which powers are transferred to bishops selected purely on the basis of their views on the ordination of women is invidious and unsustainable. – Miranda Threlfall-holmes – I think Miranda is correct here. she points out the undeniable fact that, if the current proposition from the Synod Revision Committee were to become the policy of the Church, they would need to submit it to Parliament. This would prove to be rather embarrassing for a government which… Read more »

David Malloch
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David Malloch

Why the assumption that opponents are male? A very large number are women. Indeed, it maybe that the number of women who leave the CofE if this provision is made will be smaller than the number of women who will leave if there is no provision.

Miranda Threlfall-Holmes
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Miranda Threlfall-Holmes

Indeed, David, it may well be that the number will be smaller – because we are loyal anglicans who, despite feeling sick at heart at what the church is doing to itself and saying about us, will probably stay, as we have done for centuries. Does that loyalty mean that our voices should be disregarded, whereas those who make dramatic tantrum-like threats to leave should be taken more seriously? As Maggi Dawn points out very well in her article, such threatening behaviour is part of a bullying culture. And as Maggi Dawn also points out, those who claim to be… Read more »

Terence Dear
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Terence Dear

I would like to nominate Sunday 31 January 2010 as ‘Stay Away Sunday’ in remembrance of “Anna, a prophetess, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.” (It’s interesting that it was Anna who preached the Good News and not Simeon.)

Ford Elms
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Ford Elms

Terrence, could we tack on a few other remembrances as well? Like Mother Mary of Egypt, a “notorious prostitute”. As far as I can see from her hagiography, she only ever attended Church on the feast of the Elevation of the Holy Cross once in Jerusalem, after paying her passage on the boat from Alexandria by providing sexual favours for the crew. After the Virgin (or rather an icon of the Virgin) kept her out till she repented, she finally did manage to get into the basilica to see the Elevation, then immediately took her basket of lentils and headed… Read more »

Rose Gaudete
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Rose Gaudete

Perhaps the best way forward would be to create a seperate province for the opponents. It would mean there were 2 ways of being anglican in England – either in the present system but with women bishops, no flying bishops and all clergy fully interchangeable. There would be a seperate, probably small, province where the opponents could take care of themselves.

I don’t buy into all the concern re parliament – rock too many boats and we get to disestablishment and legal friends tell me that if CofE was disestablished its assets belong to the crown not the synod!!

Rosemary Hannah
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Rosemary Hannah

What would we do when in a church very supportive of women’s ministry at all levels, though?

Father Ron Smith
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Father Ron Smith

“Perhaps the best way forward would be to create a seperate (sic) province for the opponents. It would mean there were 2 ways of being Anglican in England – Rose Gaudete – Indeed, Rose, that might be one way of appeasing the protesters against the Ordination of Women. But such puritanical protestation against the Church of England ought, perhaps, to call forth a little more stringent way of preserving catholic order: Perhaps the ‘New Province’ – in order to keep up with its R.C. colleagues – should insist on Celibacy, as a rule for both clergy & bishops. This would… Read more »

MarkBrunson
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There are separate province(s) for the opponents – one to suit all tastes, in fact – there’s the Orthodox province, the Roman Catholic province, the Baptist province, etc. etc. etc.

Ed Tomlinson
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there are plenty of provinces for supporters, the URC, the methodists, etc etc

Works both ways.

Neil
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Neil

‘And as Maggi Dawn also points out, those who claim to be being ‘forced’ to leave are in fact saying they will make a choice a leave; I could as well claim that this legislation ‘forces’ me to leave. It doesn’t; it confronts me with a choice to make.’ I am interested what your pastoral advice would be to someone who does not leave the CofE and yet cannot believe the ordination of women to be the will of God? Where a woman bishop is forced upon them would you have them keep quiet and pretend there is no problem?… Read more »

Pat O'Neill
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Pat O'Neill

Ed and Neil: I think it all depends on what’s most important to you in your faith and your worship. If a combination of the historic episcopate and a male priesthood is what makes or breaks it for you, then the RC or the Eastern Orthodox would seem to make sense. If it’s male leadership and protestant reformation, head for the Baptists (at least some of them–here in the US, only the Southern Baptists still adhere to a male-only clergy). OTOH, if you want the historic episcopate and a protestant reformation tradition, it would seem the Anglican path is the… Read more »

Pat O'Neill
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Pat O'Neill

Ed and Neil: I think it all depends on what’s most important to you in your faith and your worship. If a combination of the historic episcopate and a male priesthood is what makes or breaks it for you, then the RC or the Eastern Orthodox would seem to make sense. If it’s male leadership and protestant reformation, head for the Baptists (at least some of them–here in the US, only the Southern Baptists still adhere to a male-only clergy). OTOH, if you want the historic episcopate and a protestant reformation tradition, it would seem the Anglican path is the… Read more »

Neil
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Neil

Pat – my question wasn’t about where to go apart from the CofE but how both the Catholic and Reformed elements of the CofE might live together in the future now this new division has emerged. Should people just ‘pretend’ that women priest/bishops are ok when it goes against their consciences? Or avoid them? Or just not receive communion from them…or ‘holy orders’? It is an important question since the problem will not go away – even if thousands of people do leave the CofE as a result. Because many will be staying on the ‘Anglican path’ as you put… Read more »

Erika Baker
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Erika Baker

Neil The same question is asked by lgbt people, and has been asked by everyone finding themselves on one side or the other of any major debate in the past. Ultimately, we have to answer the questions I have been asking on this forum these last few days: Is there an accepted process of discernment in the CoE? If so, what is required of dissenters when discernment has been reached? If, as Anglo Catholics keep telling me, the church discerns not the individual, then I may have to accept that “my” church has moved to a place where I can… Read more »

Pat O'Neill
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Pat O'Neill

Neil: Part of being faithful to the faith you received–at least in my eyes–is trusting in the discernment processes of that faith. If that process results in women’s ordination or women in the episcopate, do you lose your trust in it? Or do you accept it, believing that the discernment process truly hears the voice of the Spirit? And, if you cannot accept that the discernment process hears the Spirit speaking on this issue, why should you accept it on any other issues, such as the choice of a male bishop, or a vote on spending issues? Are you picking… Read more »

Pat O'Neill
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Pat O'Neill

Neil: Part of being faithful to the faith you received–at least in my eyes–is trusting in the discernment processes of that faith. If that process results in women’s ordination or women in the episcopate, do you lose your trust in it? Or do you accept it, believing that the discernment process truly hears the voice of the Spirit? And, if you cannot accept that the discernment process hears the Spirit speaking on this issue, why should you accept it on any other issues, such as the choice of a male bishop, or a vote on spending issues? Are you picking… Read more »

MarkBrunson
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Exactly, Ed. And we stayed, all through *actual* abuse and disdain and worked, patiently and carefully, and it was realized we had something to say worth hearing. Now, you can stay, and work patiently within the larger community of your church, or you can leave, but we are all tired of the attempts to sabotage, derail and create this “special” section. This is a church, not a club or a restaurant or a theatre – you’re either stuck in with all of us, or your not part at all. Complain, work towards change, or shut up, but stop trying to… Read more »

toby forward
Guest

Ed Tomlinson says: ‘there are plenty of provinces for supporters, the URC, the methodists, etc etc Works both ways.’

Well, yes, except to ask the body of the faithful to leave because a few dissenters don’t want to go along with the mind of the Church is pretty rough justice, and I don’t know what he thinks the Church of England would look like, morally, spiritually or numerically if it should be composed entirely of the misogynist, homophobic rump which would remain.

Father Ron Smith
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Father Ron Smith

“I can envisage circumstances in which I might receive communion from a woman priest, just as I might from a Methodist minister – to avoid causing pain and embarrassment. And yet I would still think (privately) in both cases I was not properly receiving the sacrament as the Liturgy would be being celebrated by people who remain part of the Laity. Any advice? Posted by: Neil on Thursday One wonders. Neil, what precisely is your spiritual attitude towards the Eucharist when, for instance, you really believe the Eucharistic minister (celebrant) is not authorised by the Church which you are a… Read more »

Ford Elms
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Ford Elms

“a Nun actually dispenses the Sacrament from the Aumbry -because they don’t have enough male priests!” Now, Fr. Ron, that’s not good. It isn’t the distribution that is the problem. Or is it? The Eucharist is seen as a fourfold act: taking, breaking, consecrating(giving thanks), and distributing. Is the gender of the celebrant only significant for the third part of the fourfold act, or only insignificant for the fourth part? If a woman can distribute the Sacrament, but not celebrate it, then either gender is insignificant for the last part only, or it is significant for the thrid part only.… Read more »

drdanfee
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drdanfee

Bravo, to Maggi Dawn for pointing out that dialoguing with bullies gets tricky. The more you acknowledge their godly superiority and power, the worse we can fairly well predict, daily life will get with them squarely in charge. Add to this Anglican bullies list: Rowan Williams. He is the sharpest bully in the stack, letting the rough ones do his dirty work for him, and then mildly saying that he does not condone bullying at the same time as he depends on it to get his new covenant moving right along. A model of a certain bully Anglican sort, then.… Read more »

Father Ron Smith
Guest
Father Ron Smith

Ford, I get the drift of your argument here. I was not implying that to adminster the Sacrament was equivalent to presiding at its Consecration. I was merely trying to point out that, if there is no priest to preside at an actual Celebration of the Eucharist, this may result in a woman – a Nun is this case – mediating the Presence of Christ in the Eucharist to someone who worries about women in the Sanctuary. Actually, many R.C. Nuns nowadays, as they are expected (in an act of obedience to the parish priest) to administer the Sacrament in… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

Fr. Ron, I was thinking about the four fold nature of the Eucharist, and wondering if, possibly, administering the Sacrament IS equivalent to presiding at its consecration. What does it mean “to preside”? Does it mean the actual saying of the Dominical Words over the elements? Or does it consist in carrying out the entire four fold act? If it’s the latter, then distribution IS the same as presiding. I ‘m not making this against OOW. My point is that if it is acceptable for a woman to carry out one of the four acts, why can’t she carry out… Read more »